I haven't used an indicator on the field for a long time. During the fallball season I decided to experiment going without an indicator behind the plate. I found that:

1. My focus on the game improved.
2. Never a reason to take your eyes off the field and I focused more on the pitcher for balks etc.
3. Lost the count on only a few occaisions. And when I did I was able to figure out what it should be and found that I could more easily remember the sequence of pitches without rather than with the indicator.

Works for me and I recommend that you give it a try.

Welcome to the club!

Many MLB umps still use an indicator; for whatever the reason. MiLB are "required" to use one. (I'm talking about PU only; except for little kids, I don't know why anyone would want to use one in the field.)

Several camps teach to verbalize the count after each pitch and to show the count on the fingers for all of the "odd" counts. That way, your partner and you have an idea on what the count should be. It's especially important when there's a scoreboard involved; and the scorekeeper has it incorrect.

Jerry

Good for you! Add one person to the good side of the force.

I agree that not having the indiclickapacifier increases your focus on the game in just the ways you mentioned.

I tried using an indicator in the field the first couple of times I worked the bases. It felt odd, and interfered with a smooth looking safe call, so I ditched it. I have never used one working the bases since.

Great. Now there's going to be another round of layoffs at the WangChungChina Indiclickicator Factory...... :(

As long as some umpires persist in wearing a ball bag on the field, brushing off the bases and the pitcher's plate, and letting everyone on the field know what the count is . . . there will be jobs aplenty for the employees of Wang Chung. Everybody have fun tonight!

Jerry

Personally, I can't understand why an umpire *wouldn't* use an indicator.

Why rely on your memory?

If working the indicator de-focuses you, instead of getting rid of it I'd recommend becoming more comfortable with it to the point that it's no longer a distraction.

I hardly ever look at my indicator ... EXCEPT when I can't remember the number of outs or the count which I consider pretty important.

Maybe you guys just have better memories than me.

When you screw up the count and the game participants discover that you are not using an indicator, they won't be impressed. They EXPECT you to be using one and NOT relying on your memory.

Although, I will say I do not consider this a big issue.

I would never recommend that a new/inexperienced umpire *not* use an indicator in order to help him "focus."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I can't buy that not using this simple piece of equipment is going to drastically increase one's focus. I'd be very unfocused if I was trying to replay 5-6 pitches in my head to regain the lost count.

I use an indicator, but rarely look down at it. I cut notches in the wheels for balls/strikes, so that I can read the count with thumb and index finger. For me, having the count on my fingertips allows me freedom to focus on other matters.

If going without a net works for you, great. But I don't think that going without using this simple piece of equipment needs to be encouraged.

Bluehair, your preference is personnally up to you, and you only. It will be a topic that will NEVER be right or wrong, and NEVER full agreement on. But, that fine.

As a non-user, all I ask is that you try it. I did, and haven't been able to use one for 13 years, since.

When you don't use the indaclickercounter, you tend to concentrate more on what the count is, because mentally you know that you don't have any backup to rely on. And so you become more focused in that respect. I found that, I can actually tell someone how the count was arrived at, which is far better than showing them that little crutch in your hand. You already stated that you don't look at it much to begin with.

Either way is fine, just my opinion.

David, is that "indiclicker" in the cone? If so, better have a spare.....(wink).

BP

In the instances when I have forgotten my indicator, I have never had a problem remembering the count. Sometimes when I do have my indicator, on the other hand . . .

I'm ready to give life with no indicator a try.

I've had to umpire without an indicator before and actually, I found it distracting because I was too concerned about forgetting the count/outs and, therefore, not concentrating on the game as much. Of course, that's because I was so used to using an indicator.

Or, perhaps I'm just in the early stages of Alzheimers.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I have stopped using one on bases. I will not stop using one on the plate. My left hand is pretty well trained at keeping track, and I don't look at it very often. But sometimes I need to know so I will look. It never fails me.

That is exactly the position I'm in. I always use it when I work the plate and I don't even think about it. It's such a part of my routine that, now, it is almost distracting *not* using it. It's like breathing ... I just don't think about it.

On the bases, I'm about 50/50. My decision to use it or not has much to do with what I know about the PU. If he's a sharp guy, I'll probably dispense with it altogether ... especially if there is a scoreboard at the park that seems to be competently operated. If I use it, oftentimes I'll just use it to keep track of outs and won't bother with the balls & strikes.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I haven't used an indicator behind the plate for about four years. I find it easier to lock in and remove the mask when I have to. There are occassional lost counts, but it is rare. Oddly, I use one on the bases, more to have something to play with and keep my hands occupied.

Ed H.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Emerling

Quote:

[i] ... especially if there is a scoreboard at the park that seems to be competently operated. David Emerling Memphis, TN

You mean you actually have some of those in your neighborhood. We have a stadium where the scoreboard operator is also a news writer. He likes to write articles about the officials that do the Legion games. Need I say, they are not about all of our best calls. If he was as good at running the score board as he is his mouth, well, need I say more.

