2 calls

[bossman72]

My partner made these calls in the game we did the other day. I am inexperienced, so i'm not totally sure if he was right or not, so i agreed with him.


1) Batter hits a ball that bounces high right in the vacinity of home plate. Batter drops his bat like normal and runs to first base. The bat is rolling towards the pitcher's mound and contacts the bat in fair territory. The umpire called the BR out. When questioned by the coach, the umpire said "since the ball contacted a MOVING bat in fair territory, it's considered hitting the ball twice, thus called an out. had the bat been still and the ball contacted it, it would have been nothing, live ball."


2) New pitcher comes in to pitch the 4th and starts throwing warm ups. Defensive coach isn't sure if he is going to go over his innings limit, so he tells the pitcher and F5 to switch. My partner disallows this. He said that since the pitcher toed the rubber and threw warm up pitches that he is now required to pitch to at least one batter since he is now considered an unannounced substitute.


was my partner right in either of these?

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by bossman72
My partner made these calls in the game we did the other day. I am inexperienced, so i'm not totally sure if he was right or not, so i agreed with him.


1) Batter hits a ball that bounces high right in the vacinity of home plate. Batter drops his bat like normal and runs to first base. The bat is rolling towards the pitcher's mound and contacts the bat in fair territory. The umpire called the BR out. When questioned by the coach, the umpire said "since the ball contacted a MOVING bat in fair territory, it's considered hitting the ball twice, thus called an out. had the bat been still and the ball contacted it, it would have been nothing, live ball."

No, even though the bat was moving when it made contact with the ball, the ball still hit the bat. Your partner's call is when the batter is still holding the bat and makes contact a second time.

2) New pitcher comes in to pitch the 4th and starts throwing warm ups. Defensive coach isn't sure if he is going to go over his innings limit, so he tells the pitcher and F5 to switch. My partner disallows this. He said that since the pitcher toed the rubber and threw warm up pitches that he is now required to pitch to at least one batter since he is now considered an unannounced substitute.

Well, if you are dealing with FED or big boy ball, if the pitcher is in danger of violating any pitching restriction, then he can be removed. This must have been a LL game. They have some stupid rule that if a kid throws a pitch, he has to pitch. Then if he goes over his limit, the opposition protests and the kid has to ice his arm or something like that.

[Macaroo]

1) Ball is live and in play unless BR intentionally rolled his bat at the ball. The ruling about the bat hitting the ball twice refers to the batter still holding the bat and striking at the ball twice (as opposed to the ball bouncing up and hitting the bat again).

2) Technically this is correct that he must pitch to at least one batter (OBR). If I'm not mistaken, he may be "not considered a pitcher yet" if he did not throw to the actual catcher in catching position (like warming up with a sub or coach). Whether he was announced or unannounced has no bearing that I am aware of. The age of these players could influence if the umpire "saw" the warm-ups or not. It could easily be unnoticed if no one from the other team complains. Maybe I'm wrong, but sometimes common sense should prevail over displaying (technical) rules knowledge, especially with young kids.

[UmpJM]

bossman72,

I'm not sure where ozzy gets his material, but he really ought to find another source. He has misinformed you in both cases, and your partner's rulings were correct in both cases (assuming played under OBR - which is what the "big boys" who play MLB play under). He has apparently never actually seen a rulebook. Unfortunately, he has no hesitation in spreading his misconceptions - as if he were someone who knew what he was talking about.

In your first situation, since the bat was still moving and contacted a fair batted ball, the batter is properly called out.

Reference:

"6.05
A batter is out when_...(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. If the batter runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umpire's judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play; ..."

In your second situation, once the player takes his position on the pitcher's plate, he has become an "unannounced substitute" and must face at least one batter or retire the side before being removed as the pitcher (assuming he doesn't get incapacitated).

Reference:

"3.08
(a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when_ (1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher's plate;..."

and

"3.05
...(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire in chief's judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher. "

JM

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CoachJM
[B]bossman72,

I'm not sure where ozzy gets his material, but he really ought to find another source. He has misinformed you in both cases, and your partner's rulings were correct in both cases (assuming played under OBR - which is what the "big boys" who play MLB play under). He has apparently never actually seen a rulebook. Unfortunately, he has no hesitation in spreading his misconceptions - as if he were someone who knew what he was talking about.

In your first situation, since the bat was still moving and contacted a fair batted ball, the batter is properly called out.

Reference:

"6.05
A batter is out when_...(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. If the batter runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umpire's judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play; ..."

So tell me again why he should be called out???
If theres no intention there is no out.

[Rich Ives]

"This must have been a LL game. They have some stupid rule that if a kid throws a pitch, he has to pitch."

Unlike OBR in which he only has to take the mound.

[bossman72]

just to clarify:

1) The batters drop of the bat and subsequent hit of the ball was purely unintentional.

2) The thing about the maximum number of innings pitched is really irrelevant of what i'm trying to get at. My main question is that: once a substitute pitcher toes the rubber during warmups before the inning, is he now required to face one batter?

[UmpJM]

WGYWB,

This one is a little "tricky" because the way the rule is written is certainly confusing.

For bossman's situation (i.e. where the bat is still moving when it contacts the fair batted ball), you only need the first sentence of the rule:

"A batter is out when_(h)After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. ..."

But, that's not all the rule says. It also says if "...the ball rolls against the bat..." the batter is only out if the umpire deemed that the batter intended that it do so. What this means, is that if the bat is not moving when it and the fair batted ball come into contact, the batter is not out (absent intent).

