Unless 3appleshigh closed the balk thread, I don't see the point. What's wrong with leaving it open?
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<i> Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser </i>
<b> Unless 3appleshigh closed the balk thread, I don't see the point. What's wrong with leaving it open? </b> Rich I agree and IMO and even though I am joining late, to me this type of thread falls under the category of umpire consistency and the real answer lies in the association one belongs to. In addition, we get on coaches sometimes but this type of thread could drive a coach crazy. Example: Assume a Double Header between the same 2 teams and to get my point across I will also assume that there will be one crew for the first game and another crew for the second game. You and I have the front end of the Double Dip, F1 does what he did as proposed in the original thread and both you and I balk him. Next game there is a different crew doing the game. F1 does the SAME EXACT thing only this time nothing is called. IMO that's the REAL issue with these types of threads where there doesn't seem to be a difinitive answer. My advice would be to bring these kinds of issues up at the interpretation meetings in one's association so that there can be some consistency from game to game. Pete Booth |
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And so we can continue here. After reading the entire thread the point Evans made was, "Not only is the action illegal, but this is where you get to play mindreader and tell the manager that you believe the pitcher's intent was to deliberately deceive (this time illegally). You are covered in the rule book with the case notes." Well, I see it as a HTBT to "BELIEVE" it move, otherwise, there was NO balk. ANYONE, that thinks picking the pivot foot up in the manner discussed, is the begining or simulation of a pitch, should'nt be playing the game to begin with, because they are just too dam stupid. Why am I not allowed to stretch an interpretation? I just read almost 9 pages of the same. I'm amused!!! |
I never quite got around to responding to the thread which is now "locked". When I first read it, my reaction was: "Kind of sounds like a balk, but I'm really not sure."
So, I tried it myself at home. What I learned is that in lifting my pivot foot "more than a little" prior to stepping it behind the rubber, my front shoulder (and entire body) <b>leaned</b> in the direction of home plate. It's quite noticeable. You cannot (well, <b>I</b> cannot) maintain your balance when doing this (i.e. lifting the pivot foot high) without making a noticeable body movement in the direction opposite your pivot foot. Try it yourself and see if you don't agree. To me, this is another valid reason (not that one is needed after the Jim Evans post in the locked thread) for calling a balk on this. I was surprised that nobody brought this up in the previous thread. JMO. Pete Booth is also correct that having umpires make opposite rulings under the identical set of circumstances does drive coaches crazy. JM |
i know i don't need too, but
I did not close the thread, and after being a flip flopper, I'm glad to see that I was both right and wrong, but kind of right. The second time I saw the move, was more to see if the runners would move on a play where they would all be running, the other was a definante and deliberate move todecieve the runner. Also the movement the second time took 1/3 the time frame, nor was the leg lifted quite as high. I now know a little better what to look for, and I hope I never have to see this again.
I must say I was worried about making the post and getting jumped on, and am glad to say I wasn't. I'm glad I sparked discussion and I'm glad to have gained some knowledge. |
jicecone,
Saying you have to see "the move" is a cop out. "The move" - disengaging the rubber by lifting the leg, "straight up, knee to chest almost" is clear to everyone. There is no debate that I am aware of about what the move is. I don't believe anyone said that making "the move" was "the begining or simulation of a pitch". What was said is that "the motion" is associated with a pitch (or step to a base). Motion is the keyword in the rule. Is the motion the same no matter which leg you do it with? Answer - Yes. That is all that is required to make the move illegal. Is there any other legitimate reason to bring the leg and knee up that high, except to pitch or throw to a base? Answer - No. Is "the move" a backward off motion? Answer - No. "The move" is clearly up/off first without moving backward. The term "backward off" is written together in the rule. There are no joining words like "and" (backward and off) or "then" (backward then off). Is there a reason to allow two separate and distinct movements when the two motions are written together without any joining words? Answer - No. Mr. Evan's reasoning and interpretation support the arguments made above. Before you start referring to people as stupid, I would look in the mirror first. Quote:
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Re: i know i don't need too, but
I am glad you made the post and I am glad you learned from it. I learned from it too.
It also sounds like the second move was accomplished by keeping the knee below the waist. If that's the case, I agree with your decision to not balk it. For whatever that's worth... ;) Quote:
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the fact that this could or could not be called, (or even should or should not be called) during a contest, except you. I said I HTBT (had to be there) to believe it, because Mr Evans states that as being a requirement for calling a penalty, (Believing what the pitchers intent was). Oh Great Interpretor, forgive me, I did speak in error though, I should have said, ANYONE, that thinks picking the pivot foot up in the manner discussed, is motion associated with a pitch, should'nt be playing the game to begin with, because they are just too dam stupid. Now, as far as the rest of your opinions on backward, upward, downward, inward, outward or whatever, make sure to include it in your first documented authoratative book. Mabey, just mabey, I will start to believe it. But I doubt it. Have a good day! |
just curious
what is mabey? Maybe you can add it to the work describing up, down, in, out and all the rest.
