I was surprised at Greg Gibson's call at 2B last night. Replay showed that Biggio (Astro's F4) missed the tag on a Molina by at least 3 inches. LaRussa came out to argue, naturally, but apparently didn't ask Gibson to get help.

Is that not done in MLB? I kept thinking: surely U1 saw that there was no tag, and merely asking him would have done the trick. It was a force play and so Gibson had to watch the base, until the play blew up in his face. He was instantly straightlined. You can't blame him for the call, but why didn't he get help?

Did anyone see when the camera cut to the second baseman, the umpire coming up to him and asking him "Did you tag him" (you can clearly read his lips saying this) If he was that unsure with his call that he wanted the second basemans opinion then why did he not ask for help when he was asked to by Larussa?

good relationship ?
 

If he was asking, that's probably not uncommon.
We already had one thread messed up with it, but
there's our friend the "expected call"

I've done the same many times (just didn't get caught on camera) asking a guy did you really tag him etc.,

The good thing is they always say yes I did (g)

Thanks
David

*Disclaimer - this post is in no way intended for young umpires and they should never ask a player anything*

OK

But why not ask for help, considering the importance of the game and the fact the he was sheilded from the tag.

Why are you worried about it? For God's sake, the Cards sucked and didn't deserve to win anyway.

Boy, I can't wait for the "arm chair umpires" to complain during the World Series. Get your TIVO's ready, folks - this looks to be messy!

Wow another brilliant reply. Seems there cannot be a civil conversation and some thoughtful insight on a situation without bringing things to the standards that is criticized of other forums. I can give a rats a$$ of the play. But found it interesting with the get it right at all cost that he didnt ask for help.

Well, some veterans believe that those watching expect a certain call to be made rather than the one that actually happened. Their millieu feel that it is more important to do what is expected rather than what is fair.

Others subscribe to the Dave Yeast camp. Bust your ***, get in position and work together to call the game correctly. Major League Baseball also ascribes to this method. Sometimes egos get in the way of making the proper call.

I saw the call and it looks like that's what happened. If you see a player a dozen or more times a year, you'll establish respect for the others' honesty. It is likely that he asked him just to sell himself on the call - he's human after all and this is a pressure situation. We've all made calls that make us second guess what really happened. Maybe we were too quick or just blinded by a movement we didn't anticipate. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he was working where few of us dare to dream. He could have asked for help, but they've also been taught to offer it as a crew. Like the dropped third strike, they have subtle signals for conferencing. Maybe be 1BU didn't have a clean look.

I'll agree that it was the expected call. The replay also showed that it was the wrong call. We don't have video on many high school fields, but I've been haunted by college tapes that showed my crew kicking one. We remember the bad ones for a long time- so do those watching. A2D.

Same call second verse
 

I can probably say that the same call would be made in NCAA (even though I'm sure Dave Yeast would disagree)

So basically we're saying the umpire not only didn't hustle (to get into position), but also that he was in the wrong position?

But basically, that's his call, you don't ask for help on a judgement call where basically no one else is looking.

When you've been around the game as much as these guys, (at least I know its that way with me and they've done more ball than I) you're there, its not your call and you're not really worried about it because you know he's going to make the right call.

And I should add, a good coach knows that and is not going to ask him to "ask for help" on a basic play.

The only guy that's got the pressure is the one making the call.

Thanks
David

WWTB

Thanks for the reply, refreshing to see one thats not slamming someone. I understand the "expected call". But it also seems that this wasnt a routine "expected play - second baseman off balanced to apply a tag- So as I have been told by someone that "No umpire of any ilk would ask for help on a call that is this basic. That is the major difference between umpires that work "real" (tm) baseball and small diamond guys." I will A2D

Because, and I quote, "if he gonna be out, he's gonna be out."

If Larussa didn't ask, why would the umpire? Do you really want the game to come to this, "I got an out , unless someone else has something different."!!! How about this, "Blue, that looked like a strike, can you get help with that pitch?" "Sure coach, does any other umpire have a different call?"

Where does this need sickness for perfection, in an unperfect sport stop?

Batters hit ONLY 30% or less. Which means, pitchers are only perfect 70 - 80% of the time. Now you take in consideration errors, mental mistakes and bad days, and I bet you have a League of nothing but players that are at best around 60% perfect. They call them professionals and the best.