Glad it works for you. But then there are those of us whose associations request that both umpires use an indicator. I really don't have a problem with using one as it is not the focus of my attention. In other words, it is a tool not a crutch. Too many umpires pay more attention to the indicator than they do to the game - enough said.

Besides, not using an indicator doesn't make you a better umpire. Many pride themselves with keeping the count in your heads and parade around with your chests puffed out. But when the count is truly lost, a coach will give you less crap if he at least sees this indicator in your hand! He'll still think you are useless but he may forget it quicker! (heh, heh, heh!!)

I only look at the scoreboard to see what inning it is - NEVER for the count. Too unreliable. I always use a counter on the plate - many years ago I lost track of the count in a Big Ten game...the scoreboard differed from my counter, and my partners were no help (thanks guys). I got the guy from each team who was charting pitches (usually a pitcher on his day off), and from that info got it correct.
On the bases, I always carry one with me, but only use it if my plate guy doesn't flash the count regularly (something we discuss in pregame), or if it's brutal baseball and my mind wants to wander. I've had plate guys lose the count and look to me for help, and when the coach says "That's not right" I just hold up my counter. Once he sees I've got it on the hardware and that I'm not guessing or blindly agreeing with my partner, he backs off.
Having said all that, I seldom actually look at my counter. I know what the count is 99+% of the time. It's that .001+/-% I like to have it for confirmation.

JJ

Diiferent Strokes for Different Folks
 

I agree that this is a personal perference, but the reason that you give for not using an indicator, is exactly the reason that do use one. I don't want to have to concentrate on keeping the count. I would rather be concentrating on what might happen on the next pitch. To me, how the count got to 2-2 is inmaterial to what might happen on a 2-2 pitch.

I also have limited mental capacity. When my head is full, there is no more room for additional info.

Diiferent Strokes for Different Folks

[Edited by bluehair on Oct 29th, 2005 at 09:27 AM]

Re: Concentration
 

Well I am not sure what the difference is between remembering a number or remembering to tell your hand to change a number, either way is acceptable and if it works for you, that is fine.

I did notice that I had to change to a larger size hat once I started to do this. But it certainly wasn't the first time I was accused of having a "Big Head".

Re: Re: Concentration
 

Maybe the hat size is my problem. Perhaps if I got one a bit looser, I could fit more in my head. Thanks for the tip :)

Personally, I always use an indicator now. I've tried to work a few games without one, and ran into some trouble when I did.

The problem I have working without an indicator is largely because of plays made on runners while a batter still has an early count.

There were too many times that a pickoff attempt lead to a rundown situation where my attention was turned to the continuing action on the runner/runners. After the play relaxed and I returned to the dish, I would look at the batter and then realize the same player was still up to bat.

Then, I would have to ask myself what the heck was the count on this guy.

Maybe I'm just feeble minded, or maybe the 70's were just too good to me!

Tim.

Don't feel bad, Tim. I've done the exact same thing and what's worse - after the rundown/play is over - I'll reset my indicator, get back to the plate area, and *then* realize the same batter is up.

I'm ashamed to say, often times I just ask the batter or catcher as if I'm just verifying but, in fact, I have no clue. :-)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Don't feel bad, Tim. I've done the exact same thing and what's worse - after the rundown/play is over - I'll reset my indicator, get back to the plate area, and *then* realize the same batter is up.

Ben dere dun dat!

Exactly the same procedure I used with or without an indicator.

"OK, we got 2-2 here, right." You'll be surprised how fast someone will speak up.

With the indicator I used to get, "Come on Blue , get into the game."

Now, "Hey Blue, if you had an indicator you would have had it right."

Coach Oxy Moron always had to get his two cents in. But it use to be fun telling him, "That will be enough, Moron."

The players are usually incredibly honest when it comes to the count and it never occurs to them to lie. I don't think I've ever had a batter and catcher disagree on the count.

Hell, with very young players, sometimes I'll come right out and ask if a marginal pitch hit them. They never lie.

If Jermaine Dye were 9-yrs-old, I would have simply asked, "Did that ball hit you?" And I guarantee you his reply would have been, "No, sir." And *I* would've got the call right! :-)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

even though I am 'only' a softball ump, I find not using an indicator incredulous- do you also not wear a cup behind the dish because youve never gotten hit in the conjones??? To also say 'I've only forgotten the counts/outs a couple of times' is close to blasephmy as far as I am concerned- there you have failed in THE most basic part of your job....

