Balk or Not Part 2

[Gre144]

I am more confused now than before I asked the question. I guess my question is this. Can the shoulder be pointed towards first and stay pointed towards first at the the time the pitcher comes set? Assume that when he is set, his shoulder is completely towards first but at no time after coming set does his shoulder, which is pointed towards first, turn in a direction that would cause his shoulder to turn even more towards first.

I think I want to know if his shoulder can turn towards first and remain positioned towards first at the time he comes set.

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on May 10th, 2001 at 09:38 PM]

Yes if his moves his foot a little so he doesn't have to turn his shoulder to get there. He opens his left foot enough he may look at first without turning his body too. From there he may set in the same position or bring his left foot back over so when he sets he faces the plate.

You sound like me when I started. I was an outfielder what did I know about pitching. I really had to work on balk identification. Not that I was looking to nit-pick balks but more so I could see what to call and what to let go.

[Edited by Michael Taylor on May 10th, 2001 at 11:01 PM]

[Gre144]

Originally posted by joemoore
What I said was that the position of the shoulders is not illegal. Turning the shoulders is illegal. The word turn is used as a verb and requires physical turning motion, not just positioning.

If the pitcher is bent over for signs and in standing up his shoulder moves, then that in itself is not illegal. As mentioned, in many instances, a subtle repositioning of the shoulder during the stretch is usually not considered a fake and is not penalized. Any sharp (quick, sudden) turning motion of the shoulder during the stretch should be penalized.

Any shoulder turning motion before the stretch or after coming set should be penalized.

As you get into the more subtle areas, your judgment becomes the determination. When in doubt, consider deception, is the pitcher deceiving the runner?

Can it be said that the front shoulder should be square towards home plate(the left shoulder facing home plate for a right handed pitcher) before, during and after the the stretch?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gre144
Can it be said that the front shoulder should be square towards home plate(the left shoulder facing home plate for a right handed pitcher) before, during and after the the stretch?

No. How much simpler could it be?

[Gre144]

Well Bob, it seems like most people are saying, including you, that you can't turn your shoulders- and the only way to point your shoulder towards first base is to turn it towards first base. If turning the shoulders is illegal then pointing your shoulder towards first, which requires you to turn it in that direction, would be a balk wouldn't it? The only time that the front shoulder does not turn is when it is pointed directly towards home as the pitcher comes set.

Maybe I'm looking into it to deep as you have said to me before. Deception is probably the key factor in determining a balk with a shoulder move.

Thanks

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on May 11th, 2001 at 02:11 PM]

Basicly the shoulder can be open as I think everybody agrees on. What is a balk is when the shoulder faces home either in preliminary,during the set or after he is set and the opens it to first. Just remember if he starts closed he stays closed. Anything else there is no deception. Try to find a copy of "See a Balk, Call a Balk" it may make it easier. It's hard to explain without visual aids.

[Edited by Michael Taylor on May 11th, 2001 at 04:11 PM]

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor
Basicly teh shoulder can be open as I think everybody adrees on. What is a balk is when the shoulder faces home either in preliminary,during the set or after he is set and the opens it to first. Just remember if he starts closed he staya closed. Anything else there is no deception. Try to find a copy of "See a Balk, Call a Balk" it may make it easier. It's hard to explain without visual aids.

Michael, I respectfully think that Mr. Jekins would disagree with you.

Greg

[badbamaump]

IF HE'S STATIONARY ON THE RUBBER AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, BALK HIM!

IF HE'S MOVING AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, NO BALK!

I don't know if I could explain this any easier.

Will


[Edited by badbamaump on May 11th, 2001 at 03:04 PM]

If you are saying turning as he comes up set as in Mesina this is illegal in FED only. College or OBR it's fine. This is according to my state interpreter who was on the rules committee. Personnally I don't mess with it much unless somebody complains. It tough to expect pitchers to change what's legal everywhere else they pitch.

[badbamaump]

Mike,
I've heard tell that in some places they'll balk for the "Mussina" move.... I've never called it, never heard a coach say anything about it either.

I've got enough crap to look for in a FED game without adding this to it! lol

Will

[Gre144]

Originally posted by badbamaump
IF HE'S STATIONARY ON THE RUBBER AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, BALK HIM!

IF HE'S MOVING AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, NO BALK!

I don't know if I could explain this any easier.

Will


[Edited by badbamaump on May 11th, 2001 at 03:04 PM]

This is the explanation that I have been looking for!! Does everyone agree that the above quote is correct? If so, then I completely understand now.

Thanks,

Greg

Originally posted by Gre144

This is the explanation that I have been looking for!! Does everyone agree that the above quote is correct? If so, then I completely understand now.

Thanks,

Greg

Yes it's as good as any. I agree with him about having enough to watch in a FED game.