Now when the officials turn out to be only 95 to 98% effective, and I bet its closer to 98%. Well they call those guys Bums, that are ruining a good game.

GO FIGURE??????????????????????

Sigh!
 

One can A2D is they like, but don't tell me that, go to the one who's a little higher than us - the guy who MADE the call! Did he ask for help - no. And the call at first first the other night? no. and etc.,

Call it "real" baseball or not, (well at least the Cardinals didn't) but the Astros aren't complaining.

And, BTW, the ones who ask for help, that's the small diamond guys ... that's why you don't see it on TV!

A2D

Thanks
David

*Disclaimer for young umpires - I don't mean to suggest that umpires can't ask for help; however, on a basic call, make the call.

I saw him ask. I wonder what made him to start questioning his call.

When was the time that every call should be up for debate or opinions from partners? How do we even know that any other umpire could have given any kind of help on this call? This play was a goofy play. How many times do you see a fielder *** over tea kettle to try to make a tag? This was a tough play to call and the umpire did the best job he could. Depending on where the other umpires were on the play (I did not see the play live) it is possible they did not have a good angle to help. I just think we take this "get it right" mentality too far. You cannot get help on every call. Also remember TV has the opportunity to make calls at slow motion and different angles. This umpire had one angle and one chance at this call.

Peace

You don't have to think that umpires should get help on every call to think that Gibson should have gotten help on this one, because (a) it was a weird play where Gibson (through no fault of his) found himself out of position; (b) LaRussa came out to challenge it, and (c) Gibson was clearly wrong.

AND, this kind of play gives ammunition to those who want replay in baseball. The "get it right" mentality, whatever its defects, is designed in part to keep replay out of baseball.

I guess I still wonder what's the harm in asking? Sure, it's Gibson's call - he made it, on time, and sold it. But why not get help? "Tim, did you see the play?" McClelland: "no, I was set for the relay to first/ OR/ yes, I saw it, and he missed the tag." Either way works for me.

He believes that he made the right call. The umpire is supposed to ask for help? If his partner's had some information, I can see them getting help. You do not just ask for help if you made a call that is your call and in your area. This is not a typical "ask for help" call. This was a tag play at the base the umpire is working, you do not ask for help on plays like that. You really only get that kind of help at first base and mechanically the PU is watching the line for plays at first (pulled foot, swipe tags). That does not happen at the other bases and home plate.

Peace

As Jim Evans has noted, as many calls are called wrong after "huddles" as called right.

What happens when U2 thinks he's right, but goes to ask U3 who has a different opinion, but also thinks he's right? What assurance do we have that the new call is any better than the first? Not every instance will be black and white.

Does that matter in this ONE instance? You bet. Each time "help" is solicted outside of the normal "help" plays, it furthers the practice, encourages coaches to demand help on other, "non help" plays, encourages umpires to make calls without working as hard to get the proper look, slows down the game and does not guarantee that the right call will be made. Call it what you want, slippery slope, the camels nose in the tent...dangerous precedent.

There at times help is proper and has the best chance of getting a call right. This isn't one of them.

The imperfection of players, coaches and umpires are part of baseball. So is second guessing and griping.

Just play ball.

That makes sense. Thanks, Garth.

I'm with Garth on this one. Every time you ask for help on this type of play you're opening a can of worms. I might ask U1 for help, and with his base responsibilities he might say, "I didn't see it". Meanwhile U3 is out there rolling his eyes, doffing his cap, tapping his foot, trying to get my attention because HE saw something. So I consult with him, but just as I'm about ready to say something, the LF line umpire comes running in with another view....you get the idea. And if the coach is convinced I missed the tag, he may keep asking for me to "get more help" till HE gets the answer he's looking for.
In this play, when I was asked to get help, my reply most likely would have been, "OK, but I'm only going to ask ONE guy - the guy that I think, with my years of umpiring experience having taught me who MIGHT have valuable input based on where HE was positioned. I'll use his input to help ME make MY decision." Now remember that scenario is based on the fairy tale that I'm the MLB umpire in THAT SINGLE SCENARIO. As an NCAA or FED or LL or PONY or USSSA umpire, I will most likely do what my supervisors have instructed me to do.
Now, let me strap on my bullet proof vest real quick before I read the ensuing replies... ;)

JJ

Oh, and as to asking a player if I got the play right - I just don't ever do that anymore. Firstly, I can usually predict what the answer is going to be, based on whether the call went for or against them, and secondly, I don't need any more help second-guessing my calls. I'm already good at that!

