From the <i>Los Angeles Times:</i> California atheist Stuart Bechman, likening the climate of today to that of the McCarthy era, says he "feels stress when a major-leaguer points skyward after a hit."

Since most schools playing under Fed receive government money in some way or another, a high school player mimicking a major-leaguer and pointing skyward is apparently violating the U.S. Constitution. In the spirit of political correctness, and to avoid stressing atheists, perhaps Fed should prohibit any ballfield action that might be interpreted as acknowledging the existence of God.

There's already a Fed rule against "simulating tobacco use." They could simply add "simulating belief in God."

How are you going to create a rule and apply it to Catholic or Christian schools which their mission is to praise God? In all my post season games the Regional I was assigned had only one public school in the pairings. In my Sectional (4 different Regionals feeding into the Sectional) all the teams were Christian and/or Catholic schools. So how can you create a rule that entire conferences are made up of Catholic and Private schools? That would be a bad idea if you ask me.

Peace

You might notice that the things that have been found to be unconstitutional are mass groupings making people feel uncomfortable by their acts, or authority figures forcing people under their authority to do something that makes them uncomfortable (religion-wise).

A single player making this gesture on his own is not an any way making the athiest uncomfortable. Kind of a stupid comment, actually.

kids chanting "we want a pitcher, not a belly itcher" should be ejected because it makes fun of the large bellies of the incresing overweight/obese population in the US, and thats just wrong.

<b>increasing overweight/obese population in the US</b>

I am a medical editor, and much of the work I do involves prevention and treatment of obesity. And the problem affects us all. For example, the federal government pays out billions in Medicaid annually for treatment of diabetes and its many complications. The epidemic of obesity has turned diabetes from a relatively rare condition into a very common one.

Incidentally, from across the pond:

<b>A woman struck by a car while standing on a sidewalk on a sidewalk in northern England ran afoul of police when she described the errant driver as "fat." "I was given a frosty look and told I could have [used the term] lardy, porky, or podgy," said Mary Magilton, 54. A police spokesman cited a firm policy of "appropriate language" in police reports.</b>

Next time someone says the pitcher threw a "fat" pitch, I'm going issue a warning and suggest alternative terms. Second offense, I'll call the PC police.

I remember editing a police report years ago in which the officer had written: "One lady smashed a chair over my back, and another lady came at me with a broken beer bottle."

Yes, and "we found the gentleman lying in the gutter outside a bar."

...the player could be acknowledgeing a dead relative or friend and not God...

I really hope you're not serious with this thread, greymule.

<b>acknowledging a dead relative or friend and not God</b>

Even if he insists he is not acknowledging God directly, by pointing to the sky in remembrance of his dead relative or friend, he is still apparently expounding, or at least simulating, a belief in the immortality of the soul, the existence of consciousness after death, or some other nefarious notion that traditionally involves belief in God and could make an atheist feel stressed.

Remember, in Fed it doesn't have to be actual tobacco use. The case book says that a player is to be ejected if he has chewing gum packed into his cheek such that it could be mistaken for a wad of tobacco. So neither does it have to be actual acknowledgment of a deity. The test is whether an atheist would feel stressed by seeing it.

A guy down the street is a member of the ACLU. I'm going to check with him and see what he thinks about this violation of the wall of separation between church and sports.

[Edited by greymule on Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:06 PM]

I'll admit that I don't umpire a whole lot of High School Baseball anymore, but I try to stay current with the rules and interpretations. When the tobacco rule was first implemented, I recall some discussion about "Big League Chew" coming in a foil puch and its shredded appearance caused concern. The Illinois state interpreter stated that a tobacco like product is not candy. We can't control the packaging of the product, only our judgement.

I grabbed the Case Book and looked up the use of tobacco. Page 29 has a very good example for the coach (Sit. W) and a player (Sit. Y). The problem with the language of 3.3.1 X is that umpires that interpret tobacco-like to be anything that can be chewed are really missing the boat. Has anyone actually enforced this rule for candy?

Much like the umpire that thinks "goddam" or "jesuschrist" is offensive language, this is a silly enforcement of a pretty smart rule. [Don't do that either.]

