Little League Question

[His High Holiness]

All;

Given the controversy regarding Little League questions, I felt that I should do my part to help Little League umpires take over.

Seriously, I am writing an article for the paid part of the site and I need help with a Little League rule. Assume a huge Little League has over two hundred players in their 11-12 Majors division. My understanding is that they must divide the League in half and have two Majors divisions and two all-star teams. Is this correct? If so...

Question: Is it legal to stack one of the divisions with the best players in order to have a great all-star team? In other words, before the season, have the coaches select the 50-100 best players and put them all in one division.

Peter

[jicecone]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
All;

Given the controversy regarding Little League questions, I felt that I should do my part to help Little League umpires take over.

Seriously, I am writing an article for the paid part of the site and I need help with a Little League rule. Assume a huge Little League has over two hundred players in their 11-12 Majors division. My understanding is that they must divide the League in half and have two Majors divisions and two all-star teams. Is this correct? If so...

Question: Is it legal to stack one of the divisions with the best players in order to have a great all-star team? In other words, before the season, have the coaches select the 50-100 best players and put them all in one division.

Peter

I don't believe LL has changed that much but when I was involved, dividing the League as you suggest, got my team OUT, of the end of the year Tournament.

The LL I was involved in , had over 1500 kids in it and acted as one entity, until the District decided that our League would no longer be able to violate the rules that they allowed to be violated, for years. It was a conglomerate of "good ole boy" rules, that finally caught up with the "good ole boys."

At the time, and this may still be true, Leagues were allowed to be formed, based upon school district populations. I don't remember the numbers, (30,000, 50,000).
Anyway, over the years this Leagues Charter covered three school districts, that grew to over 100,000 kids collectively. As the years progressed and the Leagues grew in size, it became an unwritten rule that "you don't mess with my district, and I won't mess with yours."

Well that lasted up until the time that the smaller and newer Leagues kept loosing all the time.

So, as it turned out, everybody decided to get some religion, the year I had the dominating 14-15 yr old team. Oh well.

Back to your question. The League ended up having to divide into three separate and distinct charters, with three All-Star teams. Which in the long run was better because more kids got a chance to be involved in the end of the year Tournaments and the all important Williams Port Tournament.

The Constitution we redid, kept the same board, with more positions and reprsentation for each charter. More people got involved and this is still one of the larger Leagues around and run very nicely by the parents, thank you.

Guess who was instumental in re-writing the new Constitution and By-Laws. I lost the battle on the field but collectively we ended up with a better League.

Finally, "Is it legal to stack one of the divisions with the best players in order to have a great all-star team?"

Absolutely NOT.

[Rich Ives]

When you divide a league, you must establish the criteria for who is in which part.

Allowable:

1. Set separate geographical areas.

2. Birth date (day of month) - odd dates one side - even dates the other.

3. Last Name (Example A-J in one group, K-Z in the other)

4. Alternate Draft - All players in the draft pool. Group A picks, then Group B, then Group A, etc.


If possible, find a league in your area and ask the President for a copy of the Operating Manual. It has the rules in it.

[Dave Hensley]

Stacking the allstar teams is exactly what the Little League in Plano, Texas, did for years, with the tacit but unwritten approval of the district and state offices. Due to the constant complaints of other leagues in their district, the state finally started putting pressure on them to "do it right." Consequently, Plano left Little League and switched to USSSA tournament baseball.

Little League's rather strict rules on how local leagues must be structured is one of the reasons participation in Little League, both at the player and league level, has been going down in recent years.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
Stacking the allstar teams is exactly what the Little League in Plano, Texas, did for years, with the tacit but unwritten approval of the district and state offices. Due to the constant complaints of other leagues in their district, the state finally started putting pressure on them to "do it right." Consequently, Plano left Little League and switched to USSSA tournament baseball.

Little League's rather strict rules on how local leagues must be structured is one of the reasons participation in Little League, both at the player and league level, has been going down in recent years.

More properly stated though, "Little League's rather strict rules on how local leagues must be structured" and societies obsession with winning at all costs, "is one of the reasons participation in Little League, both at the player and league level, has been going down in recent years."

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jicecone

More properly stated though, "Little League's rather strict rules on how local leagues must be structured" and societies obsession with winning at all costs, "is one of the reasons participation in Little League, both at the player and league level, has been going down in recent years."

You should take out the word Societies and put in the word Williamsport

Most if not all LL Regionals and ultimately the LLWS can now be seen on ESPN. That's approx 2 weeks of coverage.
You can bet that Williamsport wants to put on a "good show"

If the various districts STRICTLY adhered to the LL wording, do you think ESPN would waste their time televising it.

LL All Stars around the country has been "stacked" for years now. In addition, many of the LL players we see on TV have played together for years from select leagues to LL.

We had the TOMS River dinasty

The team from Florida (I think it was Apoca or something like that)

Then as Dave eluded to the Texas Team

This year there will be "someone else"

In addition to be more competitive LL changed the cut-off birth date from April 1st to August 1st beginning next year, so in essence you will have 13 yr. olds playing on a 60 ft. diamond.

As long as the LLWS is on TV for all to view, there will be some leagues that try and manipulate the system.

To Peter Osborne:

If you are going to write an article about LL, make certain you include some verbiage about Williamsport.

It might be society but one look no further than LL Headquarters itself.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
All;

Given the controversy regarding Little League questions, I felt that I should do my part to help Little League umpires take over.