JJ

It was the short stop who was involved in the NO TAG play, not the second baseman. Also during the replay you can see Tim McClennons body with the replay that clearly showed the missed tag. There is NO HARM in U2 asking U1 if he saw anything, especially after the train wreck call that U2 made. All the mistakes that have happened during the post season just show that Major League Baseball doesn't have 42 Umpires capable of doing games without making mistakes. All that can be asked is get help and THEN make the best call possible. All this stuff about ego and these guys are the very best so why not believe them needs to be reevaluated.

I would not have had a problem asking for help in that situation... but I would not expect to get any. U1 was likely watching the base, as BR was about to hit (or miss) it when this play happened. We, as umpires, KNOW when we did not see what we called and when we DO see what we called. Even though he thought he'd made the right call (or the expected call, mentioned here --- disagree with that too, on a play like this one, SAFE is the expected call), he also likely KNEW that he didn't actually SEE the tag. In such a case, he should be able to set aside his ego to ask if U1 (or U9) saw space between the glove and the runner.

I'm not an advocate of going for help on anything close, but when you know you're straight-lined, there's no harm in asking if someone else wasn't.

Here's my two cents. Gibson could not get a good look, not his fault. Why not call him safe unless you're certain he was tagged. If the pitcher throws the ball on target, there is no doubt. Penalize the defense for a poor throw unless you're certain the tag was applied.

I love Dave Yeast's approach which I am going to echo something he said last year in Detroit at the NCAA meeting and that was bust your a** to get into the best possible position to get the play correct. Just assume or guess, get the call right.

Furthermore, if U1 was watching this play from last night's game then chances are, he was not doing his job at 1st base unless this runner involved at the play at 2nd was the only runner on the bases.

At the risk of getting flamed ...

Why does it seem to be OK (based on several previous posts) that Gibson asked Everett whether he tagged him but not OK to get help from McClellan? Most players will tell you what they want you to call, regardless of what happened. Either ask McClellan or ask nobody, IMHO.

"Does that matter in this ONE instance? You bet. Each time "help" is solicted outside of the normal "help" plays, it furthers the practice, encourages coaches to demand help on other, "non help" plays, encourages umpires to make calls without working as hard to get the proper look, slows down the game and does not guarantee that the right call will be made. Call it what you want, slippery slope, the camels nose in the tent...dangerous precedent."



Garth - I'm not sure I've seen a "normal help play". If you have to ask for help, it's usually because something out of the ordinary happened. Contrary to your contention that it breeds lethargy, it makes everyone work harder. Do you want to be the guy that everyone always bails out?

Here's another example of umpires not wanting to change for the good of the game. So what, if coaches will be more demanding of our calls or consults? If you are ignorant of the outcome, don't let pride stand in the way of a good call. Ask and offer once the coach makes it clear that he wants you to be sure of the call. Yes, he is second guessing you, but fifty percent of those watching do that on our every call. If you are consistent and an effective communicator, this shouldn't be the dramedy that some envision.

JJ - we've both worked enough ball games with guys that'll say, "Don't come to me on a pulled foot at first - that's your call." I've also had partners tell me that they don't offer help on swipe tags at first. Usually, these are guys who appear on the local minor league umpire rosters. They believe that you should be in the position to make the call and that asking for help from 90 feet away just opens a can of worms. Again, so what? If you saw it and I ask, give me what you've got! We do that on fouls off the batter or uncaught third strikes already.

That didn't happen and as I've said, he made the call and didn't ask for help. We've already seen some bad mechanics and I'm pretty sure that this will be reviewed. These umpires did a pretty nice job. They were consistent and hustled like very few crews before. It was nice to see so little controversy in such a big series.

Would someone tell me who could see this clearly other than the umpire at second base? Forget whether help should have been asked for. Who would have had a look at this play? I doubt the plate umpire could see anything. I doubt that the first base umpire could see anything; he was watching his own base. Are you going to tell us that someone was in position or watching the play to know whether there was a tag or not? If someone was able to see the tag, why did they not help? Why did no one help on this play?

In all the mechanics I have worked, there are certain plays that would allow for help and other plays that would not allow. This is not a play that I can see how any other umpire could help. If you umpire enough, you know where your partner is located and what they are doing. You cannot ask your partner something you know they cannot help you on.

