Sorry for the late post, been busy but thought I was share.

Last Wendesday I made about a 35 minute trip to help out an offical who had someone bail out on him at the last minute. Anyways, this was a 2 game set with teams from within the city playing each other.

I worked the dish the first game (boy was it hot!) and of course I was in the field in second. First game went fine, no real problems. But (that famous <s>last</s> middle word), the second game was a little different.

It was the top of the 4th, bases packed, 1 out. I signal to my partner infield fly and he reflects so we know we are on the same page.

Pop fly to the right side, it was somewhat close to the line therefore I just pointed and let my partner verbalize the call. So he did and I did as well. The second baseman took the fly and he did not make the catch. Now, the batter-runner is out and all hell breaks loose. The coach is yelling to throw to first (the runners took off about half way). So the second baseman throws to first -- I've got nothing -- and now the coach tells the players to throw home where the runner on third is trying to score. The throw comes home and he touches the plate -- my partner has nothing. The coach starts yelling in joy "that's a triple play." Ohhh boy, my first thought was (to myself) was WOW!. Anyways, the coach comes out and start complaining that we didn't call infield fly and the changes his arguement to that we didn't say it loud enough. With the not calling it arguement, he says I didn't see you do this (putting both his hands in the air with the plam open -- "dead ball". I tell him that an infield fly has never been a dead ball. The inning continues and they get out of it. As I'm going back to position A to start the bottom of the inning one of the assistant coaches (who is coaching first) starts talking to me.

He asks if I asks if that type of situation would occur again if I would say "infield fly" louder. I tell him that I don't have any problem saying it louder but that the players also need to be aware of what infield fly is and that's not my job. He tells me that some of these players only play during the summer and that "they don't get much practice time." I tell him that if the players were taught what the steal and bunt sign were that it takes about the same amount of time to teach infield fly. At this point, it is obvious to me that all these coaches care about is winning. All of a sudden, one of those wonder fans who thinks he is above the rules of the game starts yelling at me: "Why are you still talking?" I ignore the first time and I continue my situation of explaining things to the first base coach. As I'm finishing up, he says it again: "Why are you still talking?" I reply by saying, this conversation doesn't include you so please stay out of it. He was dumb enough to speak out again and make another statement: "Hey blue, you are still talking and I don't know why?" At this point (this fan had already got a warning from my partner whenever my partner was explaining the infield fly situation to the coach). So the time had come: "Time!" Sir, your time has expired here, you must leave. "Why?? Why?? I only said one thing, I'm not leaving." As I'm walking to my partner I hear (from his wife I assumed), "you don't have the power to do that." I tell my partner that we aren't continuing the game until he leaves. He finally left and the game went on, with no other problems.

Gotta love summer league games! :)

PS: If you made it through the entire thread.. congrats! :) Sorry for the long post.

So, lets get this straight. You let a spectator get to you and now your bragging about it.

No, never said that. Just telling my story and stating that with summer leagues also comes many rats. That's it.

[Edited by tjones1 on Jul 25th, 2005 at 12:00 PM]

Sounds like the game was better without the spectator... I think that's a good reason for removal.

tjones,
I had a similar situation last year with about the same results, but it was a playoff game ending situation. Caoches and fans screaming.
I explained as best I could, the rule and the signal and the results would stand. I must tell you, I would not have let the fan get to me. They are ignorant of the rules and so feel they can scream what they want when they want. I wouldn't have gotten into any discussion with him - particularly if the coach with whom you were speaking was being polite. I wasn't there, so I don't know how much you had already taken. I just know, I do my best to let the fans have their game outside the fences and I take care of mine inside the fences.
This is just my $ .02 and does not imply that what you did was wrong.
Just my opinion.

I was BU in one game and after a certain call the fans started yelling stuff at one of the coaches to the point were it got so out of hand the PU cleared the stands and told everyone they could watch the game from the parking lot.

Exactly my point. Thank you.

After the game I was told by my partner (the assignor of the league) that this isn't the first problem they've had with this fan. I guess usually they get first year college kids to work these game and I was told he usually tries to take advantage of them. Of course, since the kids are trying to make a little extra money they've never done anything about it since they think they won't be invited back.


officialtony,

The coach really wasn't being polite, more of a smartass. After that inning, I did not see him for the rest of the game. I would say that I really don't think I let the fan get to me, I could really careless what they think about my calls or me. However, I felt like it wasn't going to get any better allowing this type of behavior to occur. He had already been warned by my partner for his earlier actions that took place. I guess I just felt like another warning wouldn't have did any good considering the first one really didn't. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. ;) Thanks for your input Tony.

