I posted this on another forum and i'd like to get some of your opinions on this forum:

EJ #1 - This one was by rule. Runner plowed over the catcher.... Gone

EJ #2 - Base umpire had several close plays that all went against the same team. Naturally, they were moaning and complaining. "We're getting screwed. This guy's terrible" and more were coming from the stands. A play happens in the third and the assistant takes a step out of the dugout (which is within a close proximity to home plate) and says "can we appeal that? i say "appeal what?" he says "the call." i say "no, i can't overrule my partner." he says "but come on, that was obvious." I say "he was on top of it and he made the call. end of discussion."

Later, another close tag play happened at third. They all go ballistic. Same assistant says "Can we appeal THAT!?" i say "no, i can't. what makes what i see right and what he sees wrong?" then he says "Because HE can't see!!!" .... Gone

We were then approached by a swarm of fathers after the game- they were all mainly yelling at him though.

--------------------------------------

So for #2, would you have ejected him for that? Thoughts? Comments?

EJ'ed?
 

As far as your two sit's, the first one is a no brainer.
The second one seems like a HTBT. I would have to consider the mood of the coach, how the comment was delivered, ..., before I could make a call on that one. My inclination would be to let him stay, till it got worse.

As for the crowd in the parking lot, I would have told them that if they have a complaint, to send it to the league. If they pressed to discuss it any farther, I'd get in my car and call 911.

I have not had that many words with an assistant all year. I mainly ignore them. But if one came out of the dugout to argue, my short discussion with him would be about getting back in the dugout, not about what he came out to argue about. So I certainly support tossing him on his second offense.

[Edited by DG on Aug 7th, 2005 at 09:36 PM]

First of all, as explained I have no problem with the ejections. Papa Childress lists one of the ways in how to ruin a baseball game as being, "Not supporting you Partner."

Now, I do not think that you should have made the decision about the appeal, for your partner. After all, you did tell the coach it was his call. You didn't want to overrule your partner but, you just did.

In fact, assuming OBR rules, 9.02b allows a manager to appeal "only to the umpire that made the protested decision." It is then his perogative to ask his partners for help or say my call was final. Not yours.

And for those against "Group Hugs" prior to "getting the call right," at the end of 9.02, "General Instructions To Umpires", it clearly states , "Umpire dignity is important but never as important as "being right"."

I agree with DG if an assitant coach comes out of the dugout and starts talking to me even if i know he is not i will say "Sir, stop right there. Are you the maniger?" they will replie "no" and i will then say " Then get back in the dugout or leave" then i will deal with the maniger.

In turn i also agree with DG about your ejection i might have qouted back to him 10-1-4 in FED about an umpires judgement and he might have retorted back resulting in an earlier ejection but you handled the situation corectly.

I was behind the plate for a state finals game 2 weekends ago, 6 man crew. Bottom of the 8th, home team one run behind. R1 and R2, two outs. The final out was made when R2 was thrown out at 3B on a double steal attempt. The umpire who made the call at 3B was the only one on the crew from the same town as the losing team. As I walked out wondering what was on their mind to try a double steal, when the tieing run was in scoring position, I noted that many of the home fans were making bad comments to the 3B umpire as he left the field.

Stay away from and/or ignore the fans after the game. If you feel threatened get in your car and leave. You can meet your partner for postgame somewhere nearby, like at a convenience store.

Every coach/ manager knows, or should know, that one umpire can not over rule another.
In stating that fact in your reply you are inferring you disagree with the call.
Backing up your partner correctly indicates you are a team working together.
Your intension may have been to defuse the situation, but the result, as you stated, was very different.
If you had directed the manager to you partner, being the guy that made the call, he could have come to you for help, or dealt with the situation himself. You said latter that you don’t know what your partner saw, give him a chance to explain it. If you need to step in to help out an inexperience umpire, do it when he needs help.

A better answer would have been "No."

