get it right

bellsjc · #1 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 11:16am

I was at my son's varsity game the other night. I had just finished doing a game and made it in time to catch the entire game. It is a real good game between two rival schools. 2-0 in the 5th inning my son's team is losing, they are the visiting team. They have men on 1st and 2nd with one out, and thier number 3 hitter up. Batter swings and fouls one off his foot. I mean he really fouled it off his foot. He immediately goes down in the box like he is shot! The ball bounces out between 1st and pitchers mound. Umpires call nothing. Pitcher pickes up the ball is looking arround, runners are just looking arround, everyone but the umpires know it is a foul ball. Well after about 10 seconds, he tosses the ball to the 1st baseman, the runners advance but 1st baseman touches 1st and the home plate umpire calls the batter out while he is still on the ground at home plate holding his foot in obvious pain. Offensive coach comes out, asks home plate ump for help, base up says "Not my call" home plate ump tells coach to go back in the dugout batter is out. My son's teem ends up losing 4-3. Now... even if the foul was not seen by either ump, the reaction of the batter had to tell them that he did indeed foul the pitch off his foot. The batter could not think and react that fast if he didn't foul that pitch off his foot. If I was doing this game, after a few seconds had gone by, having realized that the player could not have faked a foul that quickly, I would have gotten together with my partner and called it a foul ball. These two guys never even got together to discuss it. I have done games with both these guys in the past and will be working with them again in the future. How do you deal with such obvious ineptness not only as an observer but also when I have to work with them again? Am I wrong in my logic to actually process the information seen on the field and make the correct call 1 minute after the play, even if I actually didn't see the ball hit his foot?

DG · #2 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 11:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by bellsjc
I was at my son's varsity game the other night. I had just finished doing a game and made it in time to catch the entire game. It is a real good game between two rival schools. 2-0 in the 5th inning my son's team is losing, they are the visiting team. They have men on 1st and 2nd with one out, and thier number 3 hitter up. Batter swings and fouls one off his foot. I mean he really fouled it off his foot. He immediately goes down in the box like he is shot! The ball bounces out between 1st and pitchers mound. Umpires call nothing. Pitcher pickes up the ball is looking arround, runners are just looking arround, everyone but the umpires know it is a foul ball. Well after about 10 seconds, he tosses the ball to the 1st baseman, the runners advance but 1st baseman touches 1st and the home plate umpire calls the batter out while he is still on the ground at home plate holding his foot in obvious pain. Offensive coach comes out, asks home plate ump for help, base up says "Not my call" home plate ump tells coach to go back in the dugout batter is out. My son's teem ends up losing 4-3. Now... even if the foul was not seen by either ump, the reaction of the batter had to tell them that he did indeed foul the pitch off his foot. The batter could not think and react that fast if he didn't foul that pitch off his foot. If I was doing this game, after a few seconds had gone by, having realized that the player could not have faked a foul that quickly, I would have gotten together with my partner and called it a foul ball. These two guys never even got together to discuss it. I have done games with both these guys in the past and will be working with them again in the future. How do you deal with such obvious ineptness not only as an observer but also when I have to work with them again? Am I wrong in my logic to actually process the information seen on the field and make the correct call 1 minute after the play, even if I actually didn't see the ball hit his foot?

First of all, at every pre-game I go over this with my partner, "if you see one fouled off a batter in the box, and I don't kill call it you need to", so it is the BU's call if he saw it and it is hard to imagine he didn't unless he was not paying attention. If you go to your partner and he says he saw it but did not call it then definitely call it after the fact. If he says he thought it him but can't be sure that's close enough, if you alreay have doubts. If he says I don't think it hit him then you are on your own on that call. Odds are you will get minimal grief from the defensive coach if everybody is acting like they think it hit him. Plus nobody is going to know what was said during the conference with your partner. If the defensive coach complains just tell him we blew the call, now we are getting it right.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 11:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by bellsjc
Now... even if the foul was not seen by either ump, the reaction of the batter had to tell them that he did indeed foul the pitch off his foot. The batter could not think and react that fast if he didn't foul that pitch off his foot. If I was doing this game, after a few seconds had gone by, having realized that the player could not have faked a foul that quickly, I would have gotten together with my partner and called it a foul ball.

I have to disagree here. I have seen players purposely fake being hit when the ball did not even come close to them. You have to be careful if you use only the reaction of the players. That might go into your decision, but it is not the only factor. I had several plays last season where the ball did not even come close, but the batter would just stop trying to get a call for a foul ball on what was a checked swing or a bad swing.

I agree that the umpires should have at least talked. The BU should have said nothing. If a coach comes to me, I would only say, "I cannot offer help, he has to ask me." If my partner asks me and I am not sure, I would tell him what I saw and let him make the final decision.

