...had this happen in a 14 y/o Pony League tournament game tonight. (Aside, I'm part of the Protest Committee and protests must be decided upon when lodged before a game can continue). I'm not sure if the following situation can be lodged as a protest. If it can, I know how I'd rule but I like to hear what the members think:
Halfway through the game, the home plate calls me over and asks me to watch a fan who is standing outside the fence but near the dugout. HP ump thinks that the fan is giving signals. Sure enough, he's flashing location (definitely) and pitch (possibly) to the catcher. After the inning, I concurred w/the HP ump, who quietly walked over to the coach and told him that if that guy wasn't a coach, it's time to move elsewhere. OBR 9.01e (2) only allows an umpire to eject, "any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field". Pony Tournament Rule #T-17 H states that, "Grievous individual misconduct, on the part of adult leaders or players, on or off the field, such as, but not limited to, fighting, drinking, publicly audible use of foul or abusive language, may result in the removal of an individual from further tournament play for the remainder of the tournament season." Unfortunately, these rules do not apply spectators. House tournament rules does allow an umpire to eject a fan and rules succession is: House Rules, then Pony Rules, then OBR. So, my questions are: 1. can a spectator flash signals to a player w/out penalty? 2. if there is a penalty, what rule and penalty applies? I would like to have something more than OBR 9.01c, "Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules." 3. is this something that an umpire can call or must he wait for a team to protest? Thanks in advance for your consideration. |
All I can say is that in our area they (PONY Baseball officials...i.e. tournament directors) warn the coaches that if a fan/parent communicates with the dugout or the players during the game that they will eject the manager of the team.
That usually solves that problem before it ever happens. |
Not being arrogant - just a question. Does PONY Baseball have a rule in their rule book prohibiting a fan from giving signs or signals?
Now if there is no rule; 1. What's the problem with a fan giving signs? 2. As an umpire, don't you have enough to worry about? Why are you adding fans to your long list of things that you have to deal with? 3. What is the difference between a coach giving signs or a fan giving signs? Now if you can show us a PONY specific rule, then the above questions do not apply. Here's a bit of help OBR 8.01 ..... Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber. Can you show me where it specifies where the signs come from? And what if the coach signs to the pitcher rather than the catcher - what is the penalty? |
Howdy, Ozzy...
...there is no rule (House, Pony, or otherwise) that specifically pertains to spectators giving signs to players. There is a House tournament rule that states, "Each team is limited to 4 adults (non-players) in the dugout. Other than being in the coaches boxes, coaches/managers must remain at their dugout fence, between the dugout openings". Pony Rule #16c - Managers and Coaches, states, "Players, managers and coaches shall remain in the dugouts, on the benches or in the prescribed areas throughout the game. Pony Tournament Rule #T-13b - Managers and Coaches, states, "The field manager, assisted by the coach, shall direct the team on the field of play and shall be responsible for the conduct of players both on and off the field"...
...ordinarily, I'd agree w/your point #2 about not looking for trouble because it'll end up finding you. There's just something that doesn't seem fair about this. And where would it stop: one could imagine having a spectator/coach for each player, positioning them on defense, swiping signals for them on offense, etc. To me, there's a distinction between coach and spectator: by rule, coaches can't coach outside the field of play. Should not the reverse apply to spectators?... |
Get real. Spectators "coach" all the time. "Bend your back and follow through, Timmy!" "Concentrate!" "Focus!" "Strike that mother effer out!"
There is no rule to prevent any of the above, including "flashing signals" by a spectator. The rule that stipulates pitchers should take their signs from the catcher while on the rubber is there to insure that pitchers follow a proscribed protocol for taking the rubber, and pausing (to get a sign, ostensibly) before beginning a pitching motion. As long as the pitcher is (1) not quick pitching and (2) not delaying the game by searching the dugout, the stands, or the sky for his sign and/or divine intervention, you have no problem. Why try to create one? |
I'm trying to figure out why A) an umpire or TD would WANT to get involved in such a situation, or B) why anyone on either side would care if Little Johnny is getting his pitches from Little Stevie's father.
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All sorts of trouble and evil come from that statement/sentiment, "...just doesn't seem *fair*".....
fair to whom? ..not your job to keep YOUR defintion of competitive balance outside of the rulebook. Stay in the rulebook and interps, leave the rest to the TD or whoever. |
Re: Howdy, Ozzy...
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It's NOT There. Deal with it and move on because it's sounding like a personal problem now, YOURS. |
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Umpire: "Coach, your out of here." GET SERIOUS WILL YOU! |
Golly,
I thought umpires had enough to worry about with things on the field.
How amazingly OOO. |
Re: Howdy, Ozzy...
