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Have a big game on Thursday with a coach I had a bad experience with last year. A little history, I've had him probably 5 times before our encounter last year and he was very respectful. Last year during the varsity game I had a banger at third. I'm in C, ball beat runner, 3B placed tag on upper part of ankle. I called runner out. He loses game 1-0. At the time of the play, he said nothing, but I did get the impression that he did not agree. Maybe he felt his kid was under the tag (I'm only guessing). Now, during the JV game the crowd gets upset when I do not allow BR to go to first when he gets hit by a pitch. I felt the kid did not make any effort to get out of the way. In fact, I saw the kid take his hand to the ball. Now in hindsight I probably should of given him the base since he was trying to "stiff arm" the ball for his own protection. Maybe I blew it, I think if I see it again I will award the base. The coach again did not say much. A few innings later, his pitcher balks. He did the jump move with runner at first, but did not throw. I balked it. Coach starts yelling that he stepped off. Then, he began yelling that the fans were not there to watch me. I stepped back and turned toward him and gave him the stare. He shut up.
My problem is that I resented his statement. It has been almost a year since it happened and it still bothers me. Like I said, he had never given me a problem before this day. My question is do I say anything about it when I see him on Thursday? Something to the effect that I'm sorry he felt I was trying to be the show, but I was enforcing the rules? Let me just say that I feel very confident when I umpire. I feel that my mechanics and positioning are as good as anybody in this area. Rule intrep is an ongoing battle, but I am constantly trying to improve (this is why I am always asking questions). But when this coach accused me of trying to be "the show" it hurt to the bone. Thoughts?? |
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almost a year?? goodness. why are you 'guessing' about why he 'might not agree?' Did you kick the call? Sounds like you did not make a gross miss...so why all the angst?
I would say you cant let him in your head like that. Youll kick one for sure, being all nervous and such, wondering what he'll say this time.... honestly, his comments seem mild compared to what I hear....perhaps you need to eject him after his next commentary (which it sounds like he's sure to make). That might clear the air ;) dont you DARE 'apologize' for what HE said last time! He will have you by the short hairs from that moment on. Dont take it so personally...he's 'working' you....dont let him! |
that's what I thought, an apology would only indicate that I was still thinking about it. You encounter problems all the time, but every once in awhile one will bother you more than others. Why this one? I don't know.
Thanks, I knew I could "open up" here and get advice. Being relaxed is critical to making instanteous decisions. I know I will be fine on Thursday. I have the confidence to deal with anything that could occur. |
scyguy,
I tossed 312 players, coaches, scorekeepers, announcers, etc. in my career.
If I worried as much as you I would have been unable to continue my career. It is time to move on . . . Real pressure is when you dump the head rat in the seventh inning of the first game of a double header when you have the dish in the second game. Honestly, I feel your concern and as Rich noted, thicken the skin and just go work the game. |
I am learning that. My skin thickens as we speak. Thanks
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way to handle it
I know Im just adding to the advice you have already gotten, but in my experience, the best way to handle a coach that you have had problems with is to act as if nothing ever happended. It's Ancient History....You should present yourself as if you dont even remember the situation.