You certainly are entitled to that opinion, we'll just agree to disagree.

"Why are you still talking?"... Why would you throw a fan out for saying this? I think I would have looked over at him, made eye contact with him, smiled nice, and waved to him. Really gets them when I do that. If I'm at Yankee Stadium and I start yelling at the umpires, I don't think they will stop the game and have me removed.

Re: agree to disagree
 

Works for me . . . . .
Thanks

I don't think you can compare Yankee stadium to a summer league game. Actually, you can't compare them at all. Parents/fans should be ignored at the high school/college level and up, but summer ball is totally different. Out of control parents/fans should be dealt with in these games...period. They should not be paid attention to as much as coaches or players, but if they are persistent with their remarks, they should be taken care of. Considering the situation and that he was already warned, the right thing was done. I don't take it as bragging tj like jiiecone. Some of the hot dogs on here think that they have to be a smart-alec about every thread and reply posted. My words to you are "good work"

Right On Dude

Some of us HOT DOGS, have just developed a thickerer skin over the years. But if it works for you Dude, GO FOR IT.

You can talk about thicker skin all you want jice. I'd just like to see you in action if a parent or fan during a summer ball game was saying something after every single play or pitch being a smart-a$$. I wonder if you hot-dogs could ignore that when you can't even ignore one opportunity to be a smart-a$$ to another umpire on an online forum. Sounds like you're REALLY thick-skinned to me buddy!!!

Oh Boy
 

Let's say we agree that "out of control parents/fans shoud be dealt with...period." It really is not our job to do this...period. If this guy was known to be a problem, why didn't the league administrator's do something about it?

This isn't about being thick skinned either. This is about doing the job we are paid for and not other's jobs. We are paid to take care of things that happen "inside the fence." If the league does not want to remove the fan from the stands for showing his tail and you would like the league to do such; you have two choices 1) ask them to take care of it away from the game or 2) don't work those games.

tjones, you really were wrong to do this. While we might all agree he deserved to go, you were not within your rights to do so...period.

dudeinblue and tjones1,

It sounds as if you both still have a bad case of " rabbit ears."
Leave what's going on outside of the fence alone unless you feel the spectator is inciting a team to the point that it is beginning to spill over on to the field, or there language becomes profane and abusive.

Then, if you feel the need to have a spectator removed, either find a league official, or an athletic director to take the matter into their hands.

IMO you are heading for trouble if you continue to address the fans in regards to there actions.

Also IMO the wife was right and we have no authority to " eject" a spectator.

Tim.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As umpires, we are the only ones in the world expected to be perfect on our first day on the job, and improve from there.

That's one of the main reasons to eject a parent...if what they are saying or doing spills onto the field. I could care less otherwise. It must be different where you all umpire because where I'm at, they tell us in summer ball to eject parents/fans that cause problems. I do play deaf most of the time and ignore the idiots and think that is the way it should be handled most of the time, but around here it seems as though fans getting tossed are just as normal as coaches or players. Some of the fans of kids ages 8-14 are complete psychos. This is how they learn, and this is why you see better behaved parents and fans at the older level.

At a summer league 15U game I was BU. A fan started getting on the PU about his ball and strike calls. The PU ignored him till he started using profanities. At this point the PU said "Sir there are women and children present would you please watch your language". His response was "I can talk any f*****g way I please". The PU said no you can't and told him to leave the park. At this point the irate fan tried to enter the field thru a gate by the 1st base dugout. I met him there and said to come in here you're going to have to come thru me and that won't be easy! He was then grabbed by two off duty policemen (they showed me their badges)and escorted him away! That was the only time in 15 years of being an umpire that I received applause from the spectators.

P.S. I think the irate fan's name was Drumbum or something like that!

dude - I think perhaps the reason you are having to deal with fans in the manner that you are is that your field admin has managed to foist his duties off on you. And you let him, and took up the charge.

