http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/4785331/detail.html

here we go again......

Yup, this crap never, NEVER happens in a USSSSSSSSSA game or in another youth context. Newsworthy problems only happen in Little League.

And is this really that big of a deal?

Yes Rich, this is a big deal. This could be a potential lawsuit for racial discrimination. Discrimination is based on race, creed, sex, ethnicity, and national origin. I could see a lawyer filing a lawsuit based on a couple of these. There have already been successful lawsuits regarding employers banning Spanish in the workplace where language was not deemed a critical element of safety. This umpire would have no leg to stand on should he be sued and existing suits used as a precedence. Likewise, Little League could be held accountable for not stepping in and rectifying the situation.

well, as far as 'illegal things' being possibly spoken in another language, I have a grain of sympathy for the umpire in that if the coaches were to give instructions like, "bean this guy" or "take him out" or whatever, and that's what occurred, those are strong indicators of malicious intent, which obviously bears on ejections. How can the umpire judge that if he doesnt speak the language?

All I know is, if I gotta be bilingual to call games, my game fee just tripled ;)

As the article points out in a quote by the Little League spokesman, if the aggrieved coach had lodged a protest in accordance with the tournament rules, the umpire error would have been corrected. Instead, he "left the game in protest."

Is Little League at fault for not publishing their tournament rules in Espanol?

Racial discrimination? Next you'll tell me that Little League is fostering a hostile environment by not providing them with bilingual umpires. Or rulebooks in Spanish.

When the coach communicates with the umpire or makes substitutions, do we need to provide an interpreter? In the United States?

You have cleverly changed the subject and introduced a red herring. The discussion involved on field communications between members of the same team. Umpire to coach communications are a separate issue. Likewise, league administration to team communications are a separate issue. (You raised that one with bilingual rulebooks.)

Stick to the subject. Where in the rules does the umpire gain the right to eavesdrop on the communications between coach and player or player and player? Be specific. Does this right to eavesdrop contribute in a meaningful way to game administration?

Those are the questions that will be asked in a court of law? I don't think that preventing ball balls will be an answer on which the judge will look favorably.

The answers, by the way, are no and no. The counsel would use the example of American umpires in Japanese leagues as proof . The umpires speak almost no Japanese and the Japanese speak almost no English, yet the games are successfully umpired.

What are hand signals? Another language your team knows and the other team is not supposed to know. Hand signals could also be used to instruct players to take illegal actions. This umpire needs diversity training.

I agree with this view, it is no different than signs from the coaches box. I could give a bean sign and noone would know the difference other than my team.

Sign Language is considered a foriegn language, it would qualify as such at a university that required a foreign language for you to complete a major.

Yeah, Rich, it's unlawful discrimination.
It could make a lawsuit, but I doubt it: kinda hard to make damages, although an injunction would be a possibility.
The bit about rule books in Spanish [ or Farsi, or Urdu or ...] is a red herring, as is the other guy's bit about "how can I figger out if the action was malicious if I can't understand what they're saying?".

Bottom line: no umpire, anywhere, has any right or authority to demand that participants stick to english on the field. Guys who do this are OOO yahoos at best, and racist bigots at worst. The TD was an idiot not to squelch this when they wenty to him/her.

'Course the Coach is a bigger idiot for claiming that this ruling "cost them the game".

You WERE right though, that the LL angle is pure coincidence: I've had to deal with this same stupidity in my HS/BRBB/Legion association.

Racist bigots? This game WAS played in Massachusetts, right?

Fine, I'll cede that this was against the law. So is speeding and running through a red light.

I'll agree that this was an OOO umpire. I would not (and have ont in the past) said anything. But is this national freaking news?

Apparently so.

It was covered in depth by a local Spokane TV station last night and it is in this morning's paper.

It's a common misconception that racism only exists in Dixie. Massachusetts is the home to South Boston. Remember South Boston.

BTW, what happened to your signature block? I liked it. I noticed that GarthB still has his.

English / Spanish
 

Well, speaking from experience with this kind of thing.
I agree that you can't specify what language is spoken on the field, but if the one team that speaks another language knows that next to no one will understand them, they will feel free to talk about what they intend to do. I once had the pleasure of working a four man crew for a 17-18 state final here in FL. One team was from Dade county, and the other was from ST. Lucie county (a little north of Dade).
Without implying any rasism, The Dade team was all hispanic, the other a mix of white & black (found out later, that no one on this team spoke spanish). No one on the crew spoke spanish, Dade getting hammered, guys are getting rowdy, things being yelled all over the field.