Peace

Jeff, I think you are correct in your assumption that not all plays can be assisted. Earlier in this thread there was speculation that 1BU could have helped. Obviously these umpires are very talented and believe in their abilities. We are not questioning his talent or the need for an extra set of eyes on every play.

Some of us know that despite years of training, we sometimes anticipate a call and it makes us look bad. We hustle, get the predicted angle and make our call. Then we hear the catcalls and see the manager or player arguing it with a whole lot of zeal. I'm confident in my abilities but recognize that I make mistakes and may need help. When I see the reaction and have capable partners, it doesn't hurt to ask. Thier support may be all that is required to end the query. That was my point.

It's a great game, isn't it?

This is not a defense or an indictment of this umpires ability. I am asking (which you have not answered) who could see the play clearly? It is one thing to say, "why not ask for help?" It is another to know that that call was your call and no one is going to help you no matter what.

Peace

Is this really and "if he's gonna be out, he's gonna be out situation"?

I would hope not. This was exactly the opposite -- an ususual play. I can accept that many times perception is reality, but not on the play in question.

As for the question whether he should have gotten help, I guess I'd analyze it like this. Ump must ask himself two simple questions: (1) do I need help, and (2) was anyone in better position than me to see the play? If the answer to EITHER question is no, I think the umpire has an OBLIGATION to not ask for help. Asking for help to answer the second question, where the ump thinks the answer is no, is a big bad can of worms, IMHO.

Everyone talks as though asking for help should be the default, because the game was important, etc. I disagree (other than in the situation where question 2 might be answered differently in an important game due to an extra umpire on the field).

Check Swing, Swipe Tag/pulled foot at first...etc. These are among what I mean when I use the term "normal help play." If there is another, more authoritative meaning, I am unware of it."

These are plays in which it is more normal, usual, if you will, to see partners helping out on a call. The play in question in this thread is not.


Thanks,

Okay Garth, I'll agree that those would be considered normal help plays. I was unfamiliar with that phrasing, but it appears clear what your intent was.

I think these are great discussions and help define our priorities. Some of us know when we should ask for help and when we should stand our ground. Unusual plays demand unusual mechanics...sometimes we look good,often we take a beating (regardless of being correct).

Jeff missed the point that the 1BU may have had a better view. He assumed he couldn't have and we were suggesting that he might have. We don't know for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that these guys are watching their partner's backs. Yes, he has primary coverage, but if there is no immediate play, trained eyes follow the ball. We can't help it, that little thing can hurt when we don't watch it.

Other side of it
 

And the other side of the picture is that many umpires will always agree with the "calling official" no matter what they saw or did not see just to pacify the manager.

I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me".

I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain.

Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play.

Thanks
David

Re: Other side of it
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

Quote:

[i] I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me". I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain. Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play. Thanks David

Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

Re: Re: Other side of it
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Quote:

Originally posted by David B Quote: [i] I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me". I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain. Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play. Thanks David Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

</I>

His experience. Whether he saw the tag or not is not the point, he still had the best view of the play.

I've had a similiar play and I've asked either f6 or f4 about the tag. Doesn't mean I didn't see it, just wanted to know what they saw. Maybe I missed it, but that doesn't change the call.

I'm sure this umpire has been around the block with these players many many times, just as the guys that I've asked, I knew them very well from having called them through HS and college. My experience gives me lots of leeway in dealing with the players and coaches.

A couple of others have said they would never ask a player, that's fine too. Everyone has their own style. Mine is to interact with the players during the game. That's why I enjoy the game so much after many years of calling.

When I no longer enjoy it, I'll start coaching my son's teams. (g)

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Other side of it
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Quote:

Originally posted by David B Quote: [i] I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me". I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain. Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play. Thanks David Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

This isn't poker!

This has happen to me, and basically it's telling the player hey, I made the best call I could, based upon the information that was avaiable at the time I needed to make a decision. It may not be the decision you like or dislike but it the decision were going with.

Very very seldom do good players come back and say anything except, "hey I can deal with that." Why? Because they see the way I work and that I am given my best effort. They understand that sometimes things just happen out there and no matter how hard you try, it just doesn't go perfectly. They understand the game and repect the hard work the officials give, when it's given, much much more than the media, fan and monday morning officials on the internet, ever will.

Once again, THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD!!! Some will NEVER accept this and this is not meant to be personal.