In my entire career, I've ejected 2 fans - and those were simultaneous. These two were making such a racket, cursing and berating both me and the players, that we actually had players stop what they were doing. I looked for field admin, and they were apparently dealing with a mound issue quite far from me. Technically, I didn't eject them, but I did inform the coach of their team that we weren't playing until he got those two into the parking lot.

But I STILL felt like I could have handled that better. We, as umpires, have authority ON the field to handle issues ON the field, in order to maintain a fairly played game. We should not be put into a position where we are forced to personally deal with people outside the fences.

Crowder- you are exactly right and I agree 100% with you. We are to officiate "on the field" and that is the way I do it as I've only had to throw out 2 fans as well and they were both simultaneous (one was a woman with one leg!!). Sometimes I do let fans get to me but I still choose to ignore it. Fans piss me off, but I ignore them. Here in East Tennessee we are told by our assignor and by every single tournament director to dump any fans that give us problems, while most of them say problems do not include arguing, but only when they get personal with you. I try to handle it professionally and play the deaf ear, but when you umpire with guys who throw parents out as regular as coaches, it makes you think twice. But I definately agree with your statement. It's just at these little parks with kids playing, if you have some idiotic parent going on about something, most of the time it seeps to the other parents, then to the coach, and then to the players which ends in a complete catastrophe. Couldn't these situations be prevented?

Re: Oh Boy
 

The league administrator's did do something about it, after he was removed from the game. This type of sportsmanship is not approved in my area for this league. I would agree that if it was high school or higher that it might be different. But whenever you are trying to set examples for kids, I think that's a different story.

I could be wrong and I would certainly have no problem admitting I was. Good day.

I don't know how it is where you're at Tony, but here when an umpire ejects a fan from the game, they have to leave...period. Also, we have the authority to do this...period. There can't be a tournament director at every field there buddy

Dude, Tjones, and others....I have never ejected a fan in 12+ years of umpiring. Only once did I talk to a fan and it could have gotten me in hot water. In a 9-10 game, during my first season, there was a group of people in and around the dugout giving my partner and I a rash of crap about a hit batter. I got tired of it and looked over at the dugout, at a lady, who I thought was actually in the dugout, and told her to knock it off. She intercepted me as I was leaving and gave me a bunch more grief, including insuating that I was a racist, and I was green enough to stand there and take it. First time, last time of conversing with a fan.

I am not sure where in the rules you are garnering your authority to throw out fans, but I'd be curious to see it.

As long as the fan isn't profane or obscene, they have a right to make an a** of themselves. Usually they will go on and on until somebody bigger and meaner tells them to shut up. Problem solved.

If they are profane or obscene, get a game administrator. If no admin exists, get the coaches together (unless it's clear a fan belongs to one side) and instruct them to handle the problem. If all of that fails, ask for someone to call the authorities. Have them remove the person. In all of the scenarios you have had no direct interaction with the fan, which is the way it should be.

If you are calling AAU or USSSA tourneys, I can't believe that the admins want you to throw out fans. That is their job.

If this is happening (umpires dumping fans) more than once in a blue moon, then something has to give. You may need to meet with the league officials. You may need to call elswhere. You may need to look in the mirror and see if you can do something to change it.

Finally, if dumping fans is something you do and you don't see why it's just not an accepted practice among umpires, you need to re-examine the credentials of those giving the advice. I am just one guy from NC but Mr. Carilli is a competant authority and he gave the same advice.

Lawrence

Very well said, Lawrence.

There is someone at any game, even if it is only the home manager, that is responsible for the fans. Let them do their job, and you do yours as an umpire.

Actually Lawrence, in the USSSA rulebook it states under rule 9.02:

"Any player, coach, or parent/fan, whose conduct is unbecoming or abusive will, at minimum, be warned and may be removed from the playing field and/or stands at the discretion of the tournament officials and/or umpires."

You say to let the tournament directors handle this...well lets see. You have to pause the game and go find the tournament director and point out to them the parent/fan whom you want to leave. I'd say this is the exact same thing as throwing somebody out. There's just no way around it. For example: the other day at the 10 year old AABC regionals I was PU. There was a runner on 1st base that stole and the catcher throws down and the runner is barely safe. Well, of course, the team in the field thought he was out so one of the dad's on the side of the fence climbs halfway up and screams at the top of his lungs: "You stink blue, what the hell kind of a damn call was that?"

