The Official Forum - Closed balk thread

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Whatever dude?

You guys are going to believe what it is you want to believe, regardless of the facts, explanations, logic, the actual written word or otherwise...

So go make your personal attacks and live in denial... It's just sad.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally posted by jicecone

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaliix
jicecone,
Saying you have to see "the move" is a cop out. "The move" - disengaging the rubber by lifting the leg, "straight up, knee to chest almost" is clear to everyone. There is no debate that I am aware of about what the move is.

I don't believe anyone said that making "the move" was "the begining or simulation of a pitch".

What was said is that "the motion" is associated with a pitch (or step to a base).

Motion is the keyword in the rule. Is the motion the same no matter which leg you do it with? Answer - Yes. That is all that is required to make the move illegal.

Is there any other legitimate reason to bring the leg and knee up that high, except to pitch or throw to a base? Answer - No.

Is "the move" a backward off motion? Answer - No. "The move" is clearly up/off first without moving backward. The term "backward off" is written together in the rule. There are no joining words like "and" (backward and off) or "then" (backward then off).

Is there a reason to allow two separate and distinct movements when the two motions are written together without any joining words? Answer - No.

Mr. Evan's reasoning and interpretation support the arguments made above.

Before you start referring to people as stupid, I would look in the mirror first.

Quote:

Originally posted by jicecone

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Unless 3appleshigh closed the balk thread, I don't see the point. What's wrong with leaving it open?

Your right Rich,

And so we can continue here. After reading the entire thread the point Evans made was,

"Not only is the action illegal, but this is where you get to play mindreader and tell the manager that you believe the pitcher's intent was to deliberately deceive (this time illegally). You are covered in the rule book with the case notes."

Well, I see it as a HTBT to "BELIEVE" it move, otherwise, there was NO balk. ANYONE, that thinks picking the pivot foot up in the manner discussed, is the begining or simulation of a pitch, should'nt be playing the game to begin with, because they are just too dam stupid.

Why am I not allowed to stretch an interpretation? I just read almost 9 pages of the same.

I'm amused!!!

You really are hung up about this, and to boot you can claim the Jim Evans, "Metal Of Honor" for interpretating above and beyond the call of duty. Most, here have accepted
the fact that this could or could not be called, (or even should or should not be called) during a contest, except you.

I said I HTBT (had to be there) to believe it, because Mr Evans states that as being a requirement for calling a penalty, (Believing what the pitchers intent was).

Oh Great Interpretor, forgive me, I did speak in error though, I should have said, ANYONE, that thinks picking the pivot foot up in the manner discussed, is motion associated with a pitch, should'nt be playing the game to begin with, because they are just too dam stupid.

Now, as far as the rest of your opinions on backward, upward, downward, inward, outward or whatever, make sure to include it in your first documented authoratative book. Mabey, just mabey, I will start to believe it. But I doubt it.

Have a good day!

OBR 8.05 (b) The Set Position... From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot... (c) At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw. The pitcher shall step "ahead of the throw." A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

If a pitcher disengages the rubber by stepping slow, high and exaggerated in one motion, why is that illegal and deceptive when a LHP can step slow, high and exaggerated (when attempting a pickoff at 1B) and that is not considered illegal and deceptive?

I understand the interpretation that the high step is not considered "backward". Why isn't the LHP high step interpreted the same way when the rules specifically say "toward"? Heck, the rule even uses an adverb (directly) for clarification when no such consideration is given to clarify the backward step to disengage the mound?!?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so any thoughtful responses are welcome.

Short answer, basically the pitcher is allowed to lift his non-pivot foot to pitch or step and throw to a base (or fake a throw if it's second or third). Since bringing his leg up doesn't in and of itself doesn't commit him to do either, until he makes another movement that commits his to pitch or throw to a base he is legal. As long as he doesn't pause.

Quote:

Originally posted by Matthew F
OBR 8.05 (b) The Set Position... From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot... (c) At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw. The pitcher shall step "ahead of the throw." A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

If a pitcher disengages the rubber by stepping slow, high and exaggerated in one motion, why is that illegal and deceptive when a LHP can step slow, high and exaggerated (when attempting a pickoff at 1B) and that is not considered illegal and deceptive?

I understand the interpretation that the high step is not considered "backward". Why isn't the LHP high step interpreted the same way when the rules specifically say "toward"? Heck, the rule even uses an adverb (directly) for clarification when no such consideration is given to clarify the backward step to disengage the mound?!?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so any thoughtful responses are welcome.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaliix
Short answer, basically the pitcher is allowed to lift his non-pivot foot to pitch or step and throw to a base (or fake a throw if it's second or third). Since bringing his leg up doesn't in and of itself doesn't commit him to do either, until he makes another movement that commits his to pitch or throw to a base he is legal. As long as he doesn't pause.

But why isn't disecting and examining each movement not applied equally and fairly in each situation?

To be overly zealous of a pitcher's movement while disengaging the rubber (where he has only one legal move - disengage rubber) and call that "deceptive" and not to be equally critical of a LHP's move to first when his movements can be "more deceptive" (since he has two legal moves - pitch or throw to base), seems to be hypocritical.

Also, that still doesn't explain why a step "forward" is not treated (and enforced) the same as a step "backward"? If a high step is not considered a "step backward", how can it be considered a "step toward"? - seems counterintuitive.

I appreciate your patience Kaliix, but I still see a lot of grey area in balking this move and applying those same parameters to other legal moves a pitcher is allowed to perform.

To quote Mr. Evan's "Deception is acceptable as long as it is mechanically legal. (Otherwise, how would a pitcher ever pickoff a runner?)"

The point you make about a LH pickoff move to first is a fair one. It is directly addressed in the rules.

8.01(c)"At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw."

A high step is considered a step toward because it can be part of the pitching motion or part of the throw to a base. Just lifting the leg doesn't commit one to pitch or throw to a base. As the leg is coming up and before it reaches its apex, a pitcher could be throwing to first or pitching. The rules say that when he steps to a base, he has to step directly toward it. The interpretation of directly toward has been established as within 45 degrees of the base, gaining direction and distance.

The rules allow the LHP, on a pickoff to first, to be deceptive. As long as it's mechanically legal. Lifting the leg up high is mechanically legal, to pitch or throw to a base, just not to disengage the rubber. The pitch or throw to a base is covered in one part, the disengagement part in another.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matthew F

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaliix
Short answer, basically the pitcher is allowed to lift his non-pivot foot to pitch or step and throw to a base (or fake a throw if it's second or third). Since bringing his leg up doesn't in and of itself doesn't commit him to do either, until he makes another movement that commits his to pitch or throw to a base he is legal. As long as he doesn't pause.

But why isn't disecting and examining each movement not applied equally and fairly in each situation?

To be overly zealous of a pitcher's movement while disengaging the rubber (where he has only one legal move - disengage rubber) and call that "deceptive" and not to be equally critical of a LHP's move to first when his movements can be "more deceptive" (since he has two legal moves - pitch or throw to base), seems to be hypocritical.

Also, that still doesn't explain why a step "forward" is not treated (and enforced) the same as a step "backward"? If a high step is not considered a "step backward", how can it be considered a "step toward"? - seems counterintuitive.

I appreciate your patience Kaliix, but I still see a lot of grey area in balking this move and applying those same parameters to other legal moves a pitcher is allowed to perform.