<i> Originally posted by mbyron </i>

<b> I was surprised at Greg Gibson's call at 2B last night. Replay showed that Biggio (Astro's F4) missed the tag on a Molina by at least 3 inches. LaRussa came out to argue, naturally, but apparently didn't ask Gibson to get help. </b>

Biggio has been in the majors a long time and give him credit for "selling the call".

Another F4 might not have received the same result. Yes, Greg Gibson was out of position on the play but it is his call. It should have been an "expected call" but the way the play developed, the defense proved to you that is was not EXPECTED.

Therefore, since Gibson was out of position his experience and training tell him to "look for other evidence" to aid him.

The "Other Evidence" was Biggio selling the call. If you noticed Gibson's call came after Biggio showed him the ball and sold the call. Gibson then gave the emphatic OUT signal. I give Gibson credit because even though he was out of position, he did not panic, "weighed" the evidence as best he could and then SOLD the OUT call.

We know how volatile LaRussa can get, so Gibson by giving the emphatic out call, did not get a REAL argument from LaRussa.

IMO, we as amateurs learned a good lesson.

In umpiring many games it is a fact that we are going to be out of position during the course of the season. When we are out of position and the call is OURS to make, do what Gibson did. Do not panic, "weigh" the evidence (players expression/gestures) and then right or wrong SELL the call. Even if you are wrong, for the most part you will not get a heated argument as evidenced by LaRussa.



Pete Booth

If the first base umpire is doing his job, there is a possible play at first right? Why would he be looking at a tag at second? Now if he is not looking (which I believe there was a possible play a first base), how is anyone going to help this umpire? Now I did not see the play live, I am not sure. I thought this was a hit ball and a force play at second base. If that is the case, why would the first base umpire look at second base?

Peace

Runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs. Ball hit back to pitcher, he trows to SHORTSTOP covering 2nd and throws wide towards 1st pulling SHORTSTOP off base, who then tries to tag runner from first while falling to the ground. Umpire signals safe because SHORTSTOP was nowhere near 2nd when he had the ball. Umpire then signals out when he thought SHORTSTOP tagged runner while falling to ground. Firstbase Umpire Tim M. was setup in the A slot when ball was hit. He then comes to his position to make a possible call at first on the back end of the double play. What do you think he is watching while he is moving to his position to make his expected call. I think he is watching the TRAIN WRECK at second, not taking his eye off the ball and play toward first until the SHORTSTOP releases the ball toward first, which never happened. In the replay angle that showed the SHORTSTOP missing the tag you can see Tim M. in the background (the camera angle was from the left field side). I think Tim M. had a perfect view of what happened, but was never asked so no information exchanged. The theory of "this is my call so I'M going to make it" without any help no matter how bad the train wreck looks is an EGO problem. What happened from that point is now we have 1 out and runners on first and third instead of bases loaded and NOBODY out.

Once again, and again and again and again

THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD!!! Some, will and can't EVER accept this.

He may or may not have seen the entire play, we will never know because NO ONE ever asked.

"What happened from that point is now we have 1 out and runners on first and third instead of bases loaded and NOBODY out."

I have to ask, who is "we"? Your team? Because if that is the case,.........and again and again and again.......

from jicecone
This isn't poker!

This has happen to me, and basically it's telling the player hey, I made the best call I could, based upon the information that was avaiable at the time I needed to make a decision. It may not be the decision you like or dislike but it the decision were going with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure that you read my post because your reply was way off the mark. He asked the shortstop if he tagged him after he made the call. He wasn't trying to tell him that he did the best he could, he was looking for substantiation. The call was complete and he was just trying to feel good about it. C'mon!



Jeff, again you are assuming that these guys umpire like you. Review the experience on that field, how many crew chiefs, former crew chiefs and experienced playoff umpires were on the field? They are not taught to wear blinders. With a six man system, the right field umpire would be looking right at it. The play at first was inconsequential and we learn as rookies to let the ball lead you to the action. Besides, the replay clearly showed that the umpire at first had a look at it. Please stop telling us how it was supposed to have happened. It happened differently and MLB umpires are trained to follow the ball. This is not even a matter of A2D, it didn't happen your way.

Pete - it was Adam Everett, not Craig Biggio... which invalidates that entire line of thought.

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined.