I would like to say the original question included the judgement of intent so that would not have to be debated, I said that the only reason the pitcher did what he did was to decieve the runner. Now then give the entire situation described, and the now infamous Jim Evans response, We can all agree that in this situation, it should be called a balk. OK NOW?? |
Well,
I was hoping that Bob had closed the original thread simply because it was the most boring thread I had ever tried to read (note: tried, I gave up).
Maybe this one will be locked soon. |
I gotta chime in here
Original post said that F1 lifted pivot foot high in the air.
Lets look at this, if I am R1 and see this, which I should, as well as FBC. My *** is back to the bag, he is stepping off. OR balking IF the ump decides he is simulating a pitch.Hensley an company , IMHO , have decided to iterpret this as a simulated pitch, could very well be.That is judgement, very well good call, BUT, original post was looking at a simle/ slow pivot foot lift, he may go backwards, lets wait and see.2 things are gonna happen, #1...ump figures a legal disengagement, or he rules a simulation of pitch. IT IS ALL JUDGEMENT!!!!!! Slow, deliberate/ and obvious....nuttin err on the side of judgement.....yours:) |
lock it!!! pleeease! forduhluvvagawd, lock it!
:D |
1. There is nothing "infamous" about Jim Evans' response to the play in question.
2. The play in question included, as a given, that the pitcher had been judged to have performed the move in an effort to deceive the runner. |
Good night Chet,
Good Night David. |
Whatever dude?
You guys are going to believe what it is you want to believe, regardless of the facts, explanations, logic, the actual written word or otherwise... So go make your personal attacks and live in denial... It's just sad. :rolleyes: Quote:
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OBR 8.05 (b) The Set Position... From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot... (c) At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw. The pitcher shall step "ahead of the throw." A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.
If a pitcher disengages the rubber by stepping slow, high and exaggerated in one motion, why is that illegal and deceptive when a LHP can step slow, high and exaggerated (when attempting a pickoff at 1B) and that is not considered illegal and deceptive? I understand the interpretation that the high step is not considered "backward". Why isn't the LHP high step interpreted the same way when the rules specifically say "toward"? Heck, the rule even uses an adverb (directly) for clarification when no such consideration is given to clarify the backward step to disengage the mound?!? I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so any thoughtful responses are welcome. |
Short answer, basically the pitcher is allowed to lift his non-pivot foot to pitch or step and throw to a base (or fake a throw if it's second or third). Since bringing his leg up doesn't in and of itself doesn't commit him to do either, until he makes another movement that commits his to pitch or throw to a base he is legal. As long as he doesn't pause.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaliix
Short answer, basically the pitcher is allowed to lift his non-pivot foot to pitch or step and throw to a base (or fake a throw if it's second or third). Since bringing his leg up doesn't in and of itself doesn't commit him to do either, until he makes another movement that commits his to pitch or throw to a base he is legal. As long as he doesn't pause. But why isn't disecting and examining each movement not applied equally and fairly in each situation? To be overly zealous of a pitcher's movement while disengaging the rubber (where he has only one legal move - disengage rubber) and call that "deceptive" and not to be equally critical of a LHP's move to first when his movements can be "more deceptive" (since he has two legal moves - pitch or throw to base), seems to be hypocritical. Also, that still doesn't explain why a step "forward" is not treated (and enforced) the same as a step "backward"? If a high step is not considered a "step backward", how can it be considered a "step toward"? - seems counterintuitive. I appreciate your patience Kaliix, but I still see a lot of grey area in balking this move and applying those same parameters to other legal moves a pitcher is allowed to perform. |
To quote Mr. Evan's "Deception is acceptable as long as it is mechanically legal. (Otherwise, how would a pitcher ever pickoff a runner?)"
The point you make about a LH pickoff move to first is a fair one. It is directly addressed in the rules. 8.01(c)"At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw." A high step is considered a step toward because it can be part of the pitching motion or part of the throw to a base. Just lifting the leg doesn't commit one to pitch or throw to a base. As the leg is coming up and before it reaches its apex, a pitcher could be throwing to first or pitching. The rules say that when he steps to a base, he has to step directly toward it. The interpretation of directly toward has been established as within 45 degrees of the base, gaining direction and distance. The rules allow the LHP, on a pickoff to first, to be deceptive. As long as it's mechanically legal. Lifting the leg up high is mechanically legal, to pitch or throw to a base, just not to disengage the rubber. The pitch or throw to a base is covered in one part, the disengagement part in another. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Matthew F Quote:
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