FED DH Question

[Tim C]

The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

Ill take a stab at it,

3.1.4 situation C: F4, for whom the dh is batting , pinch hits or pinch runs for the DH

Ruling the DH positon is eliminated for the remainder of the game, however the DH could re-enter as a player but not in the role of DH. If he does re-enter, he must re-enter in the same position in the gbatting order, replacing F4.

I have always thought that once the player that was being DH for hit, the DH was done. Unless the Dh re-enters the game for said player.

So in your stich i think they got it right.

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"

This one is kind of strange but I'll try.

Rule 3-1-4a I think covers that the defensive player or ANY previous defensive player for whom the DH batters bats, pinch hits or pinch runs etc.,

So I think that makes this play okay. Since George is no longer in the game, he can bat but the DH is terminated and he is locked into that batting position.

Thanks
David

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"

I am a tad confused on why this is a PBUA issue, since DH could not DH for F9 in OBR. So I will assume this is a FED question.

3-1-4a come close to covering this but not quite. Anderson replaced George in RF. George is out of the game, Thomas is still DH, but now for Anderson.

I don't see anything to cover this in FED, so maybe it's a rare case for 10-2-3g, and maybe why you posed the question. George, as the starter could re-enter, so why not re-enter for the DH?

Let me pose another question. If George is out of the game why couldn't he be substituted for anybody, including the DH, since he never had a batting position? It was being occupied by the DH. A DH and the player he is batting for are locked into the batting order, but when George is replaced by Anderson it is Anderson and Thomas who are now locked. George never had a batting position and now he is out of the game.

[David B]

Originally posted by DG

I am a tad confused on why this is a PBUA issue, since DH could not DH for F9 in OBR. So I will assume this is a FED question.

3-1-4a come close to covering this but not quite. Anderson replaced George in RF. George is out of the game, Thomas is still DH, but now for Anderson.

I don't see anything to cover this in FED, so maybe it's a rare case for 10-2-3g, and maybe why you posed the question. George, as the starter could re-enter, so why not re-enter for the DH?

Let me pose another question. If George is out of the game why couldn't he be substituted for anybody, including the DH, since he never had a batting position? It was being occupied by the DH. A DH and the player he is batting for are locked into the batting order, but when George is replaced by Anderson it is Anderson and Thomas who are now locked. George never had a batting position and now he is out of the game.

That is correct. George is a starter so once he is replaced he can reenter. He can reenter for anyone in the batting order since he never had a spot in the batting order to start with - only his #7 spot for whom the DH was batting.

But the way I'm reading this is since he's reentering for the DH, the DH is terminated.

But a very good point about George that many guys I think forget about.

Thanks
David

[fwump]

The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NFHS 2005 Rules, 3.1.4 states; A hitter may be(not mandatory) designated for any one starting player and all subsequent substitutes for that player in the game.

IMO since sub Anderson replaces George in RF, then DH Thomas in now the DH for Anderson, and George is out of the game but still is eligible to re-enter. George cannot be moved to DH. However if coach wants George to bat in pos 7 in the order he may re-enter in pos 7 but this will terminate the DH. I site 3.1.4a; which states the the role of the Dh is terminated when: the defensive player, or any previous defensive player who the DH batted, subsequently bats, pinch hits,pinch runs for the DH.


Mike

[DG]

Originally posted by David B

That is correct. George is a starter so once he is replaced he can reenter. He can reenter for anyone in the batting order since he never had a spot in the batting order to start with - only his #7 spot for whom the DH was batting.

But the way I'm reading this is since he's reentering for the DH, the DH is terminated.

But a very good point about George that many guys I think forget about.

Thanks
David

If George reenters for the DH, the DH can't be terminated since the DH is batting for Anderson. Anderson is still in the game. If George can reenter for any other player, and assume their batting position, then why not reenter for the DH and become the DH?

[DG]

Originally posted by fwump
The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NFHS 2005 Rules, 3.1.4 states; A hitter may be(not mandatory) designated for any one starting player and all subsequent substitutes for that player in the game.

IMO since sub Anderson replaces George in RF, then DH Thomas in now the DH for Anderson, and George is out of the game but still is eligible to re-enter. George cannot be moved to DH. However if coach wants George to bat in pos 7 in the order he may re-enter in pos 7 but this will terminate the DH. I site 3.1.4a; which states the the role of the Dh is terminated when: the defensive player, or any previous defensive player who the DH batted, subsequently bats, pinch hits,pinch runs for the DH.


Mike

Good point. According to this rule the previous defensive player who bats for the DH, suspends the DH. Anderson must leave the game when George reenters to bat for the DH. But he could still reenter for some other position player and bat in their spot.

[fwump]

mmmmm,

Remember a couple of points about re-entry. 3.1.4 says that: "The player who was the designated hitter can re-enter as the designated hitter under the re-entry rule." Since George was never DH he cannot re-enter as DH.

Also; "A designated hitter and the player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order." Therefore if George re-enters he must re-enter in the same slot in the order.

So the 7 hole is up to bat. If coach wants George to hit he must pinch hit George for the DH. Thereafter the DH is terminated per 3.1.4a.


Mike

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
The following situation was sent to the PBUA today for clarification:

1- Able #25 (4)
2- Baker #33 (7)
3- Charles #41 (2)
4- David #51 (1)
5- Earl #27 (6)
6- Frank #3 (3)
7- George #21 (9)
8- Thomas #7 DH for George
9- Herman #14 (8)
10-Issac #40 (5)

In the top of the 4th inning sub Anderson goes into play RF in place of George.

Coach says that, "George will move to DH"

Umpire says, "Coach you can't change the Space Time Continueum -- this isn't an episode of Star Trek!"

Coach scratches head!

Please post your answer and all notes that support your decision. Can this legally happen or not?

"Play on, mates!"

Tim: I didn't read the other answers. This is pretty simple. When Anderson replaces George, Thomas is now DH'ing for Anderson. "A hitter may be...designated for any one starting player... and all subsequent substitutes for that player. Thomas, George, and Anderson all share the same batting spot. A designated hitter and the player for whom he is batting [or batted] are locked into the batting order.

George can't DH: No person for whom the DH has hit can be the DH. The DH is terminated for the remainder of the game when the defensive player...subsequently bats, pinch-hits, or pinch-runs for the designated hitter.

That's the end of the submitted problem.

But:

If the coach (later) wants George to reenter, that's legal. Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re-entered once. Anderson must leave and is ineligible to return. Thomas is now DH'ing once again for George.

[fwump]

Carl,

Is the following statement correct re this sitch? If at any time the coach wished George to re-enter as a hitter, then he must re-enter in position 7 and this will terminate the DH. George would then be F9 and Anderson would thereafter be an ineligible sub.

Mike

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by fwump
Carl,

Is the following statement correct re this sitch? If at any time the coach wished George to re-enter as a hitter, then he must re-enter in position 7 and this will terminate the DH. George would then be F9 and Anderson would thereafter be an ineligible sub.

Mike

George must hit in Position 7. But he can play anywhere! As I pointed out in my earlier post, Anderson, a non-starter, is dead when George re-enters, whether on offense or defense.

Remember, if George comes back on defense only, the DH would continue to hit for him.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 20th, 2005 at 10:57 AM]

[fwump]

Carl,

Thanks...me gets it.

Mike

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David B

That is correct. George is a starter so once he is replaced he can reenter. He can reenter for anyone in the batting order since he never had a spot in the batting order to start with - only his #7 spot for whom the DH was batting.

You are correct that George can re-enter, but incorrect that he can re-enter for anyone. Even though George didn't bat, he did have a spot in the order, and can only re-enter in that spot.

I agree with Carl's answer.

[GarthB]

I am a tad confused on why this is a PBUA issue, since DH could not DH for F9 in OBR. So I will assume this is a FED question.


I think you are confused. PBUA = Portland Baseball Umpires Association.