After last night's game I'm considering subscribing to the frequent ejection theory of game management. The two teams (12YO OBR) were in first and second place, and a win by the first place team clinched the championship, so everyone was a little tense.

One coach knew exactly where the line was and leaned on it the whole game. After he asked me why a bounding ball down the third base line was called fair, I told him that it bounded over the bag. He said it didn't. I asked him if he was questioning a judgement call and he turned and headed back to the dugout and loudly (and sarcastically) proclaimed "Of course not. Yoru judgement is astute." Had I dumped him at taht point, I would have been seen as the agressor since he was walking away. Later as he passed me to give his batter some instruction between innings he stopped to very quietly tell me that it appears to him and his team that my judgement was tilted in favor of the other team. I told him that he wasn't to open his mouth the rest of the game.

The moment the final out was recorded, a different coach on the same team shouted "Thanks Blue for the worst umpired game we've had all year." I turned and dumped him. The coach who had been pushing it the whole game yelled "you can't do that, the game's over." So I tossed him too.

I feel like I let too much go early in the game because the individual offenses were relatively minor and because I was concerned with appearing to be the aggressor. The problem is that each of these small things built up and eventually caused problems.

I see coaches like little children. They like to see how much they can get away with and the more you give, the more they take.

In general I feel like I let too much slide. I don't want to become a complete harda** but I need to tighten up the game a little. Any suggestions for this? Would taking HHH's "hang 'em high" approach for a few games help out, or should I do something else?

I don't eject too often but I subscribe to quick ejections for comments that are personal, profane, or prolonged. When he said "it didn't" in the first case I would have replied "we disagree" and not leave him anything more to comment about. When he made the "tilted judgement" comment I would have asked him if he is questioning my integrity. I want him to say "yes" so I can dump him. After the game it has to be personal or profane, because there is no prolonged, because I'm gone.

You don't say much about other incidents but there must have been some for you to feel you let too much go early in the game. Begin early by giving hard stares at anyone who makes a smart crack. If it continues, at some point you have to feel like you have taken all you are going to, call time and let the coaching staff know you are not going to take any more. Get out your game notebook and write it down.

You must understand that a coaches of 12 year old teams playing for a league championship are going to be uptight. They are probably also playing to see who will be the all star coach, and often have a son playing. They are, by definition, uptight. But keep them on a leash - and call anything close a strike.

Did you take too much? Yep.

No need to ask him if he was attacking your integrity. He did and given the earlier issues, should have been gone then.

Garth, how do you eject someone who's walking away, making quiet barbs out of earshot of everyone else, and generally being a model citizen in public while jabbing daggers at you in private? I don't want to look like the agressor or like I'm tossing someone just for the heck of it.

I'm not saying it can't be done or that you shouldn't, but I'm looing for some concrete methods for doing it.

When he accused you of cheating, you said he was stopped and speaking quietly, but no matter. Even if he was walking away, toss his ignorant, classless but.

You don't want to look aggressive? Fine. You don't have to use the "big finger" toss.

"Excuse me, coach? You're done for today. You need to leave the field and facilities now."...all said in a calm manner and normal tone of voice. If he gets excited and turns on you, who is the agressor?

Don't make excuses to keep a coach who has decided he wants to leave the game. When you do, you just make matters worse for the next umpire.


[Edited by GarthB on May 28th, 2005 at 06:37 PM]

I would have asked him this question directly. "Are you questioning my integrity?" If his answer is yes, then I have no problem with an ejection. If he pauses and then apologizes, then he gets the message. I do not subscribe to the eject quick and often group. I think you should try to keep any HS and below level (head) coach in a game. I do not think it looks like you are the aggressor or not. I do think if things were going on for several innings, you need to do something early to stop it. Just like the coach approached you, you can approach the coach in passing as well. If the coach gets upset, walk away. If he follows you, then he just hung himself.

Also, youth coaches do not ever have a clue. They do not realize or have much knowledge what is acceptable. You have to draw the line in the sand and if they cross it that is their problem.