The wording of the rule itself certainly doesn't make this "crystal clear".

The MLBUM commentary on the subject does.

"If the batter-runner drops the bat and the ball rolls against the stationary bat in fair territory and,
in the umpire's judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball
is alive and in play, the same as if it had not hit the bat."

So, in busman's situation, intent or no, the batter is properly called out under 6.05(h). As his partner correctly explained, had the bat been stationary at the time of contact, he would not have been out and the ball would have remained "in play".

Also, FWIW, I completely agree with Macaroo's statement that if there are pitcher inning limitations in the rules being played under, and forcing the substitute pitcher to comply with the 3.05(b) requirement would put him in violation of those limits, common sense should prevail and the pitching limits should "trump" the 3.05(b) requirement.

Bossman,

In response to 2) in your post immediately above:

Yes, once the pitcher "takes his place on the rubber" he is the pitcher. There really is no "before the inning" (except for the 1st half of the 1st inning); the next half inning begins as soon as the third out of the previous inning occurs. This may not always be obvious, because if there are "pending valid appeals", the apparent final out of the inning hasn't actually happened until the defense has left the field and lost it's right to make those appeals. Or, in a BOOT situation where the last batter of the previous half inning was "improper", until the first pitch of the new half inning.

Once the game starts, you're always in some inning, and substitutions always occur while the ball is "dead".

JM

(Edited to add response to Bossman's 2) )

[Edited by CoachJM on May 17th, 2005 at 11:25 PM]

[DG]

1) I would not call the batter out unless I judged the bat and ball contact to be intentional, or if it actually did prevent a fielder from fielding the ball for a clean play.

2) Technically, a new pitcher (ie a sub) who takes warmups should pitch to one batter, but one pitch would constitute an inning pitched for maximum innings rules. If coach realizes he can't and wants to change I would allow it so we don't forfeit a ball game. The youth rules I am most familiar with say a pitcher is not ALLOWED to pitch more than a number of innings. So, this supersedes the "must pitch to one batter" rule. If opposing coach wants to protest I will record the protest and still allow the change since I'm not supposed to ALLOW a pitcher to pitch beyond his innnings limit. Then the league can deal with the protest. I would also put the opposing coach in my little black **sh*le book.

I have never seen this happen in a HS game. The limit around here is 12 innings in 72 hours, and HS school coaches know when the pitcher has reached his limit, and there are not many who can go 12 innings in 72 hours.

[Dave Hensley]

I can practically hear the grinding and gnashing of teeth going on by the lurking umpires who are witnessing a couple of rats schooling umpires on the rules.

Personally, I just find it amusing.

[UmpJM]

DG,

(I can't even imagine what DH is referring to.)

While I completely agree with your comments in "2)", if I were the defensive manager, I would be inclined to protest your misapplication of 6.05(h) in failing to call the batter out in bossman's situation when his non-stationary bat came into contact with his fair batted ball. There is no intent required and it is by rule an out, whether or not the umpire "judges" that the contact "hindered" a fielder attempting to make a play. That's what the rules says, and that's what the rule means.

From the MLBUM:

"If after hitting or bunting a fair ball, the batter's bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory, the
batter is out and the ball is dead. (See Official Baseball Rule 6.05(h).)"

What's your thinking?

JM

[dddunn3d]

In the original:

The bat is rolling towards the pitcher's mound and contacts the bat in fair territory.

Now we know the bat didn't hit itself, and that one of these "bat"s should be "ball." But which one?

[Macaroo]

The rule says nothing about the bat being stationary or moving. It also doesn't specify the bat is still being held by the batter. But, it is my contention that the beginning of Rule 6.05(h) is talking about a bat IN THE HANDS OF THE BATTER. The NCAA version of the same rule ads this wording to it's explanation clarifying that the bat that is still in the batter's hand(s) and hits the ball a second time in fair territory causes the batter to be out. (in FED he is not out unless deliberate).

The released bat that touches a fair ball (again) is alive and in play unless, the throwing of the bat was to intentionally divert the ball, OR the thrown bat interferes with a defensive player attempting to make a play, whether this throw was intentional or not. The BRD shows that all codes now require intent to interfere when the ball hits the bat.

I am open to learning and getting the rules right. If I am wrong about the thrown moving bat (unintentionally) hitting the ball being live, can someone please back this up?

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I can practically hear the grinding and gnashing of teeth going on by the lurking umpires who are witnessing a couple of rats schooling umpires on the rules.

Personally, I just find it amusing.

Yeah, and one of them thinks that I need to find another source for my material!

You know what, there were 54 views and 0 replies when I posted. How many of you "coaches" just sat there scratching your a$$es until one of us REAL Umpires posted?

[Edited by ozzy6900 on May 18th, 2005 at 07:01 AM]

[mcrowder]

Someone move the replies to this thread to ETeamz where it belongs.

PS - ozzy, while I normally respect your opinion, you're way off on both sitches here. MLBUM clearly states that for intent to be an issue it has to be a stationary bat - otherwise you simply have an out. And your statement that this must be LL was ludicrous. OBR's rules about taking the mound are stricter than LL's - if you take the mound, YOU ARE A PITCHER, and must pitch to someone.

I do find one thing interesting in this - there is clearly conflict between 3.05b and pitching limit requirements. Personally, I'd say 3.05b takes precedence, as a manager who might have a pitching limit issue should KNOW this before a game starts - and not put such a pitcher on the mound at all.