And to call those who ARE trying to do the job properly names only reinforces what I think is nothing but ego driven hubris (look it up!)-there IS gonna be a time its gonna cost ya..we drill that into our newbies in our clinic ALL the time-ALWAYS be prepared....and that includes an INDICATOR...I dont care how good your memory supposedly is..and how many scoreboards there are at the ballpark-YOUR scoreboard (the indicator) is the only PROOF of the count/outs-many times I use it to show a batter- yes, it was a strike..this thing only goes ONE way...

and on the bases it is so automatic I call an out,I click an out with the other hand,even on both ends of a DP...wow...real tough

I always wonder if those who dont use indicators are the same ones who never look at their speedometers.....or who never ask directions,as they KNOW where they are going....

I consider it a SKILL to be able to use an indicator...and walk at the same time....

If you were a cop, would you ask someone if they were speeding..and how fast they were going??

'I know I pulled you over sir,but exactly how fast WERE you going???'

yes i am being sarcastic..but ...

ASA,

Believe or not I know a couple umpires who quit wearing a cup because they felt more comfortable. Wait until they take one in the jewels!!! One of those same guys also wears base shoes working the plate. I guess he likes tempting fate, but it seems nuts to me.

If someone can work the dish without an indicator, go for it. I left mine home once, and worked the game without it, but I didn't care for it much at all.

Most umpires I know do not use indicators on the bases, but for new guys it probably is a good idea.

Earlier in my "career" I worked a JV game that I didn't feel like putting on my plate shoes. The catcher missed one that smacked my big toe head on. The poor toenail never grew back right.

Wow, I can see already that you don't let the little stupid things get you going. I am sorry for you. Please inform us of all of your other talents too, so that we can change our evil ways. It must be something about the size of the balls here, or maybe it's the water.

Listen , some of us more talented individuals have mastered your hubris skill with your indicator, and have moved on to other things. Just because your talents are limited, well, it would be a pretty strange world if we all did everything the same. I am sorry to have to break that bad news to you. I hope that doesn't upset you again though.

Have a good Day!

Indicator: To use or not to use, that is the question.

I'm a user, both as a PU and a BU. I have been using one for so long (I'm an old guy) that I rarely notice it. I remember the counts (most of the time) but should I have a momentary "old guy" moment and forget the count it's nice to be able to glance at my indicator (especially when working alone). When I'm on bases I just automatically hang on to my indicator with my thumb pressing it against my palm when making my safe mechanic. Never a problem and I'll bet you that no one notices that my left thumb is slightly under my hand.

Indicator: To use or not to use, my answer.

It doesn’t matter; do what’s most comfortable for you just don't aything that may humiliate you.

Yep,
 

You can always count on information from softball umpires.

Hey in New York do you get a new mask and gun each season?

Hubris???
 

To use one or not use on has similar faults....

You cleared it? Did you actually click up that passed ball... or not? Was that two clicks or one? Wait he swung at that; I clicked up a ball didn't I? Is my counter correct? Is my memory correct? Is this the same batter. Did I clear this before we started.

I have not used one for about 4 years. And during those years I have forgotten the count repeatedly just as I forgot in earlier years whether I clicked up the passed ball or cleared the clicker following a rundown, etc.

The counter is a crutch and it can give you false information if it is not operated correctly/methodically. What's new?

Hubris? Arrogance. Use one or don't use one, either way you can be hubristic. See, right there on my clicker. THAT'S THE COUNT. Sure it is.

The players are responsible for knowing the situation too. In fact there is nothing in written down in my NFHS responsibilities as an umpire that says I need to keep the count. I do and personnally, I do it by memory.

I've had better luck with memory than I have with memory AND a counter.

One thing I do miss with not having an idiot-clicker-thing-a-ma-bob is I used to be able to say to the first batter, "Well my clicker shows a count of 1 and 2 with 2 outs; so jump in there Batter, and think big zone."

Re: Hubris???
 

2005 & 2006 NFHS Umpires Manual (p.12)

Under VI. Plate Umpire

<font color=blue><b>"It is important that the count be known and if the board has it wrong, announce the correct count and show it with the fingers."</b></font>

Sounds like the NFHS expects the PU to keep track of the count to me. If you weren't keeping track of the count how would you know if it was ball four or strike three? You certainly have the responsibility for knowing *that*, wouldn't you say?

* * *

Forgetting to operate or failing to operate the indicator correctly isn't much different than <i>not</i> using an indicator and simply failing to remember the count/outs - is it?

In fact, sometimes I'll do something wrong with my indicator and I'll catch it because I have remembered the count and then I correct my indicator. And then, there are times when I'm not sure of the count and I look at my indicator and think, "Whew!"

Like I said, if you should ever get the count wrong (and you will!), and you are not using an indicator ... and your partner is also not keeping track ... and the two teams adamantly disagree on the count ... and they discover that you are not using an indicator ... you will have lost MORE credibility than you would normally lose for mismanaging the situation. They will think you are lazy (or forgetful) by not having the tools of your trade.

