Usually with the count "full", I will hold up the hands indicating the number of balls (three fingers on left hand) and the number of strikes (two fingers on right hand) and then say..."Full Count!"

But I was corrected tonight by a fan (could have been an off duty ump) that challenged me to find where the word "full count" is the rule book.

Anyone know? Icouldn't find it.

Max

Im not sure where or if that is in the rule book.. but "full count" is definately something that people will recognize.. and understand what you are talking about.. When I have a full count i show the count say 3 balls 2 strikes.. full count.. i dont think you should be overly worried about what this fan brought to your attention

What Ben said is true BUT the proper way is three balls and two strikes. Just as the proper way a announing two outs is to say. "The outs are two"

Then again fans and broadcast announcers don't know the difference.

rex

I was taught not to say "full count", just announce "3balls/2 strikes".....the reasoning being that "full count", could be misconstrued. Just the way I do it...

Will

Agreed
 

Have always been taught (and passed on in training) that you hold both hands up with fingers extended and say, "3/2 or 3 balls, two strikes!" We NEVER use the term "full count."

As to outs, I have never heard anyone say "the outs are TWO!"

But what do I know I am not Rut.

Full count
 

I was taught by veteran softball umpire that when a full count exists, close both hands to form a fist, hold them at face level, and announce, "Full count!!" This technique
alleviates the mis-reading of fingers held aloft.

Closed fist
 

The term "full count" is simply baseball lexicon, nothing more.

Holding up two closed fists is "nothing" that's a whole lot different from 3 balls, 2.

I have to agree with GeeBee. Although it is not the "TAUGHT" way of doing it, using either 1 or 2 fist up high
will be appreciated more by an outfielder than 3 fingers on the left and 2 on the right. If you were an outfielder in a night game, do you really think he can distinguish each individual finger. No he can not. A fist can not be mis-understood. I don't think it could be miscontrued as no count since the batter has been up for at least 5 pitches already.
-- Only my 2 cents worth --

Re: I am sorry reading is so hard for you, but......
 

That is why you must not be a very good umpire, you do not believe in what you are taught or what you read?

But on that note, I was always taught to show 3 fingers for balls (left hand), and two fingers (right hand) for strikes. You see many umpires use two fists and say "full count" all the time. But according to what I have read (sorry, but it is something that I do a lot of) and been taught, you want to avoid using words or phrases that are not in the book. Reason behind this is that you cause confusion with the rules and definitions. You know like people think there is a "slide rule." But that is another discussion all together.

Peace


[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 25th, 2001 at 01:33 PM]

I am sure,
 

that there are several differences between softball mechanics and baseball mechanics.

I have been to pro school twice, have attended clinics run by MLB umpires and D1 umpires and they have all said exactly what Rut says concerning ball/strike signals:

Never, never, used closed fist unless it is to show "zero".

Now the rest of Rut's mindless attack can be left to the birds.

The latest signalling thingy that we're being taught down herebouts is to NOT SIGNAL Zero....you got 2 strikes, then you only got the right hand up with 2 fingers up (and not the "hook em horns" signal either). I dunno if you'd be allowed to do that wherever you work, but that's that way I'm being told to work.

Just my lil ole 2 CSA cents worth.

Will

U R
 

so right, Will. I just read my post and it did read WRONG.

As we have all been taught by Golden State, Evans, PAC-10 (9). YOU NEVER signal a zero in a count.

What I was thinking when I first posted was . . .

New hitter and some coach says, "hey what's the count?"

I then go fist to fist and say, "It is a new hitter, Bubba!"

My bad.

Tee, U Know
 

both of us have problems reading....lol

Course, what do either of us know??? sheesh better go back and look at THE BOOK.

Will

Re: Tim.
 

You are the one that dragged my name into this discussion. Do not get upset now that I responded to your "cheap shot." You just cannot get over the fact that I have an opinion and can think for myself. I am glad you agree with me on this, but I am sure we will disagree some more. My opinions are not personal affronts to you, they are just my opinions of things I have learned, been taught, or read in my own time.

Tim relax, that is why it is a discussion board.