Saying "I can't overrule my partner" implies to the rats that you'd <i>like</i> to, but your hands are tied by rule.

Your further comments were more supportive of your partner, but the line I quoted above is ambiguous in its meaning and likely fed the fire of the requests you kept getting.

<i> Originally posted by jicecone </i>


<b>In fact, assuming OBR rules, 9.02b allows a manager to appeal "only to the umpire that made the protested decision." It is then his perogative to ask his partners for help or say my call was final. Not yours. </b>

Jicecone,

9.02b is irrelevant in this scenario. 9.02b talks about Rule interpretations not JUDGEMENT calls like safes/outs which is what the thread is about.

There is nothing to protest and nothing to appeal. One team was dissatisfied with the call of OUT/SAFE. Nothing in the thread at least the way I read it, indicated anything about the BU misapplying a rule which is what 9.02b is about.

Other than Rule interps the only other rule in which a coach can request an appeal is on the check swing called a ball.

Pete Booth

<i> Originally posted by largeone59 </i>

<b>A play happens in the third and the assistant takes a step out of the dugout (which is within a close proximity to home plate) and says "can we appeal that? </b>


First off do not to talk to an assistant coach unless during the plate conference the manager says that so and so will be handling all baseball related issues.

Since you did answer him a Simple NO is all that is required.

<b> Same assistant says "Can we appeal THAT!?" i say "no, i can't. what makes what i see right and what he sees wrong?" then he says "Because HE can't see!!!" </b>

See what happens when you do not "take of business" in the beginning. As umpires unless a coach asks for an explanation of a rule interp, do not engage in dialogue. A stern NO in the beginning would probably have stopped the coaches from their constant dialogue with you concerning the appeals.

Once a Coach KNOWS you will not bend and are backing your partner, they will stop asking you for an over-turn or an appeal.

Side Note: If a group of Parents approached you in the manner in which you claim, hopefully you filed a report with the league you umpire in and also your assignor.

No matter what the calls were when the GAME is OVER IT's OVER and Parents should not follow umpires to their cars.

Pete Booth

Peter, I can't disagree with you one bit however, if it was truly the case and enforced by the letter of the law, Boston MAY, have not won the series last year. A judgement call was made and overturned.

Rule 9.02 is clear about judgement calls and in fact, it says that the manager is suppose to be ejected if they do protest. But when there is "reasonable doubt," and the manager handles it properly, does he get tossed. No, and you know it. Sounds like were taking a hard lined stand to an ambigious rule.

Yes it may have been just a tag play, but instead of taking and adversarial approach, how about directing the coach to his partner, the one that made the call. Being a harda$$ may make some officils feel good about the job they do but, is it truly necessary in every game?

Maybe it's just me!!

<b> But when there is "reasonable doubt," and the manager handles it properly, does he get tossed. No, and you know it. Sounds like were taking a hard lined stand to an ambigious rule.

Yes it may have been just a tag play, but instead of taking and adversarial approach, how about directing the coach to his partner, the one that made the call. Being a harda$$ may make some officils feel good about the job they do but, is it truly necessary in every game? </b>

IMO, you need to read the thread again.

1. The assistant coach was the one who came out NOT the Manager

Therefore, right "off the bat" we have improper protocol on the part of the team. In addition, again according to the thread the BU was taking "heat" all game long.

IMO, you are trying to "stretch" rule 9.02b and compare it to the amateur game where there is only 2 of us.

Reality: Any coach worth his "wait in salt" would ask for Time and ask to speak to the umpire who made the call and not "dance around the issue."

I guess we have a difference of opinion, but when it comes to Balls/Strikes and Safes/Outs do not Over-step your boundaries and the aforementioned thread dealt with an Out/Safe call no more no less.

As far as the tossing goes again PLEASE read the thread again. The assistant coach said "Because he can't see" meaning he now made it Personal.

General speaking I agree with some of your comments but I was simply responding to the thread at hand in which 9.02b does not come inot play.