This play would also be unlikely for me as well. I talk about this in my pregame whether I am the PU or the BU. If my partner does not call the ball dead, I can then assume they did not see anything or they did not have the ball hitting the batter.

Peace

bob jenkins · #4 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bellsjc
How do you deal with such obvious ineptness not only as an observer but also when I have to work with them again?

I remind myself that I might occasionally miss a call, too.

jicecone · #5 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 12:34pm

In 20 years, I have NEVER seen a player hobbling around or laying on the ground , faking, being hit by a foul ball. Im not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't believe to that extent. Kill the play, it freaking obvious what has happened.

I agree with DG, this is a pre-game dicussion. What a wimp attitude, "its not my call", well go home and let the officials that really want to umpire , do a good job.

Unbelievable. Missing a call is one thing, not taking responsibility for being there is different.

mcrowder · #6 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 12:43pm

What if BU did NOT see it hit his foot? That could be his reason for saying, "It's not my call". Where was BU? Working in C, or working inside? It's possible he was blocked by pitcher (especially if he wasn't exactly where he was supposed to be).

Partial fault goes to the baserunners here for not advancing. If you don't hear "FOUL!!!", you run. Period.

bellsjc · #7 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 12:56pm

Umpire was in C and should have seen the play. I am not saying I have never missed a call or screwed up a call. What I am saying is that it was obvious to EVERYONE that the kid was not faking being hurt by the foul. Even after he finally picked him self off the dirt, he could hardly walk to the dugout while the coach was asking what the call was. I remember being told at our classes that sometimes, when you really didn't get a clear look at something, many times the players will make the call for you. Especially when it involves getting hit with the baseball... it hurts, and they usually react to the pain.

orioles35 · #8 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 12:56pm

First of all, never put it past any player to fake anything. I had an incident where an inside pitch missed the batter, missed the catcher and hit me directly on the elbow. While I was writhing in pain at the backstop, one of the fans said "That hit you, didn't it batter?" The batter nodded...even though I was set up in the slot and saw it obviously didn't hit him. These kids were TWELVE.

Anyway, this might be semantics but when I'm BU and a coach wants me to overrule something like a check swing, my response isn't that "it's not my call", rather that it is the plate umpire's call first, then if he needs help he will ask me. BUT, in this situation just like the caught/not caught third strike the PU is in a position where he can easily be screened from a ball hitting a foot or whether or not the 3rd strike bounced or was caught clean.

As BU, when the pitch is on the way...where else are you looking, anyway? You have to watch for check swings, or something crazy such as where the ball might be hit. Sure, sometimes a foul off the foot happens so fast you can't exactly tell it hit the batter, but in this situation what's the harm in throwing your hands up, calling foul and allowing play to be reset? If it looks like a strike, call a strike. If it looks like a foul off the foot, call foul.

GarthB · #9 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 01:18pm

Umpire was in C and should have seen the play. I am not saying I have never missed a call or screwed up a call. What I am saying is that it was obvious to EVERYONE that the kid was not faking being hurt by the foul.

When you use terms such as EVERYONE, you are no longer looking at this as an objective official, you have crossed over into Fan/Parent-dom. That is isn't necessarily bad, but it is not objective.

Two facts of life: Umpires miss calls. Kids fake getting hit. Move on.

dddunn3d · #10 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 01:27pm

Did anyone think to look for shoe polish on the ball?....

GarthB · #11 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Did anyone think to look for shoe polish on the ball?....

I've got that bubblegum cartoon, too.

bellsjc · #12 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 01:39pm

Shoe polish!?! What 16 year old kid is gonna polish his baseball shoes?

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Did anyone think to look for shoe polish on the ball?....

That did happen in the 69 World Series. I think it was Tommy Agee that hit a ball off his foot and the umpires did not call anything. The Mets' Manager came out and showed that the ball had shoe polish on it. The umpires changed their original call.

I would also doubt seriously that shoe polish would be a factor with these multi-color shoes and color you would find any shoe polish on the shoes. The only one that probably shines their shoes at all is the umpires.

Peace

DG · #14 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 04:52pm

You could also make him take his shoe and sock off to see if he has a big red spot where the ball hit him. I'm kidding of course, just playing off the shoe polish idea.

FloridaBlue · #15 (**permalink**) Fri May 06, 2005, 09:32pm

Being a long time Mets fan, even during their heroic struggles of the '70s, I can answer the question about who got hit by the ball in that game.

It was Cleon Jones and it was a pitch that hit him. Gil Hodges was the manager and argued emphatically that the pitch hit his player. I believe that Cleon went on to score a run that inning and it led to the eventual win in that game.

Makes you think what the cost of a can of shoe polish can do for you.