For what its worth, I smoked and chewed as both a player and umpire. I don't anymore, and cringe when I see others starting. I worked a lot of games when home plate had juice on it from the catcher, batter or myself. It wasn't pretty.

Here is a big problem with your point of view. The NF does not govern local associations in any way. In my state all schools decide to join the IHSA. It is up to each individual school to decide if they will compete for the championships that the IHSA uses. There are also local leagues that use the NF rules by choice and use modified rules that go against written NF rules. There are also states that use rules that are very specific to their state or region. It is really pointless.

I also remember when the NCAA wanted to disallow kneeling down after TDs in football games. Jerry Farwell who was the President of Liberty University sued the NCAA over that issue and the NCAA backed off and allowed such things to be celebrated. The NCAA has much more money than the NF, so I do not see this going to court anytime soon.

Peace

I think I already covered this.

Do you remember when I had to inform Carl that the NFHS permits member associations to modify the printed rules to meet their needs? I also had to point out that the NFHS rules are mere guidelines and compliance is voluntary.

It is located on the very first page of the rule book in the box.

I take offense
 

I am very offended by the use of the terms "Goddamn" and "Jesus Christ" as swear words on the baseball field. My ears aren't garbage cans, and many of the fans feel the same way. The use of either of these phrases will certainly get you a warning for language in any youth or high school game I am umpiring. That includes adult coaches in youth games, as well. In adult leagues, hey, do whatcha like, as Humpty would say.

On the other hand, people who have a problem with athletes pointing to the sky have way too much time on their hands, and need to worry about more important things.

I also have zero respect for anyone associated with the ACLU, or the "Anti-Christian Liberties Union", as I like to refer to it. It has never really been an organization concerned with civil liberties, but rather the taking away of such liberties. The ACLJ, or American Center for Law and Justice, is much more supportive of the rights of all Americans.

This is a joke right?

Maybe, for health's sake, Stuart Bechman should not watch baseball.

I wonder if:
* The batter just looks up, does that upset Stuart Bechman?
* The batter points the bat down, does that upset Stuart Bechman?

Maybe Stuart Bechman lacks a life and is desperatly looking for attention.

From the cheap seats...
 

Steve - I can appreciate your honesty but take a step back and look what you are saying. You are injecting your Christian based morality into a game. Invoking or thanking the Lord is okay, using his name in vain isn't? Come on, we have Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists and the like all playing our favorite game. I've umpired plenty of games with non-native English speakers and didn't know what they were saying - offensive or not. Would you warn or eject a kid for saying, "holymoses", "allah" or "mohammed"?

Around here, if a player curses at himself we usually ignore it - unless he screams it, of course! If a varsity second baseman, while tying his shoelace, breaks it and mutters "goddam it", are you reallly going to warn him about his language?

I've heard some of the most foul on-field language from so called Christian school athletes. I've never melted or had to go wash my ears out after those words. They are, after all, just words. When they are directed at me or an opponent, they take on new meaning and I've bounced kids for gestures too. But they've always crossed the line when using them and they knew it.

Some of us are fortunate to live in more tolerant environs. Mixed ethnicities and religions don't afford us the luxury of Sunday school marmism. We make the calls and ensure that the game is being played fairly. My job is not to ensure that they get into heaven or not. If Junior wants to invoke Allah's name, I don't care. Well, as long as he's not wearing a backpack when he yells it.

i worked a weekend series once where one of the away players would always write the initials of someone right outside the batters box before the first pitch of every at bat, and he pointed to the sky in the second game after a home run. i would guess he was pointing to whoever's initials he wrote before the at bats.

i also work games for a team where their backup catcher always writes some initials with his front cleat right where he stands, after he throws to second. never noticed any pointing, but a lot of players point or do things "god related" with the intention of dedicating whatever the did/are doing to that relative.

not saying grey mule doesnt know this, or doesnt agree, just throwing out a few situations ive encountered like that.

Re: From the cheap seats...
 

No WWTB, I have no problem with someone reverently invoking the name of their diety, such as Allah, or Mohammed. I am talking about swearing. Holy Moses is not swearing any more than is holy smoke, or holy cow. And yes, it is okay to thank the Lord, and it isn't okay to use His name in vain. I found that in the Big Rule Book. In fact, it was Moses that wrote that section.