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Thanks for the replies...
...I don't have any problems w/spectators cheering or booing players, umpires, etc. as that is part of the game. Whether it is as general as, "we need a strike out here" to something specific as, "play in, third...look out for the squeeze", these comments usually state the obvious. But something just seemed amiss when the catcher would look to a spectator instead of a coach to relay signals and call the game accordingly. Postings indicate that there's nothing wrong w/this, so if a protest arises, this will be my guide. Thanks again to all the posters...
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What everybody said. Who cares where the signs come from? If the manager says dad gives signs, that's his problem not the umpires.
If you are looking for a reason, probably on this team, dad is a former pitcher, or more likely catcher, who understands the philosophies of pitching, but actually works a real job instead of the fantasy job of coaching little Johnny to the Runt League World Series. He is probably not on team roster because he can't be at all practices or tourney games. Why waste a coaches slot on someone who isn't going to be there all the time, but can help when he is there. |
This is the coaches problem. If his team won't listen to him then he has bigger problems. As an ump. it's not your problem.
Any player of mine that listened to others rather than me became an expert on the different types of wood used in constructing benches. |
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Was talking about the original problem posted by the thread starter...i.e. signals from the stands. Personally, I think they're wasting their time...but he asked a question and it IS how they enforce it in our area. He didn't ask my opinion of it which you now know. |
I would love to see just one post where somebody did not think they had to be a smart-a$$ and think they were above everybody else on here. If you want to be a smart-a$$, do it on a thread about "head shots" or when drumbum had his spells
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Why Should We!
Dude:
You are a joke . . . that is why we comment as we do. I just wish that we could talk with administrators in your area to see how "real" umpires go their job in "Eastern Tennessee" . . . I think they would be embarrassed by your posts. |
Every single one of my administrators would speak highly of me Tim. Sorry if I'm not as eloquent with my words as you are or my knowledge of the game is not as great as yours. I would gladly speak with you via email or telephone about this (I say this kindly)
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One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about on field discussions works wonders off the field as well. The advice really is an exhortation "No question asked, no response needed." Just think about that for a bit, ie, pause, read, react. |
I respect your advice Tony. But it seems as though every response I get is a smart-a$$ response. It's tough not to respond to those with "yeah-buts"
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Now we're getting somewhere
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You asked me to do that b/c it is the only way that I can learn in a humble manner. It is necessary for my growth as an umpire b/c as you previously stated, how do I expect to handle situations on the field with people being smart-a$$es when I can't do it on a forum. I understand Tony. When I got onto this forum I expected other umpires, like you are, to help me out and teach me, to explain to me the "whys" and "why nots", to quote rules, to politely tell me when I am wrong, etc. So far, I haven't seen this much at all mainly because people like Tim calling me a f-ing idiot and refusing to give me an educated response, but instead a smart-a$$ comment. Surely I'm not the only one that feels this way. Tim is not the only one, basically all of the responses are like this. Nobody wants to hear "Read the rulebook you f-ing idiot". They want to hear what rule and an explanation. I am a student Tony, I don't expect to be degraded, but edified. Thanks alot man
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Yea, my comment was ridiculus but, that is what happens when people make up ridiculus rules. "Your not allowed to communicate with the players and coaches." Little Johnnies dad, who happens to be a lawyer and shows up late to watch Johnnie, will have a field day with that. My point is, there are enough rules in this game that most people don't know about, care about or understand. Making them up, just makes it worse. |
FYI
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You should take his 'tude with a grain of salt. Bottom line, despite his demeanor, he offers candid, accurate assessments and information. In the 3 years I have been on this board, I have learned a lot about game management and rules interps. That said - the quickest ways to set yourself up as an idiot is to 1)not know your rulebook and 2)word your posts like dumbdrum. |
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Thought of this thread again today as I was at a Pony tournament game, standing down the line. Was shouting things at our players like "charge the ball" and "backup" and "get to the ball quicker." Probably shouldn't be saying anything, but was trying to be supportive and helpful at the same time.
Pony director comes over and threatens to remove me if I keep "coaching" the kids. Pretty silly if you ask me...especially since they don't seem to say anything to a coach or parent berating kids. Priorities misguided IMO. Anyways, others nearby were commenting on how tired they were of this type of running of tournaments by the directors. Its wearing thin. Let fans be fans. [Edited by justbaseball on Jul 31st, 2005 at 05:37 PM] |
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I have no problem with the coach.
Is it indecent to say "back up?" Or "charge the ball?" Just normal things people yell from the stands. The TD needs to stop his power trip. Its very simple. No umpire had ANY problem with ANYTHING I or ANYONE else said. Nothing negative whatsoever. |
Your TD was out of line.
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