Peace

Why does it really matter how <b>quietly</b> he craps on you? :confused: And who are you worrying about when it comes to explaining why you dumped him? The crowd?

He crapped on you big time. He very directly questioned your integrity.

Twice.

You stood there and meekly took it.

Twice.

It's your choice. No one else's.

My question is why dump the coaches after the game was over. I understand that you still have field jurisdiction and that post-game, off the field penalties such as suspensions probably follow (and IMO, they deserved them). However, like MTD, Sr. says on the basketball board, get in, get out, get done. You were worried about feeling like a harda** to everyone, so what do you think tossing them after the game was over looked like. Unless it was just completely out of hand with the coaches, just get off the field. Then, you report the situation to your supervisor and/or league officials, and if they have any sense, they will suspend the coaches anyway.

Also, IMO, Garth's way of tossing the coach w/ the soft comment is perfect. Just look at him right back in the eye and w/ the same tone of voice throw him. Guaranteed he'll spaz, and then you don't look like the bad guy.

The ejection after the game came within 15 seconds of the final out. I called the out at second base from the area behind the mound (I was by myself so I had hustled out there) and had taken 4-5 steps toward the gate when he shouted across the field. Absolutely no way I'm going to let an adult teach kids that those actions were acceptable. So I tossed him. An after-the-fact suspension by league officials wasn't going to demonstrate to them that these guys were wrong. And yes, there's a mandatory one game suspension following an ejection and the coaches will likely see further penalties as well.

I'm worried about game management. Tensions are already high, tossing the coach who's behind by 6 runs for a reason that's apparent to only he and I would cause an uproar from the crowd and the bench and is only going to increase tensions further.

I like the idea of a quiet ejection. The coach is sticking it too me quietly so no one else can hear, so I send him packing in exactly the same way. That's the type of advice I needed. I already knew the coach should have been tossed earlier, I just didn't have the right method with which to do it.

Why treat a head coach above HS level differently?

Why are you trying to keep below HS coaches in the game? Coaches at the Rec legaue level are just the first dad on the team who came forward and said he if off work by 5:00. They know very little about how to conduct themselves on a baseball field, and therefore they don't know what not to do.

You wanted to know where you messed up? This is the place.

Never ever allow a coach to call you a "homer".

Basically you let him call you a cheat and you did nothing -so from that point on you got what you deserved. (no respect)

If its a practice game, the first game of the season, a game between the two worst teams, or a champsionship game a coach is NEVER allowed to tell me I'm cheating and get away with it. That is an automatic ejection.

You don't have to make a big deal out of it. Since he was walking by all you had to do was say, coach you're coming with me and escort him from the facility.

Some of the best ejections are the ones that no ones knows have happened.

Thanks
David

"Later as he passed me to give his batter some instruction between innings he stopped to very quietly tell me that it appears to him and his team that my judgement was tilted in favor of the other team."

That's an invite to the parking lot. That's an attack on your integrity. He accused you of cheating. "Who's your assistant coach, because you are no longer a participant in this game".

Bob

Oh, come on. Everyone knows what he meant.

Another thing you can do if he is walking away from you is, with you back to the crowd, tell him that he is history but just say it loud enough that only he can hear it. When he turns around to come back at you, then dump him for the crowd to see. Makes him look like the agressor, just what you were looking for. This probably won't work with a good experienced coach and you don't want to use unless it is truely deserved.

Many HS coaches and below are not as familiar with the protocol of what might get them ejected or not. It is not their full time job, like a college or pro coach has coaching their baseball team.

Peace

You should have run him at least twice. When he said you r judgment was tilted toward the other team, there's no other response possible but ejection. Once you didn't eject him, he knew he could get away with anything. What good does a post-game ejection do in this situation?

I don't try to keep anyone in a game. Either the coach behaves appropriately or he doesn't. It's no skin off my back if he gets run for being stupid and perhaps next time he will think twice for being an idiot.