Long story short, ended up with 2 coached & 2 players EJ'd from the Dade team, cops called to the field because the EJ'd coaches & players started to get into it with the fans of the other team. I honestly believe that there was malicous play openly being discussed, taunting and other things being said that the crew didn't understand. If we had, I'm sure that there would have been more visits to the parking lot.

from a different angle...
 

Think about the sitch like this...

You are a VOLUNTEER umpire who is calling a game between two very competative teams. One coach starts directing things using words you can't understand. You think that coaches are rats and therefore this one is up to no good. You aren't sure if he has done anything wrong, after all it's not in the rule book. You ask the TD if it's ok. TD says no, so you issue a ruling.

To me it looks like the umpire asked the TD if this was permissable and the TD said no. Now the umpire, who is a volunteer, is publicly flogged while the TD hides in the shadows. Seems to me like the TD should be the one answering questions, not the umpire.

As much as I detest LL umpires and their shenanigans, they do play a role in their organizations and are needed for kids to enjoy the game.

Gee, we are in America - shouldn't we learn English? And how does not speaking Spanish loose a baseball game? Let's gt real here!

Why, Why, Why .........................
 

Why do our brethren in blue continue to involve themselves in things on or around the ballfield that have no bearing on the reason they are at the field, TO OFFICIATE THE GAME !!!

Aren't we open for enough abuse just doing our job without going and digging in the $h!t for trouble ?

When will some of us learn ?!?


Doug

Apparently so.

It was covered in depth by a local Spokane TV station last night and it is in this morning's paper.

[/B][/QUOTE]
It was covered in today's paper and on last night's news here in Dixie, also. So it's coast to coast coverage. The link that was attached to the original post was from a Florida site. Hopefully it will become legend so no umpire will be so stupid to pull this again.

[Edited by DG on Jul 30th, 2005 at 09:23 PM]

FYI,

Also made the Sports section of the Chicago Tribune this morning.

JM

I wonder if the sensationalism of this story has any direct connection to the fact that Latin/American baseball players are now so prevolant in major league baseball.

I thought back to earlier this month when the allstar homerun derby was held in Detroit. Under the new format 8 countries were represented. 5 of these countries were spanish speaking nations.

There is a HUGE following of spanish speaking fans across the globe in MLB today. What might have been seen as a rather mundane story, will now cause a big enough stir in the Latin/American community that media outlets will profit from this story.

Just an observation.

Tim.

I don't know how newsworthy it is, but obviously the entire national mainstream media has jumped on it. If they think they can get a racist slant going, the mainstream media will report the facts and see if it takes off. Sells a lot of papers, for whatever reason.

But Rich, the point of your post is dead on accurate. LL (R) has developed a lot of success over the years with it's program, and the TV coverage of the 12 yo tourney puts a huge target on their back. The organization takes a lot of abuse from people who don't know the difference between LL Baseball Inc., PONY, Dixie Youth, AAU, Dizzy Dean, USSSA, IBC, American Legion, Local Community Rec Dept. etc. All of these organizations have their good points. They also all have bad points. They all have good umpires, and they all have really really crappy umpires. Same goes with coaches, players and parents. So the guys who bash LL without specific instances they can attribute to the actual organization, are simply bashing rec ball in general, but lump it all in to LL Inc. It's not always entirely accurate and hurts their credibility.

That being said, the guys who bash LL Inc. because of something factual that happened to them personally, or to someone they know, have every right to single out the organization with their opinions. They are speaking from experience. Tee has actually given specific examples in the past of issues he personally had with the organization. Those should be told, if he feels it necessary, and he maintains credibility. He dislikes the organization because of the reasons he has posted or published in the past that are most likely factual. He doesn't, in my opinion, bash LL Inc. because it is the what the masses think rec ball is. Most other bashers tend to fall in the second category. They bashing rec ball, but calling it LL.

All I'm saying is when speaking of youth ball in general, it is more accurate and gives more credibility if talking about a specific league, identify it. If it is just rec ball in general, don't call it LL, or PONY, or any of the others unless you are sure that is the organization.

I've been reading and corresponding with Tee for years, and I don't recall his ever providing a list of specific incidents he personally experienced with Little League, which left him with the disdain he holds for the organization. I have always understood his dislike for "youth baseball" in general to be based in his belief that baseball is NOT a "kid's game," it is in fact a game invented by and for adults.

My own pet theory, not about Tee specifically but about LL-bashers in general, is they must have had a traumatic experience with Little League when they were 12.