Dont give a coach the satisfaction of knowing he got under your skin.... |
About that HBP: if his only movement/ effort in response to a ball coming at him was to "try to stiff arm the ball for his own protection" by taking his hand to the ball:
1: call time [dead ball, it hit him] 2: call the pitch [ball/strike] by it's location 3: tell him to stay right where he was [presuming it was not K3 of B4] 4: point the ball live and say "Play" If he tried to stiff-arm the ball, he did NOT try to avoid being hit, he merely chose how, where, and when to "take one for the team". No sale. For the rest, get over it, as others have suggested. War story: Few years ago I [PU] launched the head rat at one of our [HS level] military academies during a Christians vs. Lions game. He was beating the religion out of one of our church schools, 7-0 bottom of the 6th, and had the balls to come screaming out onto the infield dirt to argue about a foul call on the 3d base line that prevented a couple of his runners from scoring. In the league involved, there was no fixed additional consequence for a coach being ejected, but our contract requires that our board be consulted about how unsportsmanlike behavior is dealt with by schools. A suspension would have kept Coach from working at least one playoff game, so our board was asked if we minded if there was no suspension: I took the position, as the affected umpire and as a member of the board [at that time] that we should not care about suspensions or consequences unless the situation involved violence toward an umpire. We take care of business on the field for that game; what that means tomorrow or in the larger scheme of things is no more our concern than what the league standings are. OK, so he wasn't suspended. It is more than a year later that I am back at that school: during a rain delay, the same head coach strikes up a conversation about some rules snafu or other he had happen in a game earlier in the season [not our umps]. Everything is real cordial, no problems in the game so far. In the course of the chat, the Coach mentions how "one of your guys tossed me a couple years ago for arguing a foul call ... " [I'm playing the Tar Baby, an' not sayin' nothin' (so far)] He then proceeds to give me his version of the events, which are close enough to be recognisable; but, needless to say, make him look put-upon by the mean Blue. He then comments that "of course, the ejection was reversed on appeal and the guy was blackballed from our games ..."!!! To steal a line from Ron White: at that point I had the right to remain silent ..... but I lacked the ability [to do so]. Me (smiling): "Well, Coach, y'know that's not exactly what happened. See: you apparently don't remember, but I was the guy that ran you; and I was on our Board at the time. The EJ wasn't ever appealed, we just didn't insist that you sit out the next few games: and the only reason I haven't been back here since then, is I've been doing Varsity games at [names of large public schools], which are rated higher than our private schools. The fact that I'm here today is proof that we don't recognise 'blackballs'. Looks like the rain is slacking off, let's see if we can play some ball." The look on his face was priceless. I've also never had another moment's trouble from him in all the games I've done with his teams. [Edited by cbfoulds on Apr 12th, 2005 at 11:38 AM] |
Scyguy;
Many years ago, I had some of the same reactions that you describe. I was ready to quit officiating. I was a "keep 'em in the game" kind of umpire. Then I started ejecting the ba$tards with reckless abandon and I started feeling a whole lot better. (And they started leaving me alone.) Now that I do mostly NCAA level ball, everyone pretty much behaves anyway. Bottom line, do not go away from a game feeling like you should have ejected someone. It will eat at you for days or even years (like every time that you have do the SOBs game again.) It is far better to eject someone too quick than to not eject them when you should have. You will sleep better at night and be in the power position the next time you do their games. Psychologists have noted in numerous studies that workers who feel powerless, are less satisfied and less productive. You are feeling all the symptoms of loss of power over your work. There is nothing like a few ejections to restore it. Peter |
Scyguy
A hockey official once asked me just about the same question, when he knew that he would be officiating a contest that he had similar problems with the coach. My comments were as follows and hopefully just as applicable. First of all, if you don't feel comfortable doing the team again (and I understand taking the game home with you), you may want to speak to your assignor about switching the game. If not possible, the next best thing is to approach the game in this manner and mindset: 1. I am in control and have the final say. I don't have to put up with them but, they DO have to put up with me. 2. I will be as professional, if not more than the last game. 3. I will be courteous, approachable and show NO signs of remembering what happened in previous contests. 4. I will not entertain long discussions, nor stand around conducting long discussion.5. I will make my calls, firmly and decisive and penalize accordingly. Finally, my actions will show that I know the rules and that I am only there to enforce the rules. They will decide their own fate. GOOD LUCK |
I tossed the pitcher in the second inning of a double header last year for saying an unkind thing to me after a close call at 3B (I was BU).