Also, I am refering to them screaming the curses, not muttering to themselves out of frustration. I'm certainly no saint myself, and I don't act like a cop on the field. I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've heard the "F" word as I'm heading back to 'A' after the batter has flied out! As long as he doesn't make a big scene, I don't say a word. But if he screams it out to where it can be picked up by a small child watching the game, I simply say, "hey, watch the language", and that usually takes care of it.

Now cussing me personally, well.....that's a horse of a different color. Pack your bags, because you're going on a little trip!

Edited for spelling as to not offend the grammar police:D

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Nov 14th, 2005 at 08:30 PM]

Re: Re: From the cheap seats...
 

The problem with that logic is that not everyone believes in THE BIG RULE BOOK! In fact, there are other BIG BOOKS out there! Your morals have no place on the field. Do you eject a kid for saying, "for christsakes" when his teammate drops another flyball? What happens when you warn him to knock it off and his coach hears that and asks for an explanation? Do you pull out a bible?

Moses didn't write any section, but I digress. If a Jew says "jesuschrist" (please note, that I have used lower case letters in both posts), it is not taking the name of his God in vain. If I say, "allah" when a ball is dropped, it is the same thing. You don't want to be a cop out there, but you are acting like a preacher. Religious beliefs have no place on a non-secular baseball field.

Your welcome to your opinion WWTB, but many disagree. My assignment secretary, who has over 50 years in this association, and has seen it all would disagree with you. He has stated to me that the two words that would get you run, are "goddamn" and "jesuschrist". And this is coming from an ex-boatswain's mate who cusses up a blue streak, and is the biggest liberal I have ever met. So, it is not just us right-wingers saying the same thing. Notice I had said that only if the language was screamed louldly, would I even warn someone.

Out here W, we have coaches that will write you up if you say the word sh*t in a conversational manner. They will go to your board and say you were swearing on the field. I've said "Coach, that's a bunch of bullsh*t, and you know it", and gotten ratted out. So, it goes both ways. We don't allow a lot of cussing at the youth ball level. Period.

Oh, and Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
Exodus 20:7 is the location of the name in vain rule.
By the way, this is a predominately Christian nation, as it was founded. Just read any major document from the era of our nations birth, and it is beyond obvious that God was intended to govern every aspect of our lives. I'm not preaching, just citing history.

So tell us Windy, how are we supposed to determine what is profane and what is not?

The very definition of the word describes an irreverance toward God, does it not?

You'll find words like, unholy, heathen, pagan, and vulgar in the definition of profane.

You'll also find the word obscene in the definition of profane. That would include, offensive, lewd, abominable, disgusting, and repulsive.

It would seem to me that the definition of what constitutes profanity gives us a heck of a lot of latitude when it comes to inserting our "moral values" into the equation.

If they use the words "jesuschrist" or "goddamn" in a game that I'm working, they have offended me, and that's enough for me to send them to the showers.

Tim.

Steve,
I am not directing this post to you and do not need another reply. I've witnessed your arguments and need a respite.



Others:
Did I miss the lesson on Moses writing any part of the Bible? Further, I checked the Bible and the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. He didn't write those either.

We live in a Christian based society and have a strong moral presence in the White House. I could not find any mention of Christianity in any baseball rulebook. Do you know of any?

How many of you would eject a player for muttering "goddamn", "jesuschrist", "allah", "satan" or "notitia"? What if they yelled one of those things in exasperation but it was directed at themselves or a teammate?

How many of you are really worried about what coaches think?

For the record, I'm a christian but not an evangelist. I keep my personal life off the ball field and expect the coach and contestants to do the same.

It would seem to me that the player is exhibiting his constitutional right to free speech under the first amendment, but then I'm no lawyer either. I don't see how he is violating the constitution.

<b>It would seem to me that the player is exhibiting his constitutional right to free speech under the first amendment, but then I'm no lawyer either. I don't see how he is violating the constitution.</b>

Of course you are right, DG. I began the thread with the post about the crackpot who wants some kind of redress because he feels "stressed" when a ballplayer points to the sky. I facetiously suggested that Fed will have to institute a new rule to suit the sensibilities of such people.

