Good evening,

OBR interp please, HS level Babe Ruth Baseball (Note: Babe Ruth uses modified OBR, no modifications matter here):

Right-handed batter has whole body in batters box, gets hits on right elbow. He did not do much to get out of the way. I judged he got frozen on the pitch, sent him to 1B. Manager comes screming out with rule book in hand pointing to OBR 6.08, i.e. batter must try to get out of the way of a pitch (like the FED rule)

BRD is rather confusing on this, CR saying that 2005 FED point of emphasis on this sounds like it's leaning to NCAA interp., saying that if everything is inside the batter's box, it's the pitcher's fault (p. 66 situation #80).

When I went to pro school in the stone age we were taught that if it hits a batter and he is not trying to lean over the plate he goes to 1B. In all the years I've OBR level baseball I have never seen a batter kept at home for not avoiding a pitch. In all the years I have watched OBR on TV, I have never seen 6.08 called as in the rule book.

Am I incompetent now and missed a change in the interpretation of this rule? Does OBR now want things ruled like FED? Has anyone in OBR rules baseball kept a kid who got hit at home?

I am looking forward to my education. Thanks.

hope this helps
 

Look at 'Batter Avoid Bad Pitch' at bottom of page, or go here: http://www.officialforum.com/thread/20999

You already know that the call is rare to keep a batter in the box who was hit by a pitch. The only time I keep a batter in the box, FED or OBR, is if he clearly made a move to get hit by a pitch. I had a game last year where the same player moved his leg into a pitch on two consecutive at bats. The second time I said "I don't believe you did that again". He stayed in the box both times. His coach put up a mild argument both times.

Side note - I don't think anybody wants to intentionally get hit on a bone (ie elbow).

I view staying in the box and taking a pitch a safety issue. I don't want kids learning that they can take getting hit by pitches as an acceptable and normal means to get to 1B. The next thing you know, a kid thinks he's superman, takes a pitch and ends up in some serious pain, if not worse.

I expect at least a novel attempt to avoid the pitch. Whenever I, without a doubt, believe the batter intentionally took a pitch without moving (and they usually don't even move after being hit), the batter is awarded a ball/strike (depending on pitch location). If I beleive the batter was "frozen" or makes that novel attempt to avoid the pitch, they will get 1B.

Since the pro's are being paid to play, let them make the decision on whether to get hit or not. I don't necessarily agree with NCAA allowing it (safety issue again), but these guys are adults, have some level of skill and should be able to make reasonable decisions... or at least be accountable for them.

First off, coach is gone for bringing that rule book on the field. Secondly, I have kept them in the box after getting hit if I judged they made no attempt to move or they moved but into the pitch. Bottom line, this is umpire judgement, if you judged a legitimate HBP then send him to 1st.

It is rare, but not unheard of, even at the MLB level.

Yes, I know
 

I understand as well as you that letting an coach with a rule book on the field is pulling the pin on a hand grenade and giving it to him. However, in this case he had it with him when he came out. He obviously was waiting for a call on the rule so he could hit some umpire on the head with it.

I mishandled the situation in one or two other ways as well, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

When
 

Dave,

I have never seen it called on the MLB level. When is the last time you saw it?

It may have been a year or two. As I recall I saw an ESPN highlight where someone was kept in the box, with the speculation being the umpire was reacting to the fact that the batter was all armored up and had been crowding the plate pretty aggressively, and then didn't move a muscle when hit.

PULLEEEEZE tell me you EJed this manager!

I mean, I don't know what "screming" is.. but it sounds bad. Actually, if he took that rool book out and waved, pointed, presented, or showed it.. He's gone. Right?

And your call was right. Sometimes players get "frozen", can't react, get fooled.

So how do you tell the difference between a player who does not move a muscle because he is "frozen" or "fooled" and one who does not move intentionally?

Re: When
 

It happened just this year. It was talked about on the board afterwards. I wish I could remember the game, but I believe the player may have even moved into the pitcher.

