How 'lenient' are you on this rule?

[largeone59]

A little background before we start: the teams involved in a game i was umpiring today were 2 of 5 that were kicked out of the county league for various reasons. These 5 teams were all from the community i'm from, so everybody knows eachother involved in the games. This happened a few weeks ago, so the new "league" didn't really have any pitching restrictions set up (like number of innings per week). It was just OBR rules with the typical modifications.

Now. Today. We go to extra innings. Home team pitcher has just pitched the first 7. He goes out to the mound and starts to warm up. The Home coach then asks me "hey, how many innings are they allowed per week?" I didn't know. In fact, nobody knew since the rule really hadn't been established yet. The home coach then has the pitcher and the SS switch positions. I go over and say "coach, you can't do that. Once a player throws a warm up pitch, he is required to pitch." Coach says, "but then i'll have to forfeit." Then i say "i don't know what to tell ya..." But after a brief conversation with the opposing coach, we decided to let the substitution happen since the rules weren't established.


My questions: Do you think i handled this right considering the circumstances?

More importantly: (when the rules are fully set in stone)- how loosely do you inforce the rule about when a pitcher goes and takes a warmup pitch before the inning starts, he is required to pitch as per 3.08 (a) (1)?

[Dave Davies]

Once a starter or a new pitcher has pitched to one batter (in most instances) he can be removed at any time.

Don't confuse this with a pitcher just warming up in a new inning.

Dave
****

[cbfoulds]

First thing I need to say is, thankfully, this doesn't come up for me very often: like nearly never. It is well understood in my area that any coach, who puts an umpire in the position of having to rule on how many innings some kid has pitched recently, is about to have an unpleasant experience.

I have had this issue come up twice.

Once, on a HS field, some "joker" came out and started to "warm up the catcher" before going to his fielding position. The other coach noticed [as did my (PU) partner] the first "warm-up pitch"; and the lead off batter got his walk from Funnyman, then Real F1 came back in from RF and there was a substitution on defense for Funnyman, who I did not see play for the balance of the season, and I did A LOT of this school's games.

The second time was a U10 game, and the facts were closer to yours. In this league, the umps don't keep the lineup, a task which is assigned to the official scorer in the pressbox. At the start of an inning, a kid is brought on to pitch. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but (1) he was not eligible to pitch, (2) under circumstances which, if he had pitched to a batter, would have made him an illegal substitute, and (3)- yep, he took several warm-ups before the "official scorer" [a teenager] was notified/took notice of the oopsie.

I am NOT ejecting a 9-year old 'cause his coach cannot keep his book straight. I told both coaches that we were gonna pretend that nobody saw this kid take warm up pitches, and we were going to get an eligible pitcher on the mound forthwith, and in future they were going to take greater care about substitution eligibility and such-like, OK? And we played on.

[Tim C]

Large:

Well I guess I am really dumb.

I have read your post three times and there seems to be a problem that no one has mentioned.

Now I have no ideas what rules you are playing under. I don't know little kid rules, I don't know local rules but there is a problem:

"We go to extra innings. Home team pitcher has just pitched the first 7. He goes out to the mound and starts to warm up. The Home coach then asks me "hey, how many innings are they allowed per week?" I didn't know. In fact, nobody knew since the rule really hadn't been established yet. The home coach then has the pitcher and the SS switch positions. I go over and say "coach, you can't do that. Once a player throws a warm up pitch, he is required to pitch.""

By reading this it appears that it is the starting pitcher that has started to take his warm ups.

If that is true, why would you think he has to pitch to a batter? Dave Davis asks the same question.

The sub was a totally legal pitcher.

While it is crummy that any group (BTW, TEXAS requires umpires to now how many innings a pitcher is allowed to pitch in the game -- as dumb of a ruling as I have eer heard) to to require a pitcher to know anything about previous games is beyond me.

[largeone59]

The ruling to make the starting pitcher (who pitched 7 inn, then took warm ups before the 8th, then coach wanted him to switch with the SS and have the SS pitch) i made was based on 3.08 (a) (1) in OBR.