However, the fact that so many people took me seriously is an indication of how far America has sunk in efforts to avoid making anyone feel uncomfortable or, rather, to accommodate every screwball who thinks the U.S. Constitution guarantees him the right not to feel "stressed." I see where a school district has banned witch costumes on Halloween because they don't want to permit, in the school board's words, "the Christian sexist demonization of pagan religious beliefs." (Oops, that was in Canada, but the same kind of thing goes on in the U.S., where kindergarten classrooms are forbidden to put decorative snowflakes on the windows or use red and green napkins at that unmentionable time of the year that centers on the 25th day of December.)

I wonder whether the crackpot who doesn't like to see players point to the sky knows what he is really saying when he bids someone "goodbye."

W Blue, don't hand me that "I'm not directing this at you" crap. You most certainly are, since it was I who posted the Moses reference, not the "others".

Moses, who wrote in the third person, wrote the book of Genesis in approximately 1445 B.C. He did not have a ghost writer. Ask any bible scholar, such as Jack Van Impe, or R.C. Sproul. And I never said that Moses created the Ten Commandments, as they were given to him by God.

End of discussion for me.http://media.scout.com/media/image/19/190046.gif

I really didn't want to hear from you about this again. You have made it painfully clear where you stand and I don't see too many people rushing to your side, for christsakes.

I called my cousin and asked him. He laughed when I asked if Moses wrote any part of the Bible. He asked if I thought he also made the crop circles?

My cousin just celebrated twenty eight years as a Roman Catholic priest. He is pretty qualifed to speak about the Bible. The Old Testament is the accepted part of the bible to the Jew. I'll ask them about the ghostwritten first five books. I'm pretty sure I know the answer.


DG and Greymule,

I agree that this is foolhardy at best. I don't care what side of the aisle you sit (it seems obvious, though), this is a conservative politician's wet dream. "BANNING GOD FROM OUR SPORTING EVENTS? NEVER!!!!"

This is not giving the finger or a throat slash, he might be pointing up at God, a cloud or a mosquito that buzzed by his ear. Who cares? Six calls to make, let's get them right and go home. I need a cold one!

Personally, I think the vast majority just do this for show. I don't think they have any religious agenda at all. They've seen their "role models" do it on TV. The way America is today, Jesus would have people all over his butt for being too much of a liberal.

All "Allah" means is "God." The word is not specific to Muslims or only used by Muslims.

The funny thing about religion is the fact that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same tenants of morality, they just do not believe in whom God is and when he arrived. Jews believe that God has not come to earth and any human form. Christians believe that Jesus came to wash away their sins. Muslims do not believe Jesus was their Lord and Savior, but that Muhammad came to earth to teach the word of God (It is obviously more complicated than that, just work with me on this one). So any discussion of religion and values are going to be all over the place. Let alone the many Christian religions that do not even practice the same way. I am as Christian as they come but I do not worship the same way as a Catholic or understand all the ways they worship. Should I get upset at a player that does something that is not supported by my way of worship too? See where this can go. What about those religions that Native Americans believe in or other spiritual understanding. I have always found it silly that Christians get so upset over what happens in their religions and do not understand what might be offensive in other's religions, then want to take that crap to the field, court or diamond to penalize infractions based on their personal religious actions.

Peace

Then I suggest that when you see this, Mr. Bechman, you stick the index finger of your right hand up your a$$ and twirl it around until you see the light!

It is not a violation of the US Constitution. We forget that those who wrote the Constitution were religious men themselves. This whole BS about religion being offensive is just that - a bunch a BS from a bunch of whiney, pi$$heads that only think of "me, myself and I". These people cannot function in society because they are always "offended" by one thing or another. Well I say take all the offence you want but leave the gate!

Funny, people seem to be offended by the words God and Jesus Christ but when the end comes you would be suprised how many of these pi$$heads that denied God all their lives, call on Him to stop the pain when the end comes!

You are 100% correct. The interesting thing is, back in the day, roughly 2000 years ago, people were all over his butt for being too liberal, and going against the "institution" of the church. They even killed him over it.