I've run one manager/head coach in three years and this idiot managed to get ejected in both halves of a DH. By two different umpires.

I got rid of two assistant coaches this year. That was the most coach ejections in one season I have had in probably 8 years. It does not bother me either way. I just think we cannot be so rigged with youth coaches and use a philosophy that applies to pro ball and other high levels of ball. If you have to eject someone, get rid of them. After all this is all a personal decision.

Peace

they fuss about the call a bit, OK. When you hear a personal remark about your judgment, integrity, etc., they are gone. When it goes from "that call wasnt..." to "your judgement...or you..." thats a line. You take that and you are a pinata the rest of the game.

Sounds like the problem is that they only hired one umpire. Why?!?! If this is such an important game, why do they only have one umpire??

As everyone else has said, he would have been launched whenever he questioned my integrity. I only had two ejections this year (1 player, 1 coach) and the coach was launched for just that -- questioning my integrity.

A question not really about this thread.
 

Tanner,

Do they hire only one umpire where you live? They did not do that where I started umpiring. I almost never worked a game by myself when I started or when I would work lower level games. I just wanted to know if they are doing that in other parts of Illinois. They accept seemed to only assign one umpire to lower level games up here. I just wanted to know if that was the case in other parts of our state.

Peace

Jeff,

Nope, even down (dare I say) in Little League, they hire two umpires. H*ll even in minor they have two umpires. Now I understand that it might be difficult to get umpires to work 12 year old games during regular season, but this was a championship game. I'm not trying to knock on akalsey, I'm sure he did a fine job pulling double duties.

The only way you might see one umpire on the field (not counting if one doesn't show up) is if by some chance after the Varsity game they brought there JV team and forgot to tell the officials. Now, probably 95% of the time there isn't a problem, the officials are more than happy to stay and work maybe a 4 inning game, however sometimes they already have plans therefore can't work it. Thus, only one umpire works the game.

I'm in the same boat as you JRut, I've been luckly enough so far to not have to work anywhere they hire only 1 official or not have one show up. (Knock on wood)

<i> Originally posted by akalsey </i>

<b> The two teams (12YO OBR) were in first and second place, </b>

Here-in lies problem number 1. Generally speaking coaches at this level are out of control and no-one puts a stop to it.

You can bet that this coach did not display such antics for the FIRST time. He probably has been doing similar things throughout the year and the BOD or President of the League has done nothing about it.


<b> Later as he passed me to give his batter some instruction between innings he stopped to very quietly tell me that it appears to him and his team that my judgement was tilted in favor of the other team. </b>

Generally speaking I do not pay much attention to coaches comments UNLESS they make it personal. I give the coaches the respect they deserve and I expect the same in return.

It's one thing for a coach to say "Common Blue your killing us" and that's it versus a coach calling me a cheater.

Once he acused you of cheating he should have been Dumped in a heartbeat.

Pete Booth

Agreed. As I stated at the beginning of the thread, I know I should have dumped him. What I was struggling with was exactly how to do so. It's obvious that this coach has perfected the art of playing the umpire.

I've gotten many fantastic suggestions about how to dump someone who's acting in this manner. Thanks for all the help.

Hired? What's that? :) I was volunteering my time, as I do for much of the youth ball season. I don't need the money, and I think the kids need a good umpire.

I never said you needed the money/do it for the money but it is cool you are giving your time up for it!

Lets keep one more thing in perspective guys. I don't know how it is around your areas, but the LL umpires associations around this area usually carries 2-3 high school or higher level umpires (if that) and the rest are high school aged or just graduated high school kids. The coaches are used to walking over umpires. While they don't necessarily know the limits, they could be 5-6 games into a season before an umpire shows them what the limits are.