"3.08
(a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when_ (1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher's plate;"


This same situation was also writtine in an RBS article i read on amateurumpire.com about advice on what to do between innings:

"One thing you particularly want to observe is the pitching mound. During the inning change, occasionally another fielder, say "Jimmy," the Senators' left fielder, is jogging past the mound and he will see the ball laying there where the other team's catcher tossed it when the last half inning ended. Jimmy has been wanting to pitch but the coach hasn't let him try yet. So just for fun, Jimmy picks up the ball, steps on the rubber and tells "Charlie," the catcher to catch one pitch for him. Charlie's got nothing to do since, "Elvis," the real pitcher, still hasn't come out onto the field. So Charlie squats behind home plate and Jimmy lets one fly. After Jimmy's "pitch," he turns and resumes his jog out to left field.

Jimmy has just legally become the Senators' next pitcher. Rule 3.08 (a) (1). Not only does Jimmy have to face at least one batter, but Elvis can no longer return to the position of pitcher in this game."


That's where i got the ruling from. But really, how loosely do you guys inforce this rule?

[GarthB]

3.08 (a)1 tells when an otherwise legal substitute is considered as taking his place in the game. Don't you see some difference here?

What is an RBS article? Some litte league publication?

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by largeone59
The ruling to make the starting pitcher (who pitched 7 inn, then took warm ups before the 8th, then coach wanted him to switch with the SS and have the SS pitch) i made was based on 3.08 (a) (1) in OBR.

"3.08
(a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when_ (1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher's plate;"


This same situation was also writtine in an RBS article i read on amateurumpire.com about advice on what to do between innings:

"One thing you particularly want to observe is the pitching mound. During the inning change, occasionally another fielder, say "Jimmy," the Senators' left fielder, is jogging past the mound and he will see the ball laying there where the other team's catcher tossed it when the last half inning ended. Jimmy has been wanting to pitch but the coach hasn't let him try yet. So just for fun, Jimmy picks up the ball, steps on the rubber and tells "Charlie," the catcher to catch one pitch for him. Charlie's got nothing to do since, "Elvis," the real pitcher, still hasn't come out onto the field. So Charlie squats behind home plate and Jimmy lets one fly. After Jimmy's "pitch," he turns and resumes his jog out to left field.

Jimmy has just legally become the Senators' next pitcher. Rule 3.08 (a) (1). Not only does Jimmy have to face at least one batter, but Elvis can no longer return to the position of pitcher in this game."


That's where i got the ruling from. But really, how loosely do you guys inforce this rule?

I'm sure someone will advise on "preventative umpiring" to help with your question. My question has to do with the rule, 3.08(a)(1). Further down, in 3.08(a)(3), there is a caveat, "...and play commences." I would think this would apply to each of the four situations in 3.08. Does a player become a substitute for the pitcher just because he threw a pitch to the catcher between innings when the ball wasn't even live?

[Tim C]

That rule is for a sub, big guy. You said this was the starting pitcher, meat.

Come on, take a deep breath.

The PITCHER can be replaced at ANY time since he had already retired a batter previously during the game.

Slow down and think this through.

You are barking at the wrong moon, champ.

[largeone59]

oh
oh
oh

crap

sorry, my bad. i see it now.... damn, i dont know what i was thinking.

[CraigD]

Originally posted by GarthB
What is an RBS article? Some litte league publication? [/B]

Garth,

I believe that would refer to an article authored by Richard B Siegel, which is available at http://www.amateurumpire.com/others/rs/rs01.htm .

[GarthB]

Originally posted by CraigD

Garth,

I believe that would refer to an article authored by Richard B Siegel, which is available at http://www.amateurumpire.com/others/rs/rs01.htm .
[/B]

I was pretty close.

[Tim C]

"I was pretty close."

No, you nailed it.

[fwump]

Garth and Tee you guys are always good for a chuckle. But alas RBS has disappeared. He generally posted quite well and I really miss the photo. Loved the panama hat. Where oh where is RBS?

Mike

[GarthB]

I haven't kept up with that board so I'm not really aware of the history of RBS or his postings but after reading the article Craig pointed us to I don't see that you'll be missing much. And you can always buy a Panama.

[Tim C]

Richard IS a very good source of rules and general umpire information.

I have met him, watched him work a couple of games and miss him dearly on another website.

He, much like Rich Fronheiser, works from Little League through some college and has an interesting perspective on all levels of baseball.

Actually the games I saw him work were at the Little League Girls World Series.