Removing the pitcher

[David Emerling]

Strict OBR ...

We all know that if a 2nd visit is made to the same pitcher in the same inning that the pitcher is required to be "removed."

The definition of "removed" is not specified within the rule book. Removed from the game? Removed from the pitching position?

Interpretations have specified that the meaning of "removed" means FROM THE GAME.

[However, traditionally, youth leagues that adopt OBR normally do not abide by this interpretation. The pitcher may remain in the game but may not return to the mound.]

My question is this ...

Is a "pitching change" considered a trip to the mound?

Example: The coach has already made a trip to the mound. Later, in the same inning, the coach decides to change pitchers. But he wants his current pitcher to remain in the game to play another position. And, he may want that pitcher to return to the mound later in the game. So - instead of requesting time to visit the mound, he only requests time to make a pitching change. The coach never walks out on the field.

Is this considered a "second visit", nonetheless? Or, can a coach circumvent the second visit provisions in this manner?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jun 13th, 2005 at 11:27 AM]

[ozzy6900]

If the coach goes out on the 1st visit and changes the pitcher, there is no visit charged. If, however, there is a visit on F1 already, then once the coach crosses the foul line, he has to pull the pitcher.

Now, if your game is STRICT OBR then guess what? F1 has to leave the game. True, most youth leagues circumvent this rule and rightly so. But every now and then, you get to do a game where they want to play STRICT OBR. That is when my plate meeting runs longer than the normal 30 seconds because I bring up all of hte STRICT OBR nuances - like this one. If both sides still agree to go with STRICT OBR, then play on!

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
If the coach goes out on the 1st visit and changes the pitcher, there is no visit charged. If, however, there is a visit on F1 already, then once the coach crosses the foul line, he has to pull the pitcher.

Now, if your game is STRICT OBR then guess what? F1 has to leave the game. True, most youth leagues circumvent this rule and rightly so. But every now and then, you get to do a game where they want to play STRICT OBR. That is when my plate meeting runs longer than the normal 30 seconds because I bring up all of hte STRICT OBR nuances - like this one. If both sides still agree to go with STRICT OBR, then play on!

I'm not sure that answered my question as per my example.

What are you saying about my example?

The coach goes out to visit the pitcher but makes no change. Later in that same inning, the coach requests time to change pitchers but does NOT visit the mound. He simply announces his intentions from the dugout. Can the removed pitcher return to the mound later in the game -or- does this count as "a trip", nonetheless?

That's my question.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David Emerling

The coach goes out to visit the pitcher but makes no change. Later in that same inning, the coach requests time to change pitchers but does NOT visit the mound. He simply announces his intentions from the dugout. Can the removed pitcher return to the mound later in the game -or- does this count as "a trip", nonetheless?

That's my question.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

It's a visit. Under "pure" OBR, the pitcher must be removed from the game.

[Tim C]

What you are really asking is: can a pitcher be changed without a conference being charged, right?

I picture the coach just hollering out onto the field: "Bobby, switch places with Jerry!"

And the pitcher and F6 just switch places.

Is this what you mean?

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Tim C
What you are really asking is: can a pitcher be changed without a conference being charged, right?

I picture the coach just hollering out onto the field: "Bobby, switch places with Jerry!"

And the pitcher and F6 just switch places.

Is this what you mean?

Yes! Exactly that!

If Bobby and Jerry switched places could the pitcher (with whom you already conferenced) return to the mound in that game?

David Emerling
Memphis, Tn

[Matthew F]

OBR 3.03

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Matthew F
OBR 3.03

No, OBR 3.03 does not answer my question.

It only makes it clear that a pitcher cannot play any position, other than pitcher, more than once in the same inning.

But that's not what I'm asking.

Scenario:
1. Manager visits the pitcher on the mound and keeps the pitcher in the game.
2. In the same inning, the manager requests time and, from the dugout, instructs the left fielder and pitcher to swap positions. He's making a pitching change.