Thats like 2 towns over from me. It's all over the news here. Kids should be able to speak any language,sure they should at least be able to understand it;however not everyone can. As an umpire i like to know whats going on,and being said,but if the kid can't speak english then you have to understand. Ump was way out of line.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Hensley

Quote:

I've been reading and corresponding with Tee for years, and I don't recall his ever providing a list of specific incidents he personally experienced with Little League, which left him with the disdain he holds for the organization. I have always understood his dislike for "youth baseball" in general to be based in his belief that baseball is NOT a "kid's game," it is in fact a game invented by and for adults. My own pet theory, not about Tee specifically but about LL-bashers in general, is they must have had a traumatic experience with Little League when they were 12.

As a part-time "LL Basher", I can tell you that your one size fits all theory doesn't fit all. I was lucky enough to be raised in a small upstate New York town that didn't have LL or organized youth ball. We played "sand lot" ball during the summer and school ball during the spring upon reaching junior high.

During the summer we would gather at Jim "Mouse" Knauss' house and wait unitl enough kids showed up to form two teams of at least 6 players per team. Then we walked to the corner lot at Ontario Street and Orchard Park Street, across from the P&C grocery store and the GLF farm supply, tossed the ball around for a few minutes, chose up sides and started to play. No parents, no coaches, no fans. Just kids playing baseball and having the time of our lives.

We'd break for lunch and get back together and play until dinner, then come back and play until the street lights came on, the universal signal to head home. I remember riding my bike with my glove dangling off the left handle bar and my bat across the handle bars held in place precariously by my thumbs.

How did we learn fundamentals? In the back yard with Dad, or watching the big kids practice at the high school. We knew the lineups of the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants and would assume the persona of one of them. When I pitched, I was Whitey Ford (as were most left handers), when I played first I was Gil Hodges, even though he was a "righty".

We didn't have uniforms, but we knew who was on which side. There were no ejections, no swearing, no screaming, no guilt laden lectures. Oh, yeah, I already mentioned that there were no coaches and no parents, didn't I?

Bottom line, we had fun, we learned about baseball and we played and played and played baseball. A couple of us played in high school and even college, so it didn't seem to hurt us to not have the "advantages" of Little League.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB

Quote:

Bottom line, we had fun, we learned about baseball and we played and played and played baseball. A couple of us played in high school and even college, so it didn't seem to hurt us to not have the "advantages" of Little League.

In my neighborhood, we had an elaborately built "league" of wiffle-ball teams, and Ben Williams' backyard provided us the perfect wiffleball field. The clothesline pole was first base, the base of the slide on the swingset was 2nd base, and the middle pole on the privacy fence was third base. A ball hit over Ben's fence that went in the alley was an out; to get a homerun, you had to hit it over Ben's fence, the alley, AND the next-door neighbor's fence. And, if you hit a homerun, you had to retrieve the ball yourself, and incur the risk of being eaten alive by the neighbor's German Shepherd.

Like you, we played those wiffleball games morning, noon and night until it was too dark to see, with one exception. We took timeout to ride our bikes to Little League practice (where, coincidentally enough, Ben's dad was our coach) and we had family and neighborhood outings twice a week on Little League game days, down at Rick Oden park right next to Duck Creek. I don't remember the outcome of any single LL game I played, but I remember the post-game trips down Garland Road to the local Baskin-Robbins. Nothing like a double-dip cone of Rocky Road on a balmy summer evening to reward (or console) yourself for whatever just happened on the Little League field.

So, it is possible to have your sandlot games and more formally organized Little League (or whatever brand of youth ball is popular in any given area), both.

<i> Originally posted by GarthB </i>

<b> I was lucky enough to be raised in a small upstate New York town that didn't have LL or organized youth ball. We played "sand lot" ball during the summer and school ball during the spring upon reaching junior high.

No parents, no coaches, no fans. Just kids playing baseball and having the time of our lives. </b>

Garth you touched on what's IMO the problem with Youth Sports in General - You do not see Pick-up Games anymore. If there isn't a scheduled practice or Game, then for the most part kids do not play.

Baseball is NOT the Sport of choice anymore. I do not know about your area, but the Sport that has taken off in my area "like Wildfire" is LaCross. LaCross has taken many a good athlete not only from baseball but from football as well.

IMO, there is simply TOO MUCH baseball year around. In addition to playing sandlot, we played ALL sports. There was no FALL baseball because we were getting ready for football/basketball season. There are teams today that play almost a MLB type schedule meaning some 100 games year-round.

As far as LL or any other "youth organization" goes it is only as good as the individuals who run it. You can have a great Boy/Girl Scout experience or not depending upon whom the troop leader is, etc.

Also, let's face it for the most part "youth sports" is nothing more than a baby-sitting service so that Mom/Dad can have aday to themselves while LJ is at the Field all day.