As an umpire myself, I won't think you're lazy. I'll realize that you're just one of those umpires who do not use an indicator ... by choice. But, again, that is *not* what the fans, players, and coaches will be thinking. If that's not important to you - then it's not an issue one way or the other.

Again, I don't think it's a big deal. I know umpires that do it both ways and everybody seems to do a fine job. I'm just saying that when your nightmare becomes a reality (and it probably never will - at least that's what Doug Eddings thought about his plate mechanics), the situation will be greatly magnified when it is discovered you were only relying on your memory and not using an indicator.

Like I said earlier: For an experienced umpire - do what makes you most comfortable. For a new umpire - I strongly urge you to use an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Re: Re: Hubris???
 

Hey Dave, Have you ever "lost the count" with an indicator?
I know the answer is yes. With or without if s$$t happens because of a lost count you'll look like a horses a$$ so what's the difference?

Sure I have!

The difference is that you can be either a horse's a$$ <b>with</b> an indicator or a horse's a$$ <b>without</b> an indicator.

The game participants (and fans) will think you're a <b>complete</b> a$$ when they discover you don't bother trying to keep track with an indicator and are relying only on the infallibility of your memory ... at <i>their</i> expense.

That's the reality of it.

Now, if you're the type that boldly claims, "I don't give a crap what they think!" Fine - fair enough. But it has been my experience that umpires who adopt that as a philosophy usually create more difficulties for themselves than there needs to be. I find polishing my shoes all the time an incredible pain in the a$$, yet I do it. Why?

But then again, if you're a well known, respected, and experienced umpire, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. It will just be a minor bump in the road. A rookie umpire, on the other hand, I don't think will fair as well.

So, I'll keep reiterating what I've said all along. If you're an experienced umpire, do whatever floats your boat. If you're a rookie, I <b>strongly</b> urge you to use an indicator and get good at using it so that it becomes second nature.

Hell, by all means, if your game suffers when you use an indicator - <i>throw the damn thing away!</i>

When an umpire finds using an indicator distracting, to me, that's like a violinist finding their bow distracting while playing in a concert.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 1st, 2005 at 11:46 AM]

Hi Dave:

Fortunately for me I've never been involved in a game where a controversey has occurred because of a lost count etc. Nor have I ever heard of this happening to any of my peers.
As to what fans think, I know that I generally have a 50% approval rating which I'm quite happy with. Actually I could give a "rats a**" what fans think. I'm not there to please them. Actually if I'm not noticed by anyone (except my fellow officials) I'm quite happy.

I've umpired games where I've screwed it up before, and when it was brought to my attention, it was quickly rectified. No big deal. It's usually something simple like I forget to click over the indicator.

However, I've been in games (not as an umpire, but as a coach) where the count *was* screwed up. The umpire calls "Ball 3" and our side says, "Hey, that's ball FOUR!" The PU maintains that it's only 3. Our scorekeeper agrees that it was 4 while the other scorekeeper is understandably silent on the issue. When asked, the other scorekeeper simply shrugs his shoulders. So, we ask that the umpire ask his partner who, agrees with US. That's 4. Now the umpires are in disagreement. It's a mess.

This kind of stuff can happen with or without an indicator.

Yet, I maintain, it's better to screw it up WITH an indicator than WITHOUT.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And I've seen this on several occasions.

Hi Dave,

In the situation that you described above if your scorekeeper (I'm assuming that you're the home team) and his partner agreed it was ball four and he didn't award first base than he's knuckle head. This can happen with or without an indicator. I've had this happen to me and if my partner is positive (I always trust my partner) his count is correct I'll change the count and we play on. Hey it happens to everyone.

Maybe you misunderstood the scenario.

Our team is at bat.

The next pitch is thrown.

PU calls it "Ball THREE!"

We maintain that it was ball FOUR. The batter should walk.

The opinion held by everybody was ...

Our team ... ball FOUR

Our scorekeeper ... ball FOUR

Their team ... [silence]

Their scorekeeper ... "Uh, I'm not sure."

PU ... ball THREE

BU ... ball FOUR

The bottom line is that the two umpires didn't agree.

It happens. The umpires worked it out and still got it wrong, but there's really nothing we could do about it.

It happens. And the point of my story is that I've seen this happen several times over the years. Quite frankly I never bothered to notice whether the PU was using an indicator or not but that's mostly because I didn't really care all that much about the situation. It wasn't like the game was on the line.

But *HAD* the game been on the line and it got screwed up ... at some point in the dispute I would be curious WHAT the umpire had on his indicator. If the answer is, "What indicator?" - I'm not too impressed.

What? You don't own one?

You don't think you NEED one? Apparently you DO!

To me, when things get screwed up (and I'll agree they can get screwed up with or without an indicator), it is just WORSE without an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I understood.