Fed. Varsity game. R1, R2, first and second. B1 hits double. R1 & R2 score easily. Throw comes into catcher. Coaches insists that first runner misses home plate and wants catcher to go into dugout and tag the runner. (Why, because he is a experienced , knowledgeable varsity HS coach?)

Anyway, Catcher goes into dugout to tag runner. We have a dead ball carried into the dugout. What should the award be for the B1 that is now standing on second? 1 or 2 Bases? References would help.

To spark some discussion, I will say that a throw from the outfield into dead ball territory is 2 base award from time of throw. Where was runner at the time of the throw? Add 2 bases. I will cite 8-3-3c2 as a reference and see what everybody else goes for ( probably my jugular ). My logic ? ( an oxymoron if I ever used one ). It was a throw to the catcher from the outfield. The result was a ball in the dugout ( carried in by catcher who caught the throw ). Dead ball, 2 bases from time of throw.
OK folks, have at me.

Side note. Would I have called time before the walk to the dugout to prevent this from becoming a dead ball? Preventative officiating or taking a stupid coach off the hook? Another possibility on the play. Food for thought.

According to the baserunning award table, none.


Two bases for intentional catch and carry from time of pitch (runners only).

Anytime a fielder has possession of the ball, and leaves the field of play, it's one base. Treat this exactly as you would an outfielder who made a catch, took a couple of steps, and tumbled over a low outfield wall into dead ball territory.

But, MC
 

That award is from TOP, Would you still award a base to R2?

For doing something that stupid, I'd really like award it, but according to the book (unless I'm missing something) we can't.

Tony,

The officials reply to calling time was, "I would have also reviewed all the rules on this before the game, had I known something wierd like this was going to take place". He agreed, but that didn't change what happened.

He awarded one base as I would have also, however, we are trying to substantiate the call with a rule or case study.

Just to add fuel to this brush fire. And for the benefit of full disclosure, I probably would have awarded two bases, what if, once the ball is put back in play, the coach appeals that the first runner missed and umpire calls runner out. With two outs, no run(s) score, with one out, second runner scores. Right?

aevans410 and mcrowder,
could you give me the rule reference you are citing?
I am confused. I couldn't find any rule that coincided with your statements. I like the theory, but want to cite rules to support the theory. Please give me FED rule numbers.

jiceone. I wasn't criticizng your post or decisions. It was more thought provoking questions to see if it impacted what did or could happen. I don't know what I would have done " right away " other than confer with my partner to come up with a decision on what we would do as a result of the actions of the catcher. It's easy to make decisions now - after the fact.


How is it an easy game like baseball comes up with these not-so-easy-to-deal-with situations?

Anyway, I am with jiceone. I would like some FED references to support any statements made regarding these posts.

Thanks to all.

Herein lies the problem. There isn't one.

We're talking about carrying the ball into dead ball territory, which is 5-1-1i. This actually deals with a batted ball, but its the only reference to carrying a ball into DBT that I saw.

Its the closest thing to this particular play I could find.

aevans410,
I understand the dilema for finding a rule to cover this.
That is why I thought 8-3-32 might ( although it could be considered a reach to reality ) be a reference.
It says, in part " Each runner is awarded . . two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball . . . . goes into a stand for spectators, dugout or player's bench . . and it is not thrown by a pitcher from his plate . . " . Now I understand that is a stretch, but in our post, it was thrown by an outfielder to the catcher who ultimately carried it into the dugout ( dead ball territory ). Is this the rule to cover the situation? I sure don't know. But I'll take any help I can get on this one.
Bob Jenkins where are you ?
Help.

Tony,

It was never taken as criticisim however, I think everyone is begining to see the problem with supporting documentation, that I found. The closest thing I have found to date is in BRD pg 39 Sest. 41. "Note 58:BRD recommends: Treat a pitch the same as a throw". Its rules references somewhat confuse me though.

It's no more of a stretch than the intentional/unintentional catch and carry is. I think the difference were dealing with is player control.

In your situation, the ball goes out of play due to a lack of player control, in my situation, player control exists.

I'd be interested to hear Carl's, Tee's or Bob J's thoughts on this though.

original post said we have a DEAD ball carried into the dugout. A dead ball carried into DBT? If the ball was already dead, so what? You can throw an already- dead ball into the concession stand, and theres no penalty. I dont get this at all.

I would too.

Looking through the various rules, I cannot find this EXACT scenario supported in any way. However, we are charged with enacting "fairness" when possible. We can't make the awards based on TOT from the outfielder, as the catcher obtaining possession ended that "play".

I think in this sitch, we are forced to fall back on the God rule, and "make a ruling on a play not covered by the rulebook."

In other rulesets, a ball carried out of play is a 1-base award from the TODB (reference a player catching the ball and then going over a wall). Sans a rule in this particular rulebook, I would be tempted to go for consistency here, and award 1 base from when the catcher left the field of play.

I'm pretty sure J meant that the ball became dead once he carried it into the dugout. If the ball was already dead, all we have in FED is a dead ball appeal.

I knew sooner or later the lawyers would perform their technical review.

The ball was live until brought into the dugout, at which point the catcher choked it to death and it became dead just as he got there. Only kidding

In OBR, runners only get a base if the fielder falls. Stepping out of play doesn't count.

5.10(f) "... If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril."

Most of us don't have open dugouts (like MLB), and on most of our fields, the dugout is DBT. The rule you are quoting is meant to be applied to open dugouts.

Surely you're not suggesting that if, in MLB, an outfielder jumps the fence and lands among the fans, but keeps his feet, that he's not entered DBT...

Federation Rules.

It's not covered. So we can award:

1) 1-base by extending the "catch and carry", or

2) 2-bases by extending the "thrown out of play" or the "intentional catch and carry"

I'd vote for #1. While the carry was "intentional" it wasn't done to "trap" the runner (as is the intent of the intentional catch and carry). The "thrown out of play" 2-base award is designed to reflect that runners are (usually) advancing during the throw and the benefit of any doubt should be given to the runner that he would have reached the base to which he was advancing and then the next base on the overthrow, even if the ball had stayed on the field.

Of course, the best option would be to call time when and ask the coach what he wanted. Then, rule on the dead ball verbal appeal. ;)

Jicecone: I understand, but MC was applying an OBR interp in the absence of a Fed one. So I thought the OBR rule was relevant.

MC:

Perhaps not, but you do have an opening of some sort into the dugout into which a player might step while fielding a ball.

What if you're playing an OBR game where the fences don't extend all the way out? It entirely possible for an outfielder to step out of play just after making a catch. Are you going to award bases if that happens?

OBR does say "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field." The word "falls" is used twice and then an exception is given when a fielder who steps, but does not fall, into one of the DBTs.

If the fielder keeps his feet (jumps over a rail and lands on his feet), has he fallen into DBT? Does the exception for benches apply to other DBTs? Is there any casebook reference that covers this?

:D

I have definitely seen, in OBR (including MLB), an outfielder make a catch in play, have the batter rung out, and then have the outfielder stay on his feet, but enter DBT (or the stands). Runners ALWAYS get 1 base from when the outfielder entered DBT. The dugout's a bit different because of the falling/standing exception, and because it's a grey area between DBT and LBT in some parks.

How many outs?
 

Next question would be, when the ball is made live again, would you allow the appeal at home or would you consider the catcher leaving the field to tag the runner a play?

I would also like to think awarding R2 home for the stupidity of the coach is the right thing to do, but have to go with a one base award on the original sitch.

The coach may have been experienced but he was not very smart, because he could call time and make a dead ball appeal of a runner missing a base, and never sent his catcher into the dugout. Also, for a runner who missed home, but has entered the dugout, the catcher need not tag the runner, but just stand at home with the ball and annunce the appeal, and this could be a live ball appeal.

Normally on a catch and carry it is a one base award unless intentional (umpire judgement), and then two base award. This was not a catch and carry like you might normally see, but it was intentional. The catcher took a live ball into the dugout, intentionally. It was live before he went in the dugout and dead when he crossed the dugout line. I don't think we can tag a runner out when the ball is dead, but we can award bases. I think I would award 2 bases for intentionally carrying a live ball into dead ball territory.

Thats pretty much what we agreed upon at our meeting. one base , don't let it happen again.

Thank you everyone for your input.

jicecone,

Not so fast there! I fear that you and your colleagues came to the <b>wrong</b> conclusion at your meeting.

The proper award in the situation you described in the inital post of this thread is <b>2 bases</b> for any runners on base <b><i>at the point in time that the catcher carried the ball into dead ball territory</i></b>. That is, the BR, standing on 2B at that point in time (if I'm reading your description correctly) is awarded home.

By my read, only DG and, possibly Carbide Keyman (it's not clear from his response if he would award 2 bases from TOP, TOT, or Time that the ball became "out of play") have given you the correct answer to your question.

Let me try to illustrate by putting a "twist" in your inital siutation.

Let's imagine that everything happened as you described <b>up until</b> the point in time that the runner who may have missed home entered the dugout. Let's say he was "loitering" near the on-deck circle watching the play unfold and, seeing the batter arrive safely at 2B, starts walking back to the dugout. The imbecile coach instructs his catcher to throw the ball to the F5 (assuming said runner is returning to the 3B side dugout) so that he may tag the runner. The catcher attempts to comply with his coach's instruction, but, alas, the throw "gets away from him" in his excitement and sails over the dugout into dead ball territory.