No Mike I Didn't
 

I didn't eject him becuase he is a good friend of mine who I repect a lot as a gentleman, and because he really doesn't know how deal with umpires. Is that bad umpiring practice? Yes it is, but in this case it doesn't matter to me. There are times where friendship comes before proper mechanics. I was trying to educate a friend who needed to learn something.

Is that consistent? No. Should you do what I did last night? No. Would I do it with any other person I have ever met in baseball? No. I made an exception because I thought I could trust him to have a calm conversation about it.

I've had my share of ejections with coaches and managers being stupid and bringing a rulebook out. It was not worth losing a
friendship over it. The conversation will continue privately between the two of us.

I still have not had my question answered totally yet, so let me rephrase it: Does OBR intrepret this rule differently than FED? My understanding is that it does. If our good friend Mr. Childress is right and OBR is treated the same as FED in this case, than I have to change my understanding of the rule.

Thank you for your kind responses.



[Edited by jkumpire on Jul 4th, 2005 at 01:15 PM]

Well,
 

We know the NCAA rule states a batter need not attempt to avoid if the ball hits him and he is clearly in the batter's box.

One of the FED "projected" changes for next year . . . the committee will vote soon . . . will take the NFHS ruling into a mirror position with NCAA.

So, if you are one that wants to force a batter to avoid (even if he is in the batter's box) for safety reasons your argument is losing steam. FED is the most safety lead group of people that administer big boy ball.

John, I don't know how to tell you an answer about the specific call. I always award when a batter is hit and it occurs in the batter's box . . . I just mark it up to "freezing" . . .

You already understand the rest of the issues in your post that everyone is hitting you over the head over . . .

Oh well
 

Tee,

You know by now what kind of umpire I am, so you know what my feelings about the play are (he gets 1B, no doubt).

As to my handling of the coach, I made it clear why I did what I did, and think that explaination should satisfy those who disagree with my handling of it. If it was anyone else, he's dumped very, very quickly.

OK-please educate me. What is OBR? Thanks.

U of Sam
 

OBR is the abbrebriation of "Official Baseball Rules", the rules of Major League Baseball. It comes from the rule book which MLB publishes, they name it the Official Baseball Rules.

We used to call them "Pro rules" years ago, I wish that we went back to that title/usage. It makes things a lot easier for new people.

And just in case:

FED- National Federation High School Baseball Rules
NCAA- NCAA College rules
NAIA- NAIA (Small School College) Rules
LL- Little League Rules
BR (Babe Ruth), PONY, USSSA, Legion: All these organizations use OBR rules with some changes in rules/interpretations as appropriate to their level of Baseball. Some people on the board will ask a specific question dealing a specific rule code which may have a different answer than "straight" OBR

[Edited by jkumpire on Jul 4th, 2005 at 02:37 PM]

YEARS of experience watching THOUSANDS of batters, TENS OF THOUSANDS of pitches, HUNDREDS of batters getting hit and then making a good guess ;).

Thanks jkumpire.
Sam

hbp
 

I've seen it at the ML level, twice I want to say two years ago.
But have seen dozens of times when the thought crossed my mind that it should have been called and wasn't even considered.
I've never called it in 20yrs.(well, several times a game in SP but we all know that's not baseball)

If batter doesn't move or barely flinches, I give him the benefit, he really thought it was gonna miss him or it might break enough I better protect and hang in there.

I have called it because the pitch was a strike, slow breaking ball, at the 15 yr. old level, guy bent at the waste and threw the front arm over the plate.

For me to call it a batter must really dive into one.

On a safety note, lets take a pitch coming right in at the rib area, the batter tightens up and takes it rather than try and duck and perhaps take it on the chin or in the ear-hole. Though it would appear he didn't try and move I'll give him the benefit, perhaps it's just good survival instincts. On the other hand, call it once and see if those pitches don't strat coming in a little tighter and tighter.

To add to all of this. Craig Biggio didn't set the MLB record for HBP by accident. He learned to how to "roll" on a inside curve ball and take it on the back of the shoulder. I'm willing to bet that alot of PU know this too.