At the pre-game meeting for 2nd game the coach says he was planning to use him again in the 2nd game but was concerned since I tossed him in the first game. I told him that game was over, I was over it and if his pitcher was then fine. He pitched a good game and did not say a word. I wouldn't mention anything to the coach about the first game of a DH, much less one that happened last year. |
1. Don't say anything
2. See #1. I'll bet this coach doesn't even remember this situation. Most coaches don't remember things like that, anyway, especially if it was last year. Why do we? Because we want to be perfect. Move on and have a good game! |
I too bet that this guy doesn't even remember the event - or at least that it runs together with the other 500 games he's done and said something similar to an umpire.
We've all heard that exact comment 50 times - it's just part of the standard book of umpire insults. Don't sweat it. Act as if nothing happened. If, on the off chance, HE brings it up, even to apologize, you say, "Coach, I do 150 games a year, and hear it all. I honestly don't remember the game you're referring to. I appreciate the apology, but truly, it's water under the bridge." (Of course, this speech works a little less if a given altercation is just the week before you see a guy again!) |
game went fine last night. However, I worked with a guy who left alot to be desired. He had the dish for the varsity since he was contracted first. Zone was consistent, but rotation was frightening. I should of known when in pre-game he says that "I do whether is easy". What kind of response is that?? I told him about critical rotations and that if he was not there, then I will not be making the call (rotation up to third, etc). Thankfully it was a pitchers duel. Six total hits, 2-1 final.
Now in the JV game, he spent as much time in and around the dugout BSing, than where he was supposed to be. Every half inning was delayed because of his constant smooshing. Yeah, he knew the coaches and yes most exchanges ended with laughter, but my goodness, aren't we there to do a job?? Now, 2nd inning, less than two outs, R1 and R2, base hit, I take R2 into the plate, throw is cut off and play occurs at third. Once I saw R2 touch home, I moved into position for an overthrow at third (DBT). I see the slide is directly into the 3B glove. Kid is out. But, my "partner" has absolutely no position, he comes flying across and calls kid safe. He had no idea. OC starts yelling for him to appeal to me. I'm thinking surely he will ignore the request. Well, you got it, here he comes toward me. Let me say that I did see play (tag was on the home side of third) and the kid was out. I tell "my partner" that he cannot appeal to me. He says that he did not see it and only wanted to get it right. I told him that I would not comment on the play. DC then starts yelling at me that he knows I saw it and should overrule. I stare at coach but do not reply. Ball back in play, life goes on. I told him after the game that he should of NEVER come to me. I'm sure in some of his chattter sessions with the coaches after this event, he made himself "look innocent" but so be it. If coaches cannot recognize an umpire that is professional and working hard vs a guy who is "your best friend", then I will work elsewhere. |
waitaminit
"I tell "my partner" that he cannot appeal to me."
************************ You NEVER let partners appeal to you? Or just on this rotation? Or was that just to punish this guy? Either way, it's a shame that the game had to suffer because you were upset. |
There's a number of reasons why you might go to your partner for help, and I'd make sure never again to work with a partner who refused to help out.
The guy has a bad angle, the coach asks him to ask you for some help, and although you had more information, you refused to provide it? Instead, how about tell him "Yes, I had a better angle on that play and I had him out." Then let him make up his mind what to do with that information. It sounds like instead of treating him like your partner, you treated him as the competing umpire on the field. |
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I'd be shocked if someone wanted "help" on this. If the ball beat the runner and the glove was in place, how could the BU miss this? We don't just call a runner safe just because we don't have the perfect view of runner sliding into the tag.... |
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I would've let him come to me and talk, but I likely wouldn't have been looking very hard at third base -- I have other responsibilities. |
Yep,
As you can see Rich this thread has progessed to the issue that many of us just don't understand.
