If the force is not removed, then you aren't calling him out. (Conversely, if you're saying he's out when he enters the dugout, then by definition you've removed the force ... and if you can't buy that, what would you say if for some reason the runners returned to 1B and 2B after seeing you call the batter out - if the batter is out, there is no reason they can't return... thus no reason to call them out on a force play).

PS - the proper ruling on a BB is to get him out of the dugout and send him to first. You only have an out there if he simply refuses to take his awarded base.

I'm not missing your point. I'm trying to get you to think it through, but I'm failing.

Let me ask it this way - what rule in FED tells you to call the batter out for entering the dugout after a base on balls? Quote it if necessary.

And don't confuse Abandonment with Desertion. Abandonment cannot be called on a BR who has not yet reached first base... so by what rule are you calling BR out if he enters the dugout on, say, a dropped pop fly to CF?

Also, I will ask this, in effort to steer...

If you are calling the BR out for stepping into the dugout on a dropped pop fly to CF, why could the runners not return? (And if your answer is that they could... then obviously there's no force). Conversely, if you are keeping the force in play, then how do you justify calling the BR out for entering the dugout (or... would you let BR leave his dugout to go to 1st base after seeing CF drop the ball?) You can't have it both ways.

I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as the dilemma this problem presents for the umpire.

I don't think you can support it (by rule) either way.

Rick Roder has an interesting book that I read a while back entitled "More Than 100 Problems With The Official Baseball Rules". So, quite clearly, not everything is covered in the rules and, worse yet, not everything is necessarily covered by an Official Interpretation. Some things are not even covered very well by an Authoritative Opinion.

This may be one of those awkward cases.

It seems to me that the best way to handle this might be as follows.

The force plays stay intact with total disregard as to WHEN the BR enters the dugout. If the defense continues to make a play on the BR, by touching the bag, then the BR is out in the normal fashion and the umpire doesn't have to be concerned with any of these complications.

If the defense fails to make a play on the BR, and the BR belatedly makes a beeline for the bag, the play should be allowed because, clearly, the defense has had their chance and has failed to make a logical play against the BR. If the BR arrives before the bag is touched - he's safe! The BR has gained no advantage by belatedly going for the bag from the dugout. The defense has simply failed to make a logical play.

If the defense fails to make a play on the BR, and the BR remains in the dugout and all action has ceased - the umpire should NOW interpret this as desertion and the BR is now OUT regardless of any subsequent action. The BR has had ample time to realize his mistake and has failed to take action and is no longer given the opportunity to rectify his mistake.

Again, this is based on nothing more than MY OPINION of what might seem a logical and fair way to handle this but I am hardly anyone who can offer an Authoritative Opinion.

In other words, it's MY opinion ... not an AUTHORITATIVE opinion. :-)

My logic is this: The penalty for desertion can be delayed until all continuous action has ceased and the BR, by his <i>lack</i> of action, has made it clear he has no intention of advancing to 1st. At *that* time he forfeits his opportunity to rectify his mistake.

This way of handling it is somewhat consistent with the delayed nature of calling abandonment. Although the RULE states that the runner has to merely leave the baseline and demonstrate no desire to advance on the bases - if I recall correctly (and I could be wrong), the Authoritative Opinion on abandonment has a somewhat higher standard of what constitutes sufficient abandonment to warrant calling the runner out. In practice, the umpire should require the runner to leave the field of play, or, be a "substantial" distance from his position on the basepaths before declaring him out - as opposed to merely "out of the baseline."

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this Authoritative Opinion. I could be.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Note that in none of my commentary did I actually say what I would do given this exact situation. My solution is the same as David's.

I can't see a rule justification for calling BR out for desertion while a play is continuing, so I would both A) keep the force plays in tact, and B) allow BR to exit the dugout should he realize his mistake. If he's still in the dugout when play ceases, THEN I would call him out.

Are these errors in the FED rules, or are you speaking of the 237 errors that Jim Evans has identified in OBR?

A) From who did the certified answer come from? I'd love a solid answer from someone national.

B) By what rule are you calling the BATTER-RUNNER out for abandoning his effort to advance to first by entering the dugout?

As Usual,
 

PWL is wrong.

If what he says is true a rat would simply tell his players:

"If there is a runner on first and you hit a sure double play ground ball to the infield run into the dugout and we'll wind up with a sacrifice rather than a double play."

A batter runner entering the dugout before reaching first base DOES NOT end the force.

Sheese,

T

Wow. What a @$#%*(&. Where the @%@# did that hostility come from?

1) I was hoping that the "certified answer" you got was actually definitive, since we seriously lack a "definitive" answer here. Apparently, it wasn't. Apparently you got it from your hairdresser's sister's step-cousin who used to be married to a truckdriver that had a manicurist who was a part-time umpire. My mistake. (If it truly was Jim Evans, as you imply but do not state, then I'd like to know which rule HE's using for support, since I can't find it).

2) I'm not trying to have any cake and eat it too. You saw my response (perhaps the fact that it was written in plain English made it beyond your capabilities). There's no rule support to recognize abandonment or desertion by the BR DURING a play. I clearly stated that I would not call a BR out for entering the dugout while play still continued, and would even not rule him out if he were to run back on the field and get to first base. That is consistent within itself - no multiple cakes problem here. Since I'm not calling him out until play ceases, the force remains in effect.

This past Friday night, Jim said he had identified 296 errors in the OBR.

I haven't read the whole thread, but from the original play, I think the answer is pretty routine.

1. The B-R cannot be called out for abandoning his effort to run the bases: He hasn't yet touched first. So Roder calls that "desertion."

2. The B-R cannot be called out for deserting his effort to reach first until he enters the dugout or <i>playing action ends</i>.

Therefore:

The force on R1 and R2 remains in effect.

That is not only common sense, it's a practical way to handle this not unlikely play.

Now, if somebody already posted this "solution," I'm sorry. If somebody has already proved it wrong, tell me which post has the Tony.

Wow. At last year's desert classic the number was 237. But he did say he was still digging.

How many did he acutally identify at the clinic? I'd have to check my notes, but I think he only pointed out about a dozen or so at the Classic.

Field work was 17 hours, so he had only 4 hours on Friday night. Very little on the rules, actually. I think he mentioned four or five.

The key is - he is NOT out the second he enters the dugout. And yes, this does mean he can leave the dugout after entering while play was still continuing if he recognizes his mistake and is not physically aided by anyone in the dugout.

Well, that would work - except it's not correct. MLBUM considers a runner in the dugout to be out. If you have an interpretation source to back up your claim, I'd like it so I can put it in the BRD.

So you're saying that a BR *can* cause force plays to evaporate by entering the dugout?

I was unaware of this MLBUM ruling. Because, a strict reading of OBR does not provide for any "automatic out" when a BR enters the dugout during live action.

Roder has something called "desertion" that causes a BR who goes to the dugout to be out but he does not seem to address the timing of the out. Also, he seems to subscribe to "desertion" an <i>unwillingness</i> to advance to 1st, implying that if a BR ignorantly entered the dugout and suddenly realized he was *not* out, that he *could* emerge from the dugout and advance to 1st. I'm not sure about that, though.

I can accept that the BR is out under any condition (which is what you claim the MLBUM says), however it is the TIMING of this out that is critical in the original play.

Frankly, I don't really know what to do about this situation which is why I'm intently following the thread.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN