In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

You can not put the ball in play after a dead ball without the pitcher having the ball, therefore you can not have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball. You can not balk when the ball is dead. If umpire rules otherwise in any of above this is correctable.

Why would offensive team argue that their runner was called out illegally?

Good call.
 

Rackster,
Yes.
8.05 Penalty (1) - " Straddling the pitcher's plate without the ball is to be interpreted as an intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

mick

In "official" Little League (9-12) you can't lead off so you are using some other rules. In all the codes I know of the pitcher must be on the rubber with the batter and catcher in position in order to make the ball live. If the umpire is fooled and incorrectly puts the ball in play, call time and cancel the play.

Re: Good call.
 

You can not balk a dead ball. You can not put it in play after a dead ball without the pitcher having the ball. You can not have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

This was discussed here earlier this year and I learned my lesson.

[Edited by DG on May 14th, 2005 at 10:13 PM]

Well,
 

I cannot make my point more firmly:

You cannot have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

DG, is correct.

There is simply no possible way, period.

Re: Well,
 

I credit Tee for my lesson learned, during earlier posts on this subject. I got my mind right, and when the subject came up during an association meeting I was a single voice on this subject, eventually vindicated by our rules interpreter. I hear there is an article in Referee about this although I have not seen it

Re: Re: Good call.
 

DG,
What do you mean "I can't" do those things?
3.12 makes the ball live. 5.02 makes the ball live.
Does 8.05 requires a live ball? Does 5.11 cancel 3.12, 5.02, 8.05? ...By what rule?

I can do those things (won't but can.).
Is there a Little League rule or even a weak implication to what you say I "can't do"? ;)
Thanks.
mick

Mick,
 

You lost me on this one.

Re: Mick,
 

Tee,
The "live ball" requirement for the balk is missing in LL rules.
Trying to sell anything about requiring a live ball for a balk to most anyone, from your partner to the local Board of Directors, would be pretty darn tough.
There are not enough knowlegable umpires, managers, coaches working the kids' league to force Little League baseball to bring their manuals, casebooks and rule books up to snuff.

If a uniformed umpire walked onto the field, he could sell a dead ball balk.
If a lesser-dressed umpire walked onto the field, he could not sell the live ball balk.

There's no written backup anywhere, ...I think.
mick

Mick,
 

I am sorry . . .

Nothin done on small diamond ball would ever amaze me.

Sorry guys,getting confused here....PU thought pitcher had ball and on pitching plate (shame on PU for being fooled?Obviously this is what causes the problem.)and called "Play".Isn't it now a live ball? Runner takes lead and is tagged out.Offensive team claims it is an illegal play,but PU lets call stand.That was his ruling,i'm saying if ball is made live,even mistakenly,its a balk.I understand what everyone is saying about "can't have a balk on a dead ball",but how should this situation be ruled.Does the PU just say "My mistake,runner is not out,pitcher take the ball and lets play!"?Is there a rule for a dead ball mistakenly being made live? Also this is a Junior League game governed by LL rules.Junior League has added rules above the normal LL rules...i.e. 7 innings,leading,running on missed 3rd strikes,balks..etc.The junior league is for players aged 13 & 14.

[Edited by Rackster on May 14th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

Re: Mick,
 

TEE,

Well, I think it's quite understandable, working with all those volunteer types.
Few coaches last more than 6 years, Umpires move up to different levels, Board members "outgrow" the need to serve.

Keep the rules simple and easy-to-(maybe)-read pretty much suits the purposes for putting a whole bunch of kids and parents on the field. ;)
mick

Yes, the umpire declaring the ball live presupposes that the pitcher is in possession of the ball, which is required by rule.

If the umpire isn't paying attention and doesn't notice that the pitcher doesn't have the ball, he should say "My bad" and should reset everyone. Because the ball doesn't become live until the pitcher WITH THE BALL is on the pitcher's plate.

The rule is the same in the pros, in college, in HS, and yes, in LL.

No, it's not a live ball. The rule requires the umpire make the ball live, but it can't become live unless the pitcher is holding it.

Re: Re: Mick,
 

I know very little about LL so I sent this post to some umpires I know who work LL to fairly high levels as well as upper level real baseball. Here's one response I got:

<i>"This is idiocy. The rule is the same. "</i>

Interesting.

Rackster,
It is confusing ... in Little League.
1. PU calling "Play!" Makes the ball live by 3.12 and 5.02.
2. 5.11 says PU was not supposed to call "Play!" without ball in pitcher's hand.
3. 8.05 does not require a live ball.

No rule allows the fact that the pitcher did not have to ball cancel the fact that the PU called "Play!"

If I got deceived by the players in that situation, I would do what TEE and DG told me to do, "Get the ball to the pitcher and let's play."

He did it wrong and there was no one to tell him it was wrong.
mick

Of course the rule's the same.
 

Garth,
Maybe the other guys you asked are gonna find the rule, before they say, "Just is!" :)
mick

Well,
 

Rich nailed it . . .

It doesn't matter even with the pure weak guys that work LL . . .

It still cannot be done.

I have no idea why LL umpires are so poor!

I don't get it.

I'll get outta here, Little League has NO value,

[Edited by Tim C on May 14th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

Re: Well,
 

I doubt that you mean that. ;)
Little League umpires are mass produced with minimal training by Little League umpires with possibly some little league training.
The new umpires often learn on-the-job with little supervision. After a 1 or 2 hour clinic they show up behind the plate and right into the frying pan. These umpires are guided by coaches, players and fans perhaps more than they are supervised by their local umpire Trainers.

Regardless of the quality of ball, LL feeds the upper levels of baseball with players and umpires, maybe a college coach, ... and fans.
It does that quite well.

LL talks about citizenship, teamwork, sportsmanship and fair play, all good values for children.

The rule books are imperfect and seem to be designed to get newbee type parents, players and umpires onto the field with minimum confusion.

They keep it simple. They play ball.
mick

Re: Well,
 

This is NOT a LL question. It is more fundamental than LL. It is baseball, all levels, all rules.

dead ball
 

What else are we supposed to allow during a dead ball?

502 also says While the ball is dead no actions (to long of a list to type) can be made except those that result from actions which occurred while the ball was alive.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

It is confusing ... in Little League. 1. PU calling "Play!" Makes the ball live by 3.12 and 5.02. 2. 5.11 says PU was not supposed to call "Play!" without ball in pitcher's hand. 3. 8.05 does not require a live ball. No rule allows the fact that the pitcher did not have to ball cancel the fact that the PU called "Play!"

The Little League version of rules 3.12, 5.02, and 5.11 are IDENTICAL to the OBR version. There is no textual or interpretational difference in Little League, with respect to these rules.

As for "8.05 does not require a live ball," hardly any of the playing rules in the entire rule book EXPLICITLY say they are only applicable during a live ball. But almost all of the playing rules ARE only applicable when the ball is live. 8.05 is among those, in both OBR and Little League.

At age 13 and above, the LL balk rule is identical to OBR’s.

At 12 and below, balks become illegal pitches. In addition to a difference in penalty assessed (ball added to count instead of runners awarded a base) there are a few other quirky differences; however, whether it is applicable when the ball is not live is NOT one of those differences. The Little League IP should only be called when the infraction occurs while the ball is live.

Re: Of course the rule's the same.
 

Mick:

Dave Hensley's post seemed to do just that, and politely.

Thank you all for participating in this thread.

I certainly agree that an umpire calling, "Play!", does not make the ball live and that a ball must be live to balk.

But, it remains that given the rules provided by Little League, young umpires are not well-armed due to the editors of Little League publishings and training.

Based upon the play the sitch umpire goofed.
Base upon the information available to participants in Little League, a balk would be understood by following the rules provided.

Thanks.
mick

OK,
 

Mick, do you agree that it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball under all rules codes?

Re: OK,
 

Yes, TEE.
Thanks.
mick

I researched the OBR and LL versions of each rule you cited, and they are identical, verbatim.

There are some LL rules for which your point is valid; the subject of this thread is, however, not one of them.

One final time on this thread.

13-, 16- or 20-yr.-old umpires do not have access to your information or resources. Their emphasis is on the paycheck and not the intricacies of Baseball's unwritten words. "Just is" is the rule provided in the discussion. and I can live with that as I have for many years. Why would you expect someone's kid as a brand new umpire know that stuff when it is not in the book, or to be as smart as you are by merely reading the rule book?

And, of course LL Baseball is based on OBR so they obviously should be the same or similar. The original play may not be properly determined base on the words of merely the Little League Baseball rule book. You must know more than the words in the book; you must know the "Just is", the common practice, the popular opinion.

It ain't in the book. Saying it's the same will not put it in the book.

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/deadhorse.gif

mick

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I researched the OBR and LL versions of each rule you cited, and they are identical, verbatim.

Dave, the OBR and LL version are very similar, and the meaning of the rules is identical, but the two versions are not verbatim. The LL version has been altered to remove gender-specific references. For example, 5.11 (OBR) is:
"... play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession..."
The 2005 LL version is:
"...play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes a position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in said pitcher's possesion..."

These differences are trivial for the discussion in this thread. But I wonder if you have a LL rulebook in which 5.11 is truly identical to the OBR? If so, what is its title?

"Dave, the OBR and LL version are very similar, and the meaning of the rules is identical, but the two versions are not verbatim. The LL version has been altered to remove gender-specific references. For example, 5.11 (OBR) is:
"... play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession..."
The 2005 LL version is:
"...play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes a position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in said pitcher's possesion..."

These differences are trivial for the discussion in this thread. But I wonder if you have a LL rulebook in which 5.11 is truly identical to the OBR? If so, what is its title"
========

This ties for the most wasteful post on the internet.

Mick Notes: <b>13-, 16- or 20-yr.-old umpires do not have access to your information or resources. </b>

Dave used the OBR and the LL rule book and found them identical. Again, I am not a Little League umpire, but it's difficult for me to understand that ANY LL umpire would not have access to those two books.

Before this thread, I was with Mick based on LL rule.

Had this sitch.

I'm PU, R3. HC calls time and brings infield together.
As they break I hear the HC say "don't get on the rubber".

Right there I know the ball cannot be put back into play until the pitcher has the ball and is on the rubber. NP

Well, the pitcher goes and stands right on the rubber with his hands together as if to start the windup. I now figure he has the ball and I may have just been assuming a play. I still have my hand up signalling the ball is still dead. F5 now comes up and tags R3 who begins his lead off.

I say the ball is still dead, get the ball to the pitcher.

The thing is, I was just about to put the ball into play, and if I did, I'm sure I would have balked him. Based on 8.05 i.

Now I know better, thanks!

My citations were from the 2005 Rules Instruction Manual, which contains the rules, as well as casebook comments and instructor comments. The RIM does include the gender-neutralizing modifications you mention; I simply didn't notice those minor differences when I was comparing the rules Mick had cited to the OBR versions.