He had to go Lawrence. No questions asked. And you know who took care of it? My partner, not the tournament director. My partner threw him out and the tournament director made sure he left. That's just the way I've always seen it. The tournament director wasn't down there and he didn't hear it. So do we just ignore this? Of course not! Do we leave it up to the tournament director? Heck no! The tournament director backs us up 100% or he knows he will lose some umpires. There are just too many objections to your point.

I'm not sure how this works. Fan mouths off and you tell him he has to leave. Fan says, "Up yours." You say, "I have the authority to make you leave." Fan says, "Up yours! Why don't you go eat some $hit?" Now what?

Where do these game administrators come from? Most of the time, even at high school games, I don't know if there is an AD or anyone connected with the school (other than coaches). I have never seen a game administrator for AAU, Babe Ruth (except for TDs at tournaments), American Legion, MABL, MSBL, NABA, industrial leagues, you name it. From time to time, county police swing by games at county parks but you can't depend on it. Similarly, they usually come through school parking lots as you are getting ready to leave (activity and lights in the parking lot around 11 PM gets their attention).

Other than each other, may partner and I usually have nothing, no resources, to deal with an irate fan (or player for that matter) other than the general good will of whomever happens to be there. (Cell phone, pepper spray, and SIG-Sauer .45 ACP in the car if I can get there.)

Oh Well,
 

In 36 years I have never considered ejecting a fan.

Never,

Not once,

Nada.

I umpire the game.

Dude,

Thanks for the rule citation. Doesn't mean that I agree with it but you have a rule, at least in USSSA, that supports your authority.


It would seem that the examples you cite are on small diamond games. I am not criticizing working those games. I have been there and know there are some crazy fans out there. But I can tell you this, at the HS, Legion, and beyond levels you cannot get away with throwing fans out of the game. I know of one ejection outside of the field this year in my area. A concession stand worker, where the stand is located near the first base line, called the base umpire a blind SOB (actually he said it a second time just so the BU could hear him clearly). The worker was removed by the legion athletic director at the request of the umpire. But the umpire didn't actually throw him out physically.

I will trust you that umpires ejecting fans is a common and accepted practice in your area. But I think you should also realize that in most other areas of the US, this isn't something that's a normal practice.

Lawrence

Okay Lawrence, we must have been a little confused then man, because that's what I was talking about.... little kids baseball. I know, you're exactly right about the older kids and I agree 100%. We just miscommunicated a little bit, sounds to me as if we're on the exact same page on this issue. It is a norm around here but not for me, I don't agree with it other than in extreme situations like the one I cited earlier either. Sorry if I sounded like a smart-alec on the earlier post. So Tim C, what would you do in the situation I posted earlier? Keep ignoring? Please tell me because I am curious to know. Any of the big dogs please let me know if we are supposed to "never" throw out fans even considering the age of the players. DG? Carl? DownTown? Mick? Bob?

again, i fail to see where the changing of the seasons has anything to do with the changing of how you umpire other than the fact that you dont wear plate coats in july.

Quote:

Out of control parents/fans should be dealt with in these games...period.

i babysit my 4 year old cousin on occasion when they cant find anyone else. if i wanted to babysit, i would call up my aunt/uncle, not a baseball assignor.

Good one Brain. You got me so much that I am speechless and I'll just let you look like a fool on this one.

Oh Well
 

Dude if you are happy doing the job of the administrator, well then god bless you. It seems that you are pretty sure that you've got all the answers which, I guess, is OK for a young umpire (or someone who is new to umpiring, which is the same thing). We have a enough to do on the field without concerning ourselves with the stands, I think. But the rules makers and administrators (league or tournament or whatever) are happy having us be the bad guys...do you blame them? Really, who wants to be the bad guy? Certaintly not the administrators or nongame officials. It's really a simple case of pushing the cost of something on to somebody else. Some of us gladly accept that cost, while others of us don't or won't. Doing our jobs on the field is usually enough to make alot of the fans mad at us, why go stick your head into the lion's mouth if you don't have to?

Finally, I can assure you this, if your goal is to move up beyond put-a-bunch-of-letters-together baseball you really shouldn't conern yourself with fans...period.