Like it was mentioned above - an umpire needs 2 things to ask for help... 1 - Didn't actually see what he called (present in this case), and 2 - the likelihood that another umpire saw, or could have seen, the play better (also present in this case). While I'm not positive McClelland had a view of the tag/no-tag, I would think it LIKELY, considering that he's tracking the ball once he gets into position for the DP. And while it's possible he was still setting up position, and DIDN'T see the tag/no-tag, there is enough of a chance that he DID see it that U2 should ask.

But lost, and not mentioned, in all of this is the existence of a 6th umpire. U9 probably had the best angle of all on this, and had no other responsibilities on this play. It's highly likely that he DID see this. The question then becomes - did he (or McClelland) have a good enough view from 90 or 120 feet away to see for certain that there was no tag.

But there's no question in my mind that U2 should have asked.

(PS - this is not sour grapes from a Cards fan. I'm a lifelong Astro fan.)

I believe that I mentioned the right field umpire above.

I think the only person making assumptions is you. I am giving you what the mechanics are.


I honestly do not know what you are talking about. If these umpires have been versed in 6 Man mechanics, then I am sure they are not trying to watch all over the field. Now you suggest the RF Umpire can see this play? The RF Umpire is probably 150 feet away from the play. He also is not in a very good angle either. You want an umpire over 100 feet away from a play making a call? You have got to be kidding me.

You do sound like a rookie, because you do not follow the ball most of the time. You actually watch "off ball" most of the time or watch the players to determine. If you always watch the ball you are going to miss many plays like obstruction and interference calls. You might even miss whether a runner is going to advance bases, which will help in anticipating a play at a certain base. Lastly, I am not telling you what to do. Do what you want to on that field. I can just suggest that you might get in a lot of trouble if you ever work 6 man, 4 man or 3 man and you are having umpires all over the field watching plays that are clearly out of their area or they are in a bad angle to help on. I worked more 3 man this year than I ever did in one season and I even worked 4 man. I can tell you I could not help on many plays from my position. This is not about me. This is about what the mechanics are and what is taught. Do you have any evidence that a RF or LF umpire can give help? There has to be some reference somewhere right? I have never heard a RF or LF umpire making a call or helping a base umpire.

Peace

Obviously...
 

This makes no sense so I give up. You guys that want to ask another umpire can go ahead.

Just don't be expecting to move up to the next level because it won't happen.

Guys that are good umpires should know that when you're at first you might have a look at second, but you cannot tell if there is a tag or not.

Last year in HS playoffs, I know of three times I couldn't tell if there was a tag, one time that I actually know there was not a tag on a play at second.

In all three of those I asked and the umpires said there was a tag. And on none of the plays was there any argument from the coach who was at 3rd.

But I will continue to teach, its your call, make the call using the best judgement, etc., and move on.

I can just see the circus with U2 calling time, running out to U? in right field asking him, "did you see the tag?", sorry, I'm laughing now just imagining that.

When does the WS start? I can't wait to see how many times the best in the profession ask for help.

Thanks
David

clarification
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Last year in HS playoffs, I know of three times I couldn't tell if there was a tag, one time that I actually know there was not a tag on a play at second. In all three of those I asked and the umpires said there was a tag. And on none of the plays was there any argument from the coach who was at 3rd.

[/B]

David, are you saying that you asked the umpires between innings or after the game, or did you mean you asked for help? I didn't get your meaning here. Thanks.

Steve

David, my apologies for not making sense - I thought my point was exceedingly clear. Now if you disagree with my point - fine, feel free, I can see your side too --- but surely my post made sense.

As to whether U1 had a "good" look, or a good enough look to give U2 any additional information --- we'll never know, he didn't ask. From the angle U2 had and the strange dive Everett took, he could have be A) right about the tag, B) wrong, with the tag missing by an inch or so (the actual case), or C) wrong, with the tag missed by a foot and a half. My point is - HE DOESN'T KNOW - he was blocked, and he KNOWS he was blocked.

On this ACTUAL play, I suspect that it was so close that in fact U1 and U9 did NOT have a clear enough view of the play to give U2 any additional information. That doesn't mean U2 shouldn't have checked, as he DOES NOT KNOW this until he DOES ask. Since he DIDN'T ask, he was derelict in his duties.

I personally don't care one way or the other whether help should have been asked for.

But to say that the umpire at first wouldn't be watching the play develop seems a little ridiculous. When the ball is hit to and a double play is likely, there is going to be nothing to watch at first base until the runner gets near the bag.