What would your ruling be in terms of base awards? (Hint: The correct ruling would be two bases to any runners beyond the last base legally touched at the time the ball left the catcher's hand.)

In terms of the rules governing base awards, the situation you described is <b>no different</b>!

JM

Just noticed an exception in the Little League rule book. In LL, if a fielder enters DBT but does not fall, there is no award of bases. The book actually says that the fielder must fall down in order for there to be a base award.

And some people think Fed makes up rules for no reason.

Time is out play on!
 

I agree with Bob, time would be out and we would simply rule on the dead ball verbal appeal.

Since all of our coaches remain in the dugout, when the coach came out, I would have time at that point and go from there etc.,

Preventive officiating but it works. I guess I've learned to keep it simple.

Thanks
David

It most certainly is different.

5-1-3g states a ball becomes dead when a "thrown" or "pitched" ball leaves play. The ball in this situation is under player control.

There is no specific rule to cover this. Intentional catch and carry is the closest rule "by the book" that you can cite. With intentional catch and carry, even though the idea behind it is different, the player exhibits control when he commits the infraction. The problem lies that the penalty from intentional catch and carry is 2 bases from TOP. R2 was at bat at TOP.

You have to award a base (or bases) here though, I agree there.

[Edited by aevans410 on May 11th, 2005 at 08:37 AM]

JM, in your situation, where the ball was put into DBT more as a result of a throw than the catcher carring it voluntarily, I agree a 2 bases award would be more apprpriate. However, that was NOT the case.

Also, I don't believe that there is a correct or incorrect ruling on this because as Bob has already stated, "it is not covered". Had there been continuious action on the part of the defense to play on the runners then mabey I would also agree that 2 bases should have been awarded.

Also, it is customary in basesball, when a situation is arises for which no ruling is addressed, to look at the other codes for help. OBR and NCAA plays that are close to this, both deal with players carrying a throw or pitch into DBT. If they fall the ball is dead and all runners advance 1 base otherwise the ball "remains alive and in play", BRD 2005 Sect. 41 pg 39.

Again, correct or incorrect answers may not be possible for this situation however, the one that seems most likely to be correct is a one base award.

For the "if you would have used preventive umpiring techniques crowd", We know, we know, we know. But, we didn't, we didn't , we didn't.

Thanks again, for your inputs.

I think "intentional catch and carry" is a red-herring here. It was put in specifically to close a loop-hole in the FED rules.

Under FED rules, a runner cannot return to retouch a base left early on a fly ball when he is beyond the next base and the ball becomes dead.

So, intelligent F9, seeing R1 stealing on the pitch and passing second, catches the fly ball near the boundary line and intentionally steps out of play to "double up" R1. It's a lot safer than throwing the ball back to F3.

To stop this play, the FED put in the intentional catch-and-carry rule. And, because it was cheating, it needed to be a more severe penalty than the unintentional catch and carry (thus, the 2 bases instead of 1). And, since it's only on a fly ball , all runners would need to "tag up", so the award should be from TOP.

Of all the rules mentioned, I think this is the least likely to be used as a precedent.

Let me clarify Bob.

1. The catcher carried the ball intentionally to DBT, thus the intentional part. Thats why I made that statement.

2. My comment was directed at CoachJM's theory of awarding 2 bases as if the ball was thrown. I used intentional catch and carry to exhibit control on the part of the catcher instead of a ball randomly flying around.

I didn't know the origin of the intentional catch and carry rule, thats interesting (and makes perfect sense). Thanks for that info. Knowing that though, I now believe "unintentional" catch and carry is a more likely scenario. Thanks for clearing that up to me.

I agree with Bob here. The reason for the "intentional" part doesn't apply to this situation. Instead of just "intentional", read "intentionally, to gain an advantage".

Obviously, with no true rule in the books - either 1 base or 2 bases can be supported via other rule-sets and enforced via the God rule. I just believe 1 base is more appropriate here.

I agree with mccrowder and bob. This is not specifically covered in the rules. I would award 1 base in this situation. I dont think anybody would complain. If you award 2, that's stretching it and you would have a nice little hoop-la to deal with during or after the game.

You could possibly argue to give 2 bases on the intentional catch and carry, but i think this was unintentional because although he entered the dugout controlled, it was out of pure ignorance and stupidity. I dont think the catcher would have gone into the dugout if he knew that there was going to be a base award if he did.


JM- I don't believe your "twist" applies to this situation.

That is one smart right fielder!

Most RFers I see don't know where to throw the ball on a base hit with R1, let alone this sitch.

Call up the Yankee scouts and sign this guy up!

A player this smart could get easily a $100 million contract with the Yankees.