Pete Booth

You would seriously say this? WOW.

You know drumbum, I don't think this has ever been discussed on here...but just so we all know...how old are you and how many years experience do you have?

And I also agreed with the ejections.

Handling the situation, MAY, have been different.

I got to stand up for drumbum on this.

The assistant steps comes out to argue, drumbum cuts him off and tells him to get off the field, or leave (ejected.) What is wrong with that?

It has been discussed before. Remember when he was getting in fights with players before he got on the field? It was HS aged players, in a rec league.

This is probally dad coached, and with real coaches, the assistants would not come out to argue, and if they did they would be ejected before they got all the way to him. But if he wants to warn the dad first, what is wrong with that?

In the original question, Largeone is absolutely correct. You ejected him because he told you that your partner can't see. There is no discussion, and I would hope that every umpire here would have done what you did. You didn't eject him because it was an assistant that said it, or because he was outside of the dugout when he said it or whatever. You ejected him because you treat a personal attack on your partner as you would treat a personal attack on yourself. If he told you that you can't see, would you have ejected him? Absolutely. Therefore, you need to do the same when he directs a comment like that about your partner to you.

Good call.

Hmmm, (edit)
 

I DO NOT eject for the sins (or preceived sins) of my partner.

It is my partners job to clean up his own messes not mine.

As I have stated before I only get involved when I can "make it my business" (*see below).

Umpires will only grow and develop as they learn the "game" as played between coaches/players --VS-- Umpires.

IF my partner ran someone yakking at me there would be long talk in the umpire dressing room (i.e. the back bumper of my car).

* "Making It My Business" = a creative umpire recognizes EVERYTHING that is going on under his sphere of influence.

When a coach is all over my partner I always pay close attention to the words.

As I listen I look for terms such as: "Blue you're horrible . . .", "You buthered that call . . . ", etc.

What I am waiting for is that same coach to error and include me in his comment: "Gees, you guys are killing us!"

That is when I get involved with both feet. This usually means escalatiing the discussion until I make an ejection that is associated with comments made to or about ME.

I support my partner but would never "eject" for my partner . . . he needs to learn to fight his own battles.

--------------

Todd, I am not sure I understand your comment to dumdrum.

I wouldn't let the assitant coach have as much rope as he did . . . I certainly wouldn't call him "Sir,".

My point is the same: assistant coaches do not exist and if they make ANY movement to come on to the field (and not just telling the BR "take two" or giving a little "HumBaby" for the coaches box) they are most likely given the "STOP" sign and told "get off the field you don't exisit!"

If they comne one step closer they are ejected.

[Edited by Tim C on Aug 8th, 2005 at 03:19 PM]

You're going to get alot more
 

You talk too much. As others have alluded too.. you put yourself and partner in a bad situation with your overlong dialog with this coach.

Can I appeal?
NO (one word).

You set him, and your partner up.

Coach could have TALKED to partner, but if he is too dumb to know that, it is not up to you to instruct him or get into an editorial discussion.

Tim I agree with you but I'm talking about a situation that is specific to your partner not hearing the coach or player making a comment. I agree 100% that umpires have to fight their own battles. But if you're saying that a coach can walk up to me and say "your partner sucks" and I am supposed to sit there and let him keep walking, then I can't agree at all. And in the original thread, the coach was talking directly to the PU about the BU and he had every right to eject the coach.

Then
 

We need to disagree . . . if I wasn't smart enough to get the coach into talking about me then I would just walk away.

Can't picture this happening -- but I would not eject for my partner's battle.

T

Pssssst: Here's what I would do:

Coach: "Your partner is TERRIBLE!"

Tee (very loud): "Don't come to me with crap like that . . . if you don't have the GUTS to go out and talk with him then just get off the field!"