Maybe I am unaware of the proper mechanic, but with no one on, I learned to watch the ball, watch the fielder field it and then watch the release to see if the throw is true, lest I might have to adjust my angle on a poor throw.

I can't see why it would be any different on a double play. Get in position and follow the ball. You watch until the throw is released from second base to make sure that throw is true, again in case you have to adjust position for a poor throw.

In this case, I would think that the first base umpire would be looking right at the play, from a pretty good angle and could see three inches of daylight between the tag from 90 feet.

Again, I don't about asking for help or not, but the first base umpire most likely saw the play.

It is not ridiculous at all to suggest that umpires at this level are following the proper procedures. Assuming they are following the proper mechanics there is not another umpire that would have had a good look at this play. If they did, why are they not helping? I thought he asked for help and the umpire's call did not change.

Who is supposed to help on a double play in 6 man mechanics? I know it is different from 2 Man as compared to 3 Man. So if you are going to interject and example that might not even apply, can you tell us who is supposed to help on a double play situation? Are we talking about a force play or a tag up situation? I am not trying to be sarcastic, but I think you do not understand that there is a completely different procedure as you add umpires to the field. Six Man hardly has any rotations. The umpires are basically standing at their base except for one situation I can think of from the 2nd base umpire.

Once again, if the first base umpire is doing his job, he is getting ready to get in position to watch first base. He probably is out of position to know if there was a tag. I saw a couple of angles and I had to see it a couple of times to be sure there was no tag. Now you are suggesting at full speed an umpire that is not in position to make that call, saw the whole thing. I think the umpire asked for help and the call stood. So it sounds pretty clear to me that the umpire did not see anything to change the call. Oh well, what do I know.

Peace

"I think the umpire asked for help and the call stood. So it sounds pretty clear to me that the umpire did not see anything to change the call. Oh well, what do I know."

Apparantly you didn't see the play or pay close enough attention to the play. What evidence do you have that help was solicited, I never saw U2 talk to any other Umpire. You keep saying that U1 is not in position to see the missed tag. I say he was 60-70 feet away and a direct angle to see the daylight, a much better angle than U2 who was "straight lined" and had no opportunity to see the tag/no tag. And he is rated as the BEST in the majors so I don't think he was watching first base waiting for a throw to come from behind him.
The whole point is that these guys rarely ask for help from one of their team mates. Instead U2 is caught asking the SHORTSTOP if he made the tag. That should be embarrasing.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I recently worked a game where the coordinator for most of the east coast was there giving tips to the four of us that were rotating around and he told me the same thing: you watch the ball until the throw to first is made, otherwise you could end up in poor position or get hit with a wild throw. I'm sure McClelland was watching the play.

[<i> Originally posted by mcrowder

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined. </i>

As an umpire when it's MY CALL how can I assume that another umpire has a better angle than I did. Suppose the umpires did as you suggest. Called Time, huddled and NO-ONE really saw the TAG/NO TAG - Now what.

As soon as the umpires huddle, EVERYONE knows that YOU meaning Gibson have no clue whether the runner was safe / out. Now even after huddling no other umpire can help. Guess what! A CALL still needs to be made. Now get ready.

IMO, Gibson showed us how to handle a situation in which we are not in proper position. It's a fact of life that one time or another all of us will get caught out of position. It's just not in front of 1 million people to see.

I have done what Gibson did myself. I get caught out of position and look for some clues (players expression) and then SELL the call either way. We can all give examples of how players made our call for us by their actions or expressions. If you do as you suggest, a RHUBARB could easily happen. LaRussa can be Pinella like sometimes and no REAL argument came about.

As mentioned Gibson did the right thing. When Ledge gave up the HR to PuHolse the other night did Ledge ask for help after the fact. He probably wanted to take that pitch back but that's baseball.

Pete Booth

"As mentioned Gibson did the right thing. When Ledge gave up the HR to PuHolse the other night did Ledge ask for help after the fact. He probably wanted to take that pitch back but that's baseball."

If this is your logic and reasoning, I'm glad I don't work with you!

Re: clarification
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Quote:

Originally posted by David B Quote: Last year in HS playoffs, I know of three times I couldn't tell if there was a tag, one time that I actually know there was not a tag on a play at second. In all three of those I asked and the umpires said there was a tag. And on none of the plays was there any argument from the coach who was at 3rd.

Oops, not very clear was I.