Can the original pitcher ever return to the mound?

I'm starting think that the request for time to make a pitching change constitutes a visit because, otherwise, a team could use one pitcher to pitch to the all the right-handers in the lineup and another pitcher to pitch to all the left-handers. Imagine the 2nd baseman and pitcher continually switching positions depending on whether the batter was left or right-handed. They could do this without the manager coming to the mound.

Yet, what if the team never requests time to make this change and, further, forgoes the warm-up tosses? It would be kind of tough to charge them for a visit. No manager ... no request for time ... and no warm-ups.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Matthew F]

Originally posted by David Emerling

No, OBR 3.03 does not answer my question.

It only makes it clear that a pitcher cannot play any position, other than pitcher, more than once in the same inning.

But that's not what I'm asking.

Scenario:
1. Manager visits the pitcher on the mound and keeps the pitcher in the game.
2. In the same inning, the manager requests time and, from the dugout, instructs the left fielder and pitcher to swap positions. He's making a pitching change.

Can the original pitcher ever return to the mound? So long as the coach doesn't have a conversation with any of the players, I don't believe it would be an issue and the switch would be permitted (at least we are allowed to do this in NFHS, but FED doesn't always equal OBR).

I'm starting think that the request for time to make a pitching change constitutes a visit because, otherwise, a team could use one pitcher to pitch to the all the right-handers in the lineup and another pitcher to pitch to all the left-handers. Imagine the 2nd baseman and pitcher continually switching positions depending on whether the batter was left or right-handed. They could do this without the manager coming to the mound. Not according to 3.03 and your acknowledgement that "a pitcher cannot play any position, other than pitcher, more than once in the same inning". Meaning the pitcher can become a fielder then a pitcher again in the same inning, but may not become a fielder again in that same inning. Therefore, the flip-flop between pitcher and 2B cannot legally occur as you described it.

Yet, what if the team never requests time to make this change and, further, forgoes the warm-up tosses? It would be kind of tough to charge them for a visit. No manager ... no request for time ... and no warm-ups.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

You're right - the prohibition of playing a position other than pitcher more than once per inning has nothing to do with visits to the mound.

So, the switch between one player and another to pitch to lefties and righties wouldn't work. You could not circumvent any of the substitution rules to accomplish this.

David Emerling
Memphis, Tn

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David Emerling
Scenario:
1. Manager visits the pitcher on the mound and keeps the pitcher in the game.
2. In the same inning, the manager requests time and, from the dugout, instructs the left fielder and pitcher to swap positions. He's making a pitching change.

Can the original pitcher ever return to the mound?

I answered this three days ago -- it's a visit (so whatever "2nd visit" rules exist in your league apply.

From J/R:
[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)]
(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by David Emerling
You're right - the prohibition of playing a position other than pitcher more than once per inning has nothing to do with visits to the mound.

So, the switch between one player and another to pitch to lefties and righties wouldn't work. You could not circumvent any of the substitution rules to accomplish this.

David Emerling
Memphis, Tn

Thanks Bob,

I don't think you cited the reference with your first response.

Your first post came off sort of like "this is my opinion." Not that I don't respect your opinion (I suspected you were probably right - as usual), but I was hoping for a citation. I should have stated that in the original post. My fault.

But, in any case, you have now answered it quite clearly. Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David Emerling

I don't think you cited the reference with your first response.

I was hoping someone would have been interested enough and motivated enough to go look for it himself.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I was hoping someone would have been interested enough and motivated enough to go look for it himself.

Make sure you make that comment whenever ANYBODY asks ANYTHING that can be answered ANYWHERE within ANY of the MULTITUDE of materials available.

Pfft!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David Emerling

Make sure you make that comment whenever ANYBODY asks ANYTHING that can be answered ANYWHERE within ANY of the MULTITUDE of materials available.

Pfft!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

When I think it will help, I'll do so. Thanks for the suggestion.