Fair or Foul Pole

[carldog]

High, deep fly ball clearly over foul territory twists in the wind so that it travels just over the fence and strikes the 'foul pole' at a point that lies lower than the top of the fence.

Fair or Foul?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by carldog
High, deep fly ball clearly over foul territory twists in the wind so that it travels just over the fence and strikes the 'foul pole' at a point that lies lower than the top of the fence.

Fair or Foul?

Foul. Impossible, but foul.

[DG]

The ball in the Atlanta-Washington game appeared from all replays to strike the foul pole above the fence. A ball striking the foul pole should be fair, since it should be placed so that the only way to miss it is for the ball to be foul.

[DG]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Foul. Impossible, but foul.

How so Bob? A ball that strikes a foul pole should be fair, if placed properly.

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by DG
The ball in the Atlanta-Washington game appeared from all replays to strike the foul pole above the fence. A ball striking the foul pole should be fair, since it should be placed so that the only way to miss it is for the ball to be foul.

This play was originally correctly ruled fair by Jerry Layne. Robinson came out and argued, the umpires huddled, Layne reversed his decision. Cox failed to get ejected...amazingly enough. BTW, the foul pole at RFK is painted black the first foot or so over the fence. Also the foul pole lines up on the fair edge of the yellow line on the wall. It appears to be possible to miss the foul pole with a ball crossing the fence on the line.

Edit
Now that I think about it, Bobby may go ahead and get tossed at the plate meeting tomorrow. If he is carrying a video tape, you'll know what is going to happen.

[Edited by TBBlue on May 30th, 2005 at 09:07 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG

How so Bob? A ball that strikes a foul pole should be fair, if placed properly.

Bob may have been addressing the question as actually worded and not the play everyone else apparently saw. The oringal question has the ball leaving the field of play (travels over the the fence) while it is in foul territory and then striking a "foul" pole after leaving the field of play.

If the original question is in reference to the Atlanta/Nationals game, it is not a good representation of what happened.

[carldog]

The original question was not intended to be a representation of the Atlanta/ Brian Jordan play.

But that play sure stimulated some discussion ! So I modified the play for this board so that my question here might help me understand the principles involved.

I'm still thinkin' about it!

[Peruvian]

The stadium has several issues. One is the mound:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...mlb&id=2046295

#2 is that the foul pole does not sit on top of the fence as it does in all other parks. The chance that a ball could get between the pole and the fence should not happen.

#3 is that the Mets protested a game last week because the grounds crew failed to cover the field after it had rained for 30 minutes - BEFORE the game. I don't know if they won the protest or not.

RFK has some issues and the umpires shouldn't have all the blame on this one.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by carldog
The original question was not intended to be a representation of the Atlanta/ Brian Jordan play.

But that play sure stimulated some discussion ! So I modified the play for this board so that my question here might help me understand the principles involved.

I'm still thinkin' about it!

Then, I hope some others will discuss your question instead of the Atlanta situation.

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Foul. Impossible, but foul.

It's possible, but TWP. Just because a ball in flight is clearly over foul territory, doesn't make it foul. No fair/foul decision can be made until the ball touches something or someone past 1st or 3rd base. If it goes 50 feet foul in the air and gets blown back to hit the pole...guess what...Fair ball.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by carldog
High, deep fly ball clearly over foul territory twists in the wind so that it travels just over the fence and strikes the 'foul pole' at a point that lies lower than the top of the fence.

Fair or Foul?

Fair ball.

[akalsey]

No fair/foul decision can be made until the ball touches something or someone past 1st or 3rd base. If it goes 50 feet foul in the air and gets blown back to hit the pole...guess what...Fair ball. [/B]

OBR doesn't specifically cover this. The definition of a fair ball says that it's fair if passes out of the playing field while over fair territory, but there's no corollary for a foul ball. The definition of a fould bal doesn't specifically say what happens if a foul ball passes from the field in foul territory and doesn't return.

The foul pole should be mounted on the fence. Otherwise there's not much point in having a pole to begin with. If it's not, the field's ground rules should cover what happens to a ball that strikes the pole after leaving the field in foul territory. By common sense and interpolation, I'd say the ground rule should say that a ball striking the foul pole below the fence line should be ruled fair or foul relative to it's position when it left the field. So after leaving the field in foul territory it would be ruled a foul ball should it strike the pole below the fence. This is also going to be the easiest thing for an umpire to rule, since once the ball drops below the fence the umpire wouldn't likely see it even hit the pole and therefore would be ruling foul anyway since that's where it left the field.

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by akalsey

OBR doesn't specifically cover this. The definition of a fair ball says that it's fair if passes out of the playing field while over fair territory, but there's no corollary for a foul ball. The definition of a fould bal doesn't specifically say what happens if a foul ball passes from the field in foul territory and doesn't return.

The foul pole should be mounted on the fence. Otherwise there's not much point in having a pole to begin with. If it's not, the field's ground rules should cover what happens to a ball that strikes the pole after leaving the field in foul territory. By common sense and interpolation, I'd say the ground rule should say that a ball striking the foul pole below the fence line should be ruled fair or foul relative to it's position when it left the field. So after leaving the field in foul territory it would be ruled a foul ball should it strike the pole below the fence. This is also going to be the easiest thing for an umpire to rule, since once the ball drops below the fence the umpire wouldn't likely see it even hit the pole and therefore would be ruling foul anyway since that's where it left the field. [/B]

Whatever. From 150 to 300 feet away, depending who is calling this...if it is seen to hit the pole...fair ball....always.

[Edited by TBBlue on May 31st, 2005 at 02:04 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by TBBlue
Whatever. From 150 to 300 feet away, depending who is calling this...fair ball....always.

IMO, the pole below (and outside) the fence is the same as the back of the fence.

IMO, the back of the fence is the same as the ground outside the fence.

So, the play presented is the same as a ball that passes over the fence in foul territory, but then curves and hits the ground in "fair" territory -- I've got a foul ball.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Bob, I am not understanding your answer. Carldog, perhaps I'm not understanding the ball's flight; what are you asking?

If the foul pole is properly positioned at junction of the foul line and the outfield fence... a ball that hits that foul pole has got to be fair....

unless you are saying that the ball is out in foul territory, beyond the distance of the fence and is being blown back towards home plate (getting closer to HP) and then hits the back side of the foul pole...

okay that I can justify as a foul ball.

I need a better description.