I was U1 on the plays, I asked U2 after the game in each situation about the plays.

Thanks for asking
David

I would venture to say that if you know anything about umpiring and know that with six umpires on the field, you would have to have a good idea that if you were the umpire at first, you would be watching to play develop from your position at first and because of that position, probably have a real good look at a tag of a runner going past the second baseman towards the second base bag. Knowing that, you could feel fairly certain that if you were to ask for help, your parter has a good shot of seeing the play.

Just because the umpires huddle, doesn't mean that someone doesn't have a clue. The call has already been made. If the calling umpire knows he got straightlined and has the manager out strenuously arguing that he blew the call, maybe asking for help would be warranted.

Since I didn't see the play, but from what I've read, Larusa didn't put up a big argument, I'd stick with the call.

But if the situation is different and Larusa is seriously arguing that I missed the call and screwed the pooch, and I know I got straightlined and that there is a good possibility that my partner could help, maybe I find out if he can.

Pete - so many absurd things to respond to. I'll pick just one:

"How can (he) assume that another umpire has a better angle than I did?"

Uh... easily - he had NO angle, and if anyone knows that, it would be him. EVERYONE (except PU) had a better angle than him. The only question is whether they saw enough to make him change his mind on a call HE KNOWS HE DID NOT SEE. A lot of debate is being had regarding whether McClelland (and/or U9) was looking at this part of the play. I think they did... but the point is moot. The point is, U2 DID NOT SEE the tag (yet called one... aren't we all told in our very first year - see an out, call an out?), KNOWS he did not see the tag, yet refused to even ASK if anyone else had a view of the tag.

One reason, and one reason only. Ego.

And I suspect the folks in charge of officiating have asked him - How did you see a tag from that position, and if you didn't see one, why did you call an out... and further, why didn't you ask if anyone else saw it.

I'm not a champion of asking for help on every single call. I AM a proponent of asking for help when YOU YOURSELF know you did not see a particular play, and that particular play A) could be fixed, and B) could possibly have been seen by someone else. (And no, I'm not a rookie).

Gentlemen, this is getting silly. Of course the other umpires were watching the play. Yes, they have different mechanics, but they did not forget what they learned on the first day of umpiring school - watch the ball, stupid.
We've had threads about injuries before. Now we see that that may be the least of our concerns.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Oct 22nd, 2005 at 04:31 AM]

What happens if you are absolutely positively certain that your partner has missed a call. If you know you have some help to give that could save your partner from the interview room after the game and tens of thousands of people who like to call talk radio knowing his name?

In basketball, it is unusual but not unheard of for those who have reffed together frequently to develop ways to let each other know silently and quickly that they have help to offer if asked. If I'm not mistaken, I would say I saw something like this on the field last year during game 6 of the ALCS on a home run/no home run call.

Are we certain here that no such thing goes on at this level, and that U1 hadn't actually made it clear that he had no help to offer?

In basketball, there are certain plays where you give help (ball tipped oob) and certain plays where you don't (contact or not on a foul).

So it is in baseball. Give help on the homerun call; don't give it on this tag.

Even if U1 (or, for that matter, instant replay) could have hleped on this call, it wouldn't take much to cahnge teh situation to one where help would just make things worse -- and it's hard to draw the line.

Here is the bottom line, the call was not changed. The runner was called out and no one helped or saw anything to change the call. Whether any of us like what took place or not, we saw the play at several angles and we have an opinion on the call. These umpires had one shot at a call and they did not technically get it right.

I also find funny that people want to throw out all the procedures that are normally used. I have worked with companies where if you do the right thing and not follow the proper company procedures, you will get fired. No ifs ands or butts about it.

I have not said you cannot ask for help in appropriate situations. Just like Basketball and Football, there are times when officials can ask for help and there are times you cannot ever ask for help. If you ask for help when umpires are not in a good position to make a call, then every call will be up for debate. You have to try to get in position and make the best call at the time. All this conversation what should have been done is Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking.

Peace

Ya ya ya, Gibson should have asked for help. But I'm glad to see how excellent of a job Gerry Davis did behind the plate. Also I'm glad that Davis ended up becoming the last umpire to work the plate in the old Bush.

On this board, we will simply not tolerate such crude reference to the spouses of MLB umpires.

This has been a GREAT thread. Informative, entertaining, insightful, and with negligible cheap shots. Nice job, folks!

JJ