Unless it's for a charitable cause you shouldn't work for free. Home town discounts (I've done that)are OK. My view is this. I've spent money on clinics, books, equipment etc., etc. While I don't do this for a living my time has value as does yours and I should be compensated for my time. I'm all for giving back and I've seved as a board member for two baseball associations and as a Coach for over 10 years unpaid of course and I was happy to do it. One of the reasons you have trouble with Coaches is because your Umpires are (I'm assuming this is the case) unpaid volunteers. I respect the fact that you are giving back to the community but you should be paid for your time. Just my opinion.

I see nothing wrong with dumping that coach after the game... at least the first one. "Hey, you can't do that!" probably doesn't warrant an ejection on the 2nd coach, even if that was yet another straw on this guy's back. I think after the 1 ejection, all I'd have done to "Hey, you can't do that," would be to say, "Yet again, you are wrong coach," and walk away. If he keeps it up, toss him too.

But --- a big but ---- you set up this situation by letting HC get away with way too much.

On the topic of personal attacks, a few times this year I've had coaches say "you cost us that one, blue" or "thats three, blue"....i've had doubts about whether i should dump them, but i've decided against it because they've simmered down as the game goes on. i'm 18, and this is my first full summer working games. i'm trying not to have a reputation as a hothead, but these coaches need to learn they can't walk on me. what would you advise me to do in the situation i said with what the coaches said to me? am i right for saving them, or is it put up or shut up time for me to make this decision? thanks a lot for any help.

I have never understood why coaches feel that it is acceptable to treat an umpire with total disrespect on the ball field, when they would never treat that same adult in the same fashion off the ball field. What is it that makes some of these guys feel that it is ok to disrespect another adult?

I'm assuming this is "chirping from the dugout". Try this approach: I'm also assuming this is the Head Coach and that he is coaching third. Between innings go to a spot where he has to walk past you and have a conversation concerning this issue (make sure only you and he can hear what is said) and flat out tell him if he doesn't knock it off he'll watch the rest of the game from the parking lot. If you do this be prepared to follow through. If it's bench personnel take the same approach only tell him: Coach either you get your bench under control or I will. And you know what happens if I have to take control.

In my area the youth leagues are all non-profits. The kids are there learning baseball instead of sitting on the couch -- or worse. So volunteer my time (and money since I own all pro-level gear) to make sure that these kids get a good game. I view the youth leagues as a charity. It never even occured to me that they would be anything but a charitable cause.

You HTBT. The comment was from across the diamond, and was crowing about it. He was pointing out to the whole field that he'd just pulled one over on me. The tone and manner of the comment was an obvious attempt to show up the umpire. Although you're right, had it not been for his antics the whole game up to that point, I probably wouldn't have ejected for it.

Most of it comes from the dugout, some of it comes from the coaches boxes....I usually stand on the first base line between innings. If I stand on the third base side, I can talk to him before he gets out to the coach's box. Like someone mentioned in a post before, I'll talk to him quietly, and if/when he flips out he'll look like the moron.

Thanks :D

I have done what Gordon suggested many times and it works like gold. I had to do that in a big game this past week. I did not have another problem the rest of the game.

The bottom line is ejections are personal and why you make them are very personal. I know guys that eject people just for coming out of the dugout or off the bench to complain. If it works for you keep doing that. If it does not work for you, then change something.

Peace

If you show a coach that you won't be intimidated early, he won't give you too many problems.

Matt, you don't have to be a hothead to run somebody. There are limits to whats acceptable behavior. Usually a comment like "Coach, are you arguing balls and strikes?" or "Your not going to come out here and argue that judgement call are you coach?" can work wonders. Coaches eventually learn what they can and can't get away with. Once you bounce a coach once or twice, they start to be more docile with you.

A quick story, a couple of years ago, when I was working youth ball, my assignor asked me to do a FP softball game. I knew why he wanted me to do it, a coach was being a problem. In that season, I handed out roughly 6 or 7 ejs (2 in one game) through the little league and pony league schedule. The coach for this FP game had been beligerent, rude, and demeaning to both umpires that has worked his game so far. I got to the field, he come up, introduced himself to me, and when I told him my name, he got this strange look on his face, and went back to the dugout. I didn't hear a word from him the entire game. Maybe I called a really good game, but I think that my reputation for that league preceeded me.