Pete Booth

I may be wrong, just going from memory though, but Tee posted briefly at some point on a run-in (probably via email) with Andy Konyer about something he was inquiring about, or challenging Andy on. As a result, he seems to disdain that particular organization, which is his perogotive.

My only point was to lump all youth ball as LL is not an accurate statement. And I believe Pete** summed up what I was trying to say best, in that the local organization of whatever group is only as good as the people running it. A poorly run local branch reflects horribly on the national organization within that particular community.

**Edited to give Pete credit for his post instead of someone else

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hensley Quote: As a part-time "LL Basher", I can tell you that your one size fits all theory doesn't fit all. I was lucky enough to be raised in a small upstate New York town that didn't have LL or organized youth ball. We played "sand lot" ball during the summer and school ball during the spring upon reaching junior high. During the summer we would gather at Jim "Mouse" Knauss' house and wait unitl enough kids showed up to form two teams of at least 6 players per team. Then we walked to the corner lot at Ontario Street and Orchard Park Street, across from the P&C grocery store and the GLF farm supply, tossed the ball around for a few minutes, chose up sides and started to play. No parents, no coaches, no fans. Just kids playing baseball and having the time of our lives. We'd break for lunch and get back together and play until dinner, then come back and play until the street lights came on, the universal signal to head home. I remember riding my bike with my glove dangling off the left handle bar and my bat across the handle bars held in place precariously by my thumbs. How did we learn fundamentals? In the back yard with Dad, or watching the big kids practice at the high school. We knew the lineups of the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants and would assume the persona of one of them. When I pitched, I was Whitey Ford (as were most left handers), when I played first I was Gil Hodges, even though he was a "righty". We didn't have uniforms, but we knew who was on which side. There were no ejections, no swearing, no screaming, no guilt laden lectures. Oh, yeah, I already mentioned that there were no coaches and no parents, didn't I? Bottom line, we had fun, we learned about baseball and we played and played and played baseball. A couple of us played in high school and even college, so it didn't seem to hurt us to not have the "advantages" of Little League.

I remember playing pickup games barefoot, in fields that had sandspurs in spots, with one bat and a baseball that was taped up with electrical tape. Pickup games were spontaneous so everyone might not be equipped to play but we did. Some of the players had gloves, but most did not. But, we also played in local leagues with uniforms and regular baseballs, and fans that did not get out of hand. We had all stars at the end and the ones that made it went on to play more and the others went to the local swimming hole. And there were no street lights to play under around here.

The first time I watched the movie "The Sandlot" I yearned for those days gone by. I was then saddened by the reality that my own kids exist in an era where they don't have those same neat experiences.

And most of the time when parents complained my practices were too hard I would tell them I used to ride a bicycle three miles to practice, either with a friend on the handlebars, or I was on the handlebars with a friend pedaling. Then practice and ride back. Then Dad might ask me to cut the grass, and then I would spend time before dark throwing a baseball, or a hard rubber ball about the same size as a baseball, against the 2 feet of brick above the foundation, just before the asphalt shingles, getting hundreds of ground balls to field. And if I missed and broke a shingle Dad didn't say a word. Most of my off the field practice time was on ground balls. I can not imagine how much time I would have spent if I only knew about tees and nets back then.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Lyle
[B]It's a common misconception that racism only exists in Dixie. Massachusetts is the home to South Boston. Remember South Boston.

Bob:

When you bring up South Boston I presume you are referring to the incidents that happened during forced busing in the seventies. That was THIRTY YEARS AGO! Have you ever been to South Boston?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David M
[B]And your point is?? A lot of crap happened in a lot of places during that time. "Racist Dixie" had it's problems. The "Enlightened Northeast" had their problems. They both still do. The north may or may not be worse, but only the people who are discriminated against know in their particular area. The national media is based in N.Y. It is possible Northeast problems are glossed over while southern problems hit front page nationally. But writers and publishers would never have a particular slant, would they?

If you think the area in which you live doesn't have bigotry and racism, you are wearing rose colored blinders and basically ignorant of the area around you. It would be awesome if it didn't exist, but unfortunately it does.

And ultimately, I believe, Rich was simply making a tongue in cheek dig at Massachusetts, which is traditionally thought of as the most liberal state in the Country.

My post was directed at Bob Lyle's allusion to incidents that happened in South Boston thirty years ago. My point is that what happened then has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Methuen last week. He is disparaging a community based on three decade old information.

Believe me I do not wear rose colored blinders. I realize there is racism and bigotry everywhere.

BTW I am not from South Boston but I do know many good people from there.