Seriously, I am writing an article for the paid part of the site and I need help with a Little League rule. Assume a huge Little League has over two hundred players in their 11-12 Majors division. My understanding is that they must divide the League in half and have two Majors divisions and two all-star teams. Is this correct? If so...

Question: Is it legal to stack one of the divisions with the best players in order to have a great all-star team? In other words, before the season, have the coaches select the 50-100 best players and put them all in one division.

Peter

since I was around little league, but I'm sure it hasn't changed too much.

Is it legal to stack teams - NO

Is it done? Obviously YES

That's why you will see the same teams making return trips to LLWS etc.,

But ought to be an interesting article.

Thanks
David

s ag

[jicecone]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by jicecone

More properly stated though, "Little League's rather strict rules on how local leagues must be structured" and societies obsession with winning at all costs, "is one of the reasons participation in Little League, both at the player and league level, has been going down in recent years."

You should take out the word Societies and put in the word Williamsport

Most if not all LL Regionals and ultimately the LLWS can now be seen on ESPN. That's approx 2 weeks of coverage.
You can bet that Williamsport wants to put on a "good show"

If the various districts STRICTLY adhered to the LL wording, do you think ESPN would waste their time televising it.

LL All Stars around the country has been "stacked" for years now. In addition, many of the LL players we see on TV have played together for years from select leagues to LL.

We had the TOMS River dinasty

The team from Florida (I think it was Apoca or something like that)

Then as Dave eluded to the Texas Team

This year there will be "someone else"

In addition to be more competitive LL changed the cut-off birth date from April 1st to August 1st beginning next year, so in essence you will have 13 yr. olds playing on a 60 ft. diamond.

As long as the LLWS is on TV for all to view, there will be some leagues that try and manipulate the system.

To Peter Osborne:

If you are going to write an article about LL, make certain you include some verbiage about Williamsport.

It might be society but one look no further than LL Headquarters itself.

Pete Booth

Pete, I was talking in general about the need for creating the "AllStar, Showcase, Classic, Exceptional" Leagues. But, from my experiences I CAN NOT, disagree with you one bit.

[Rich Ives]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PeteBooth




You should take out the word Societies and put in the word Williamsport

This implies it is only LL thet has a problem with "stacked" (or illegal) teams. I really don't believe this is true. Other organizations don't get the publicity.


Most if not all LL Regionals and ultimately the LLWS can now be seen on ESPN. That's approx 2 weeks of coverage.
You can bet that Williamsport wants to put on a "good show"

The cheating has been going on for much longer than the Regional/LLWS TV coverage. TV didn't cause it.

If the various districts STRICTLY adhered to the LL wording, do you think ESPN would waste their time televising it.

Most districts and teams DO stick to the rules.

LL All Stars around the country has been "stacked" for years now.

A few, not most or even many. Violators are tossed every year, it just doesn't make the news.


In addition, many of the LL players we see on TV have played together for years from select leagues to LL.

Playing select as individuals is not against the rules. Anyone can do it. Playing select as a team during the LL season will raise eyebrows and can lead to disqualification.

We had the TOMS River dynasty

Two years is a dynasty? Other leagues in the past have had repeat appearances too. If you look at the rosters, you will see they weren't the same kids for the most part.

The team from Florida (I think it was Apoca or something like that).

No one found that any rules were broken.

Then as Dave alluded to the Texas Team.

Not sure what they did. Probably manipulated charters.

This year there will be "someone else"

And more scrutiny

In addition to be more competitive LL changed the cut-off birth date from August 1st to April 1st beginning next year, so in essence you will have 13 yr. olds playing on a 60 ft. diamond.

I'm not so sure your "reason" is correct, but many of the kids at WIlliamsport have already turned 13 under the old age rules. The three month difference won't mean much - kids don't suddenly sprout at their 13th birthday.

As long as the LLWS is on TV for all to view, there will be some leagues that try and manipulate the system.

It isn't cause by TV, it's caused by a search for glory.

To Peter Osborne:

If you are going to write an article about LL, make certain you include some verbiage about Williamsport.

It might be society but one look no further than LL Headquarters itself.

And Peter, get info from a lot of sources. Limited sources will present a distorted view. Neither Pete B or I have a monopoly on the knowledge of what is really happening "out there".

[TBBlue]

It's hard to stack a league, because of the geographical boundries. Teams on the other hand can be stacked within a league. Redrafting every year is not required, even though most leagues do it to keep the regular season competitive. So it is possible to bring a team up from minors through the Williamsport tourney. Then you can just add one or two "parts" with the All-Star selections. In our area, LL doesn't stack their teams with one or two exceptions (my opinion only), out of 12 leagues. The other youth leagues I work, PONY, Dizzy Dean, all have stacked teams. Makes the regular season tedious because most games are run rules.

Edited to add...
LL rules only prohibit participation in other leagues while the player is still playing in the International Tournament. So an All Star team can participate all year in AAU or whatever. Only during the actual tournament must they not play for another team. That's one reason AAU tends to take July and August off.

[Edited by TBBlue on Jun 17th, 2005 at 02:54 PM]

[DG]

It would be easy to stack a league. Take a 192 player league, enough for 16 teams of 12 players each. Register 6 teams with LL, have tryouts and pick 72 players for these teams. Register 10 teams with some other league, say Cap Ripken and then fill these teams with players who did not get picked for the LL teams, "so everybody gets a chance to play", albeit the Cal league would be lesser quality, and much greater chance for 10 run games. The LL would then be a very competitive league with few blowouts and a good all star team.

[Rich Ives]

I really don't think that would make it past the first protest by other leagues in the district.