A good rule of thumb : if after the game, you think to yourself, damn, I should have launched that guy, you probably should have.

Had to eject this week myself
 

I had a game that was a $#itkicking, top of 4 2 out team behind buy 10, close play at first, great job by the 1st baseman to catch the ball, I bang the runner, both runner and 1st base have a small comment nothing big. Partner calls me in to discuss something, and 3rd base coach is heading to 1st base dugout, from between 3rd base line and mound, he yells, I'd like to see that replay, I said, nope, he got'em coach. He has some other things to say expressing his displeasure, someone on the bench is yelling about the horrible call at 1st and the horrible strike zone, and on and on. As the 3rd base coach reaches the 1st base line I say OK That's Enough, he stops and walks to the dugout, The other guy is still yapping, I now turn to the dugout, and see asst bench coach yapping, I say, Do you not understand That's Enough? and turn back, it appears that he doesn't caus he wants to keep yapping, saying These guys are rediculous, ok boys you're getting no help today, there was no one on the bench but coaches and the comments were said to the players, loud enough for them all to here, I turn and chuck Mr asst.

He lollygags and has to be told to hurry up, no Head coach (3rd Base)comes out and calls me over and says to DOn't embarrass us! He is a teach and said it to me as though I was his grade nine hall monitor. I tod him they wanted to embarrass me and my partner they get what they deserve. He says well you definition of embarrass is different from mine. It amazes me that coachs don't think that yelling across the feild and gesturing at the umps, and impuning thier integrity is embarrassing them. But should you throw out a coach from 10 feet away and expect them to move in a semi hurried manner, you are embarrassing them. Unreal.

P.S. Looking back I'm not sure I should have said the "do you understand that's enough", I didn't mind another warning, but do you think the language I used was inappropriate??

Most umpires would have ran the assistant without a warning anyway. I don't think your wording was bad or "embarrasing".

[Edited by aevans410 on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 12:11 PM]

Ejection
 

Befoe you eject someone you should know youir situation, For example, the last idiot that came out to argue a judgement call I simply told him "Look, my wife ain't here and your wife ain't here to bit*h at us, do you want to go home so she can?" He turned & walked back to the dug out, never heard another word.

My experiance is that it is better to keep a coach in the dug out than run him out. Obviously some deserve it, but sometimes it's best to keep him there. He may be the only tool you have for keeping the game moving and civilized. Why create more issues?

This happened a few years ago. I heard a bench yapping about my partners strike zone, he wanted to run people and ask my opinion. I told they had a good point and to become consistant, get in the slot, keep your head up, see the pitch into the glove and slow down his timing. (BTW, he was calling strikes outside in the dirt). He did not take my advice and now I hear he is hell in blue doing little league. He sank to his level of ability.



[Edited by EMD on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 06:15 PM]

Re: Had to eject this week myself
 

I go to RCF after the inning is over. I can't imagine what your partner wanted to talk about that was so important to draw you both together near the complaining coaches.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

Hey Matt, we use youngsters as yourself in my association. I help with training and such, usually at the 12u level. Trust me as I teach to toss at first hint of personal attacks or attacks on integrity. Most of our youth coaches have been around for years and know the "kid behind the plate", they try to use past influences to sway the calls, and get real personal, I will not cater to that, dump em, big and bold I tell em.Nobody desrves to be walked on, in any part of life, so I have no prob tossing coaches, my JUCO level is a bit different, if it is 90 degrees and skippy wants to get tossed, I am gonna keep him in the heat with me, then just f### with him....let him suffer too:)

I read somewhere on this board about the 4 P's to ejecting a coach/player. Can someone outline these guidelines again? One of them I believe is Profanity, etc.

Thanks.

Personal
Profane
Persistant