Peace

Closed fist equals full count
 

A closed fist should equate to zero balls or strikes. Half the time the pitcher can't see the fingers the catcher is putting down, so lets not worry about the in/outfielders.

Two closed fists raised should be reserved for situations where there are 0 balls and 0 strikes on the batter. An example would be the signal given after a pickoff move(s) prior to the first pitch being delivered to the plate, etc. The signal for three balls and two strikes should be three fingers raised on the left hand and two fingers on the right.

This is one for my scrape book.....
 

Wow, this thread is absolutely amazing! I'm printing it out and labelling it:
"Plate Umpire Signals & Political Correctness - Course #101"

Re: Full count
 

GeeBee,
Your veteran softball ump was not teaching you the standard softball mechanic in this. Show balls with left hand, strikes with right hand and announce "three balls, two strikes" - that's how we do it in ASA, Fed, and NCAA softball - hmmmmmmm just like baseball in this instance.

Steve M

no fists
 

The closed fist is a poor mechanic. Show the proper fingers. In my associations signaling, we use a closed fist to show ZERO outs.

The proper way
 

Did a Babe Ruth Jr game the other day as a favor to my leagues UIC. I kept signalling either "three and two" or "three balls and two strikes". The coach came up to me between innings and told he has umped and the correct mechanic is banging your two closed fists together saying full count. Let's not go into my response (I was nice). However, I did resist discussing coaching with him when he was forced to finish the game with 8 players and elected to have 3 infielders and 3 outfielders (no third baseman). The sad part was the other team never got players to steal an open third base. Now I know why I usually stick to school and travel games.

I agree
 

When I played outfield in college, I appreciated the umpires that held up two fists for full count for the exact reasons that you gave. Even a high school student should be able to tell the difference between 3-2 and no count. :o) Like you said, at least five pitches worth.

When I went to umpire school, I questioned this insane insistance that 3-2 had to be three fingers on the left hand and two on the right. I argued your position of the hapless outfielder. I got a long speech from the instructor about how ball players were not that smart. After I umpired a while, I realized that it was your umpire partners that were not that smart, not the ballplayers. Realizing that getting along was more important than being right, I always indicate 3-2 with three fingers on the left hand and two on the right.

BTW, I was told that the term "full count" was a carry over from poker where a full house is trips and a pair.

Peter

A very experience umpire just before going to the Olympics asked the clinic what's the count full of? Use the three/two fingers. Also I would like to know what difference does it make to the outfielders what the count is. If the ball is hit to them they catch it. They need to know outs but not the count. I was a centerfielder so I know a little about the position.

Giving the count
 

It might be important if you have a complex defensive set up. But for most of us that do not do levels that relay every single pitch, what the outfielder thinks is truely irrelavant. If they want to know the count, pay attention. They know if is there is a strike or not by paying attention to the umpire. The count should only be given either when the count is critical (3 balls or 2 strikes in the count) or every three pitches. It is not our job to constantly give a count after every pitch

Just a thought.

Peace

This is truly idiotic
 

EVERYBODY knows what a full count is.

For someone to argue that a full count really doesn't exist - THAT is stupid.

I don't care what the umpire holds up when there is a 3-2 count. I care more what he calls the 3-2 pitch.

Rich

I hold up three fingers on the left hand, two on the right, and announce, "Three-Two - count's full!".
Guess that touches all the bases...

An outfielder needs to know when the count is full. The other counts do not matter. My college defense had different coverages with full count and the runners moving. The outfielders needed to be aware of this because of different cutoff positions.

This was back in the late sixties. I rarely see anyone using that kind of defense anymore. Besides, most college fields have electronic scoreboards where the fielders can read the count, assuming that it is correct. Back in my playing days, electronic scoreboards were a rarity in amateur ball.

Peter

OK
 

You guys give defensive baseball teams MUCH too much credit.

This has been an intersting thread however, I think Rich Froneheiser answer was, by far, the best of all answers.

S & O

Just as a point of interest...
 

I think the term "full count" comes from the fact that the next pitch will terminate the count, unless it is fouled off naturally. Who? Naturally.