Tony

My Goodness
 

Yes, do not throw them out. The fan's aren't 10 year olds (although the act that way). The fan's you are talking about are typically adults, not children. I think the age of the players is a smoke screen you are using to justify something you just shouldn't do. Ignore them always. The fans who are offended are ignoring them, hoping somebody else will take care of the problem so should you.

there is a fence around the field for a reason, to separate the players/umpires from the fans. it separates the game from the outside. if you want to handle the fans and what goes on outside of the fence, become a park police officer. if you want to deal with whats inside the fence, be an umpire. very, very seldom do the two mix in my eyes.

Well seeing how I started this brohahah (sp?), I am going to jump in here and I don't know what size my dog really is on this forum.

Twice, in 20 years I have had to have unruly fans taken care of in baseball. Once in a LL tournament and one in Legion ball. Each time I got someone to do my dirty work for me.

The first time the dad was drunk and kept telling his son the pitcher to hit the batters in the head because they were losing. "That will stop their hitting ," he said. It got to the point that we had the tourament director come to the field and take care of him.

The second time I was in a heated argument was because the batter moved in a way, in the box, (with a runner on third), that I felt caused the pitcher to stop his motion. I called time and said that we would restart the pitch.

The manager came out and argued that there was no such thing as a "do over." In the middle of our heated, nose to nose discussion a fan yelled from behind the back stop, "Punch him out, coach." At the end of our discussion I said, "Coach, this is the way it is and the discussion is over. Now will you kindly take care of that fan." His reply was, "Your dead wrong and yes I will."

I can't say that you are NEVER, EVER suppose to deal directly with the fans or that it is totally possible to ignor every remark out there, because too many different scenarios happen. But, for the most part staying calm, cool and collective has always helped me to make better, and more rational decisions, in some very sticky moments.

MOST OF ALL, I think it frys their Butts even more, knowing they can't get to me.

Just My Opinion.

<i> He asks if I asks if that type of situation would occur again if I would say "infield fly" louder. </i>

I agree with Jicecone, Lawrence and TEE. As they say in Brooklyn NY when it comes to Fans - "Forget about it" If the Fan is that unruly and making it virtually impossible to continue to do the game then let the TD / Coaches handle. If they do not it's an easy pay-day.

IMO, the point that no-one has brought up concerning this post is why you bothered to respond to a coach who said "if I would say "infield fly" louder".

My response would be "What did you say I can't hear you"
Do not even converse with coaches who Do not know the rules and are that ignorant. They got "burned" and are now trying to put the blame on blue. Simply walk off into right field somewhere and do not even respond to such nonsense. Chances are the Coach will not follow.

As umpires we simply give the rule and respond to questions about the interpretation of it and that's it. We do not RESPOND to "can we say it louder next time"

Chances are if you simply walked away none of the fan nonsense would have occured as well.

Pete Booth

It would be nice if some of you all would read previous posts. I NEVER throw out fans with the exception of one time. I'm not trying to play administrator Tony. What you all are describing by saying tell the coach or the TD, is basically throwing them out anyways. A fan is not going to leave if you (as an umpire) tell him, you have to get the TD or tell the coach to handle it. Any way you look at it, it is throwing the fan out, even if you dont say directly to the fan "you're out of here!".

angel hernandez got randy marsh to call the pressbox and have former chicago bear steve mcmichael ejected from wrigley field when he sang the 7th inning stretch and said he would have a talk with angel for out he called at home plate to end the bottom of the 6th. i thought that was hilarious

Gee Whiz
 

Carefully read what I wrote. I didn't write that you were playing administrator. I wrote that nongame officials are trying to get you to do their job. You wrote in an earlier post that This implies that not only other there other reasons to eject parents, but also that there are other main reasons to eject parents.

Furthermore, if you are going to exhort me to read earlier posts, please do the same. I did not write that you should have the fan removed. I wrote that you should ignore the fans. If the nongame officials want the fans to behave let them take care of it. No where did I write that you should have someone else remove them.

Please be careful to whom you address your exhortions. I try, carefully, to chose my words when I give advice to young umpires. I neither wrote nor implied that you have thrown fans out multiple times. I did however, suggest, that concerning yourself with things outside the fence is not productive in a number of ways including managing what is going on on the field and advancing beyond alphabet-soup baseball.

Careful with your words. I like that and probably need to do more of that. Also, good criticism of my previous post about "main reasons to eject parents". Sometimes I type without thinking. But you did type:

"Dude if you are happy doing the job of the administrator, well then god bless you"

From this I imply that you are saying I am playing the job of administrator. Is this a wrong implication?