And I would then walk away.

t

[Edited by Tim C on Aug 8th, 2005 at 04:12 PM]

Here's where I disagree w/ drumbum's comment: Why give the coach an ultimatum that is confrontational? In a situation that seems to already be going out of control because of idiotic partners, loud fans, and irate coaches, why tell an assistant, one who you're probably going to run anyways, to "get back to the dugout or leave?" I just disagree with being that confrontational at all; we're there to improve the game or at the very least, keep the status quo, not worsen the situation.

Well,
 

"I just disagree with being that confrontational at all; we're there to improve the game or at the very least, . . ."

With Big Boy ball this statement is naive at best.

T

Sorry, Tim, but I don't agree with your above comments, for to act that way is only going to end up inflaming even more said person.

If a player gets rung up on a good pitch and biatches about it and doesn't get ejected by the plate umpire, that's my plate umpire partner's problem. However, when this player runs onto the field to begin the next inning, for example, and comes to me and emphatically says, "Your partner's a piece of schit," I will eject him.

Yes, they explain this at umpire school, but I didn't have to go to school to learn this.

Yes, someone who says this lacks the guts to tell my partner himself, but he's probably telling me, assuming he cannot get ejected because he's saying this to another umpire and not the one who rung him up. Sorry, but he assumed wrong. I don't look for ejections, but in this case, said player or coach has earned the right to get booted.

Gee,
 

Let's see . . . I've been to pro school twice (if that Is important) . . . I have only worked 3,705 big boy (tm) games (if that matters) . . . I have ejected 314 players, coaches, trainers, batboys, score keepers, ground crew members and PA announcers (if that matters).

I have never dumped someone for ONLY speaking of my partners errors (preceived). I let my partners handle their own $hit. As I said: I am smart enough to get anyone I want (baited or otherwise).

Do what you want and I'll do the same.

-----

Wasn't it Charlie Reliford that dumped someone just the other night for complaining about the PU when CR was working U2?

Ump25,

I think Tee is trying to say that he WANTS to inflame the situation so it gets to the point that the manager either turns his attack on him so he can the run the rat b@$t@rd, or convince the manager to grow enough balls to speak directly to his partner so he can run him.

Either way, I think Tee wants this guy to go, but is giving this guy just enough rope to hang himself while not playing
" who's your daddy now " with his partner.

Tim.

Re: Gee,
 

There's no need to be flashing your credentials. I am familiar with you, Tee. There's no need to flash mine, either. We're both well-respected, well-known umpires. (Pro school twice? Not good enough the first time, eh? :D Sorry, you opened yourself up to that. I still love ya though.)

Having said that, why do you always consider it an error if your partner rings up a batter? I surely never said it was. Again, if my partner does something normal in the course of his work and a player or coach does something that warrants an ejection but my partner simply didn't hear it, but I did, I'll eject with nary a concern.

BTW, in my meager 28 years of umpiring, I don't have nearly as many ejections as you do. A little trigger happy, are you. ;)

I understand that, BU, for I've done the same.

Interesting discussion, and something I have never had to encounter because I generally take care of my sh*t and my partner does likewise. I have had players and coaches tell me my partner's call was terrible and I just ignore them, but if he were called a c*cks*k*er to my face I think I would be forced to dump.

Hmmm,
 

"(Pro school twice? Not good enough the first time, eh? Sorry, you opened yourself up to that. I still love ya though.)"

I would be careful if I was you. I have written an entire column about my expereince and the fact is that both times I went to school I went AFTER telling them I did not want to go on into professional baseball. In fact, my second trip I was invited by Barney a few years after my first trip. :-]

---------------------------------------------------

"BTW, in my meager 28 years of umpiring, I don't have nearly as many ejections as you do. A little trigger happy, are you."

Again I wouldn't go somewhere that you have no idea what type of games I worked or what my talents (?) are.

As HHH calls it I was an "elephant hunter" during most of my career . . . plus one ejection every 10 games never seemed to be too exciting during my prime years.

Of course we didn't have to worry about ruining the physce of a college player.

