situation question

[dudeinblue]

1)B1. The offensive team has left their dugout gate open after being told before the game to have it closed at all times. The batter hits the ball to F9 and B1 goes to 3rd base. There is a wild throw and it goes into the dugout. What's the ruling?

2)B2. A wild pitch is thrown that sticks in the chain link fence behind me. If I recall the rulebook correctly, it is 2 bases, right?

I'm a young umpire of 21 years and I have just recently started doing very competitive baseball so try not to laugh if I sound stupid. Any feedback would be appreciated, thanks

[Tim C]

1) Dead ball and make the correct awards.

2) "One from the mound": The perfect cliche that works in this situation.

Invest in a rule book and #2 would have answered itself.

Remember, there are no dumb questions, just dumb people that ask them. :-)

[mick]

Originally posted by dudeinblue
1)B1. The offensive team has left their dugout gate open after being told before the game to have it closed at all times. The batter hits the ball to F9 and B1 goes to 3rd base. There is a wild throw and it goes into the dugout. What's the ruling?

dudeinblue,
The simple answer is that a ball thrown into dead ball territory is a two base award from time of throw.

...But your sitch doesn't necessarily meet that simplistic criteria, because the offensive team has created an unnatural opening and has produced more of a ground rule situation (missing fence area, hole in the fence, opening in the fence) that could have been covered with the managers at the plate meeting.

...But you kinda did cover it when you asked the team to have the gate closed at all times.

So, it seems, we must do what we're paid to do. We must adjudge fairness.
[*]1. If the defense had left the gate open, their throw through the gate could be rationalized as their gate, their problem --> two bases.[*]2. But, it was the offensive team's gate that was left open and awarding any more than one base would certainly be penalizing the defense for an offensive wrong-doing --> one base[*] 3. Had the gate been closed, as requested, the ball may (or may not) have taken an ugly bounce and the runners may have earned two bases, but possibly would have been held to only one.

For me, in your case, I would award one base time-of-throw.

A quick glance about the dugout area, with each new batter, may prevent such contingencies.

A thought: What if the gate was left open and the catcher going after a foul fly got tangled up in the chain-link gate before he touched the ball? Offensive interference? Batter out?

mick

[LDUB]

Originally posted by mick
[*]2. But, it was the offensive team's gate that was left open and awarding any more than one base would certainly be penalizing the defense for an offensive wrong-doing --> one base[*] 3. Had the gate been closed, as requested, the ball may (or may not) have taken an ugly bounce and the runners may have earned two bases, but possibly would have been held to only one.

For me, in your case, I would award one base time-of-throw.

No way Mick.

If you are OOO enough to tell them to close the gate after every batter, then go for it.

What rule are you citing to award one base? And dont say 9.01c.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

...But your sitch doesn't necessarily meet that simplistic criteria, because the offensive team has created an unnatural opening and has produced more of a ground rule situation (missing fence area, hole in the fence, opening in the fence) that could have been covered with the managers at the plate meeting.

...But you kinda did cover it when you asked the team to have the gate closed at all times.

So, it seems, we must do what we're paid to do. We must adjudge fairness.
[*]1. If the defense had left the gate open, their throw through the gate could be rationalized as their gate, their problem --> two bases.[*]2. But, it was the offensive team's gate that was left open and awarding any more than one base would certainly be penalizing the defense for an offensive wrong-doing --> one base[*] 3. Had the gate been closed, as requested, the ball may (or may not) have taken an ugly bounce and the runners may have earned two bases, but possibly would have been held to only one.

For me, in your case, I would award one base time-of-throw.

A quick glance about the dugout area, with each new batter, may prevent such contingencies.

mick

And after a quick glance around you might find the defense's gate open also... both teams had the same error but the offense just had a batter come out and leave the gate open... same penalty?

I think I wouldn't worry about gates and trying to enforce and extra rule. If they close it okay. If they don't and the defense throws it OOP then enforce the rule and award some bases. Tough luck. Bad throw. Next time make a good throw and catch the ball.

[mick]

Originally posted by LDUB

No way Mick.

If you are OOO enough to tell them to close the gate after every batter, then go for it.

What rule are you citing to award one base? And dont say 9.01c.

LDUB,
I don't think I am overly officious anymore. You see it wasn't me that asked them to close the gate.
I didn't cite a rule, but I guess if I had to cite one it would have to be 9.01C ( ) cuz 7.05 (g) doesn't feel good for the sitch given.
What should I do? Like DTTB implied DBT 2 bases? I can do that.
mick

[Tim C]

There is no way you can have a sliding scale of punishment.

You can give direction at the plate conference but it does not change the rules.

Gate open for whatever reason, whichever team, under any circumstances equals the same punishment.

Scold them if you want . . . but you cannot change the rules.

T

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Originally posted by mick

And after a quick glance around you might find the defense's gate open also... both teams had the same error but the offense just had a batter come out and leave the gate open... same penalty?

I think I wouldn't worry about gates and trying to enforce and extra rule. If they close it okay. If they don't and the defense throws it OOP then enforce the rule and award some bases. Tough luck. Bad throw. Next time make a good throw and catch the ball.

DownTownTonyBrown,
Yes, I think the same penalty should be enforced for the gates on both sides. That's how I interpolated the award to one base.
Seems to me that the *long* two base award would encourage both teams to "forget" to close the gates just to put the opponents defense at that possible, though slight, disadvantage.

Lucky, or unlucky, for me, I think there is only one field here with pass gates and they are unused by the teams and have a tendancy to remain closed and outs the way.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by Tim C
There is no way you can have a sliding scale of punishment.

You can give direction at the plate conference but it does not change the rules.

Gate open for whatever reason, whichever team, under any circumstances equals the same punishment.

Scold them if you want . . . but you cannot change the rules.

T

T,
I certainly agree with one punishment regardless of who "forgot".
With few gates (maybe two gates, not two fields) U.P. here, we consider the openings to be ground rule holes in the fence and a one base award.
And not to worry. I'm not a scolder, I'm too old for that tripe. And heaven forbid I abuse any rule because of *ingnorance*.
mick

[Tim C]

I guess I have just never heard of a "hole in the fence" rule before.

Here fences are fences and balls over, under or through are considered one in the same.

Geographical I guess.

[NSump]

LDUB,
I don't think I am overly officious anymore. You see it wasn't me that asked them to close the gate.
I didn't cite a rule, but I guess if I had to cite one it would have to be 9.01C ( ) cuz 7.05 (g) doesn't feel good for the sitch given.
What should I do? Like DTTB implied DBT 2 bases? I can do that.
mick
[/B][/QUOTE]

WTF??

Doesn't FEEL GOOD?

Sh!t, I just wrote about how feeling good causes problems.

Two bases adn if you have that much of an issue with it, grow soem testicles and toss the manager. THAT will send a message.

[mick]

Originally posted by NSump


LDUB,
I don't think I am overly officious anymore. You see it wasn't me that asked them to close the gate.
I didn't cite a rule, but I guess if I had to cite one it would have to be 9.01C ( ) cuz 7.05 (g) doesn't feel good for the sitch given.
What should I do? Like DTTB implied DBT 2 bases? I can do that.
mick

WTF??

Doesn't FEEL GOOD?

Sh!t, I just wrote about how feeling good causes problems.

Two bases adn if you have that much of an issue with it, grow soem testicles and toss the manager. THAT will send a message. [/QUOTE]

NSump,
Sorry. [shrug]
By my use of the phrase "doesn't feel good", I mean the clarity, intent and spirit of the rule seems absent.

I like to "feel" or sense a sports rule. I am uncomfortable merely knowing the words.
mick