Yes, it is. Playing administrator and being the administrator are two different things. Non-game officials take care of non-game issues, ie, outside the fence. Umpires (game officials) take care of things inside the fence. Again, I don't think it productive to wear both hats. As Adam Smith taught us in the Wealth of Nations, specialization leads to increased productivity. But, hey, if you are happy assuming the role of both game and non-game official be forwarned that your productivity as each will be greatly diminshed.

I don't play both and never said that I do. Again, read previous posts and you will see my explanation and opinion on the matter

First time this weekend, I ever dealt with a fan. In a State Tournament final for 16-18 year olds a batter was hit by a pitch. A fan started cussing, and I asked the tournament folks to get rid of the cusser. They said they did not know who it was so I pointed him out, the guy in the yellow shirt. The fans were hollering that it was his son that got hit, and I said that don't matter, and then returned to the plate where his coaches (and the coaches from the other team had brought ice out of their dugout) were helping him. He appeared to be in great pain, but after a few minutes he was able to 1B continue playing. However, he was subbed for on defense and returned later in the game after sitting in the dugout with ice on his forearm. The administration apparently had a discussion with the father because he stayed in the park but did not cuss anymore. Apparently, he convinced them he could behave. Alls well that ends well.

Everywhere we go there will be that one obnoxious fan or parent. Asking me why I was still talking would not warrant an ejection from me. That would be an easy comment for me to deal with. I've never thrown a fan even when they've loudly stated that I must be sleeping with the entire amateur town ball team since they got all the calls going their way. Or being called a b***** or worse. Is it easy to ignore? Not always. I think it helps to work hard at the game....hustle, be in position,study rules, sell calls, etc. Those things will breed more confidence in yourself which lead to more respect on the field and less of a desire or urge to have the fans affect your attitude. There's an umpire in our association that has been getting sucked in by the fans and engaging in negative banner with them this summer. The result?? The managers and coaches don't want to see him anymore. I'm not sticking up for the fans. They can be ridiculous at times. But if I allowed them to get to me it could wreak havoc on my game...something I don't want.

P.S. After the game when I was accused of sleeping with the team, I had some fans ask if they could be put on the roster as well. That actually shut down the original comments and gave me a much needed chuckle.

This is the exact way I would handle it. I have to ask though, did you have to pause the game or leave the field to find the tournament folks? I can make an observation that you didn't since the boy was hurt for a while. But for all of you who think I try to play TD, this is EXACTLY how I would handle this

Again, I didn't write play. You activley engaged the roll of non-game official. You have said as much in these quotes.

Again, it is because you have been asked by non-game officials to do there jobs for them and you have happily accepted it.
I don't think you can be as effective in either job, if you have to do both.

You're right. After discussing this issue with all of you guys, my opinions on dumping fans have definately changed. That's the point of discussing, so I can learn. I just want to learn. Thank you all

I take it, from your name here that you are female. I only know one female baseball umpire, and a very competent one at that. If I were female and someone hollered comments such as these in a family park, I think I would have to ask game management to deal with it.

Agreed

"Of course, since the kids are trying to make a little extra money they've never done anything about it since they think they won't be invited back."

Then your assignor isn't doing his job by not explaining how to handle these situations.

Bob

Pete,

Just to clarify, the fan did not say that to me and the coach is the one who took care of it as I asked him to.

I take it, from your name here that you are female. I only know one female baseball umpire, and a very competent one at that. If I were female and someone hollered comments such as these in a family park, I think I would have to ask game management to deal with it

DG, in that situation I asked game mgmt. to deal with those fans (overweight females). They didn't handle it well that night, but those fans were banned from the next 2 games which were playoffs. I do admit that night seems to stick with me more than I wish, but I believe I grew somewhat because of it. I've heard of other females that have quit because things got too hard to take. I'm not ready to do that. I love the game and am having a lot of success at it.

Hey, Guess what new trick I just learned? (unfortunately not soon enough)I just saw the little "quote" button. I'll try to behave next time..LOL

blue,

This could be true, but may not be. I would hope this would be explained, but I don't know for sure.

Either way, all in all, thanks for all your comments. Certainly got a lot of good input that I can think about and measure up to things. Tnx