We also didn't have to have group hugs with other umpires to "get the call right" -- (See my up coming column on this website -- "When gettin' it right, ain't").

I have made it clear what my view of the issue is -- I take care of my own business. I also mentioned HOW I would take care of this issue if I got "tired" of someone chipping at my partner.

-------------------------------------------------

BTW, I have three ejections in the last five years -- sad, I know but rats aren't made outta what theu used to be!!!

Love and Kisses,

T

T, my comments about school were meant to be tongue-in-cheek, especially since your original comment left a door quite wide enough for me to walk through. ;)

Re: Gee,
 

Don't know about Reliford, but I was at a Mariners vs. Indians game a couple weeks ago, and Tim McClelland ejected Indians pitcher Scott Elarton who was chirping at Adam Dowdy. Dowdy, U3, had said that Suzuki did not go around on a check swing. McClelland was U2, and Elarton was in the dugout!

The Cleveland-centric announcers joked that if McClelland moved as fast calling balls and strikes as he did tossing Elarton, a lot of folks in baseball would be happy.

Re: Hmmm, (edit)
 

<i> Originally posted by Tim C </i>

<b> It is my partners job to clean up his own messes not mine.

As I have stated before I only get involved when I can "make it my business" (*see below).

Umpires will only grow and develop as they learn the "game" as played between coaches/players --VS-- Umpires. </b>

Tee I agree in principal with your statement, however, the game needs to move along and if the Coach and your partner "are going at it" IMO, you as the experienced member need to interject for the following reasons:

1. Move the game along especially if it's a Time Limit Game

2. Restore Order to the game

3. Do something before it gets to the "ugly" stage

My view is that we are a team out there just like when we played and when someone does something to our "teammate" we want to "stick up for him" We might not agree with it (but that's for practice).

Therefore, I agree in principal but up to a point. Yes we all need to learn and give our partners their due, but once one as an experienced official sees it "going nowhere" then in order to restore order and get the game moving, then I think it's appropriate to intervene.

First off with your experience, I doubt whether you would even allow an assistant to question anything which is probably the main problem with this thread to begin with.

Pete Booth

Re: Re: Hmmm, (edit)
 

Pete,
Well said - I agree with all of your points, especially as a crew chief or perhaps a veteran working with younger (less experienced) umpires. In three man crews, this happens more than you think. Here's a couple of examples from this year...

1. U2 (me) kicked a call at second base. Third base dugout goes nuts as the manager comes out to get a piece of me. PU is keeping an eye on the dugout and sure enough, one of the rats calls me a "fu@kin di@kwad" from the bench. My partner, ofcourse, has my back and runs the guy immediately

2. First base coach, who got himself confused with being the manager ;), was voicing his displeasure early in the game with my strike zone. I gave him a break and warned him that I wasn't going to hear anymore out of him. Later in the game, my partner had a few wackers that went against that same team and he ended up having to run one of their players. Needless to say, he wasn't very popular with that team.

Sure enough, an inning later, we had a play at first where the first base manager ;),(I mean coach), thought F3 pulled his foot. He started going off on my partner and I immediately jumped in (I was trailing the play up the line and knew my partner got it right). Knowing he already had an ejection and was probably going to get another one, I stepped in to deflect some of the attention off him. It didn't take me long to run the first base coach and "skip" came up to me and said...

"Why did you eject him when he wasn't even talking to you"? I told him... "Who's running this team anyways Skip?" He said "I am". I said, "Well you better tell him to let you do your job because he was chirping at me about balls & stikes earlier in the game and I told him to knock it off. Now he's on my partner about plays at first base and we're not going to listen to TWO managers". Needless to say he got the point.

My partner thanked me after the game for stepping in because if he would of run the first base coach, all hell would have broke loose and he probably would of had a few more ejections on his hands. By me stepping in and "taking one for the team", I deflected some of the attention off of him and onto me. I don't normally do this but I felt this situation warranted a little team work.