The example that you comment on is an example of either terrible training or an umpire that doesn't care about training. When scyguy's partner comes "flying" we see that there is little understanding on training by that umpire. You and I don't get it. We take all opportunities at training seriously and we try to improve. Other umpires do not. I get short with "umpires" on webpages when they fail to follow basic mechanic rules or at least know when to hustle to make calls. I get short with umpires who would ask for "help" on a simple steal of a base call. Many of our brethern are stuck with dregs that call themselves "umpires". As Carl says, "Lah Me!" |
Tim,
As I've said before, I've had more frustration with partners that "make up" mechanics than I can count. I recently had a partner making calls on routine outfield catches (catches that were clearly in the V) while I was in B and C. It scared me to the point that I went in and talked with him between innings. We had two catch/no catch calls and luckily we had one umpire make one call but I was waiting for trouble. If someone who knows me is reading this post, they'll say "I remember Lawrence when he would go out from the middle of the infield or when he hustled all over the place to get in position". They would be correct. I did those things and more. It wasn't until about 1998 when I started seriously studying two-man mechanics. I've attended 2 clinics since then as well. I've also worked with better umpires who are none to shy to let me know where I needed to improve. I took their advice and ran with it (I certainly didn't brush it off and think they were nuts). I take a lot of pride in trying to get better. I also take pride in trying to learn new aspects of umpiring. I am far from perfect and wouldn't pretend to be a "Big Dog". What really chaps me is guys that don't want to learn or take the time and money to hone their skills. They look at umpiring as a check. As an example, we beg and plead each year (heck this year we fed everyone for free) to come to our Dixie Baseball meeting in March. We only had a handful of folks who took the time (it was only half a day on Saturday) to stay for the whole meeting. Guess who the guys are that get the big games? I could go on and on... Lawrence |
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R2 and throw from F5 pulls F3 off the bag. I'm in B and move to get a good angle and he's a good foot off the bag. Coach calls time and wants me to ask for help. I said coach, he's a foot off the bag and that's MY call. Later in second game I'm PU and ball from LH F1 bounces way in front of plate and bounces behind RH BR. I didn't see it hit him and ball bounces to screen, BR looks at me (he never moved) and said it hit me on the foot. I said "you're staying here I didn't see it hit you". (I don't think it did hit him anyway, or he would have started for 1st) Coach between innings walks up and says you could have at least asked your partner who was in B. I just smiled and said thanks for the suggestion coach. Too many guys are asking for help all the time. Get in position and make a good call. (Sigh) thanks David [Edited by David B on Apr 16th, 2005 at 07:48 PM] |
mbyron and akalsey,
get a clue!!!! your comments are meaningless in this situation. I would never leave my partner out to dry, but on the other hand I will do my job and expect him to do his. If I would have overruled his decision a knowledgeable coach would of had every right to eat my lunch. Wake up, get a clue. |
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I have all the clues about you that I need. |
let me see.... your comments vs Tim and Rich? I think Tim and Rich fully understood the situation. Of course my partner can appeal to me, if the situation dictates. If you think this was an appropreate time to appeal to your partner, then you don't have a clue about me. I am not saying I know it all becuase I am the first to admit that I don't. But surely you are not going to respond positively to a partner that appeals in this situation. Are you??? That would be dumb!
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Scyguy, SURELY we ARE going to tell deficient ump what we saw when he was out of position. Some of us (myself included) might even phrase it that way... "Well, what I saw when you were out of position was that the runner was tagged out... it's now your call to change or not change."
And just as surely, we are going to call the assignor and make sure he's aware of this guy's horrific mechanics. PLEASE don't penalize the players for the deficiencies of your partner, when you have the information to make things right. From other posts you've made here, you strike me as a competent official and a consummate professional. But these comments that you intentionally hung partner out to dry at the expense of the players rub me the wrong way. |
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MC I appreciate your comments, but I cannot reverse his call. This is not my place. He should NEVER had asked to begin with. I did my job. I respect your desire to get it right, but it would of been right if he would of done his job.
Lord Byron, I think you initially saw this as a way of piling on, then found that Rich and Tim agreed and you decided not to respond any further. This gives me a clue about you. |
I would not expect you to reverse his call. It's his call. But if he asked you what you saw (regardless of his reasons for doing so), you should tell him. Then he makes the call about whether to reverse it. And he takes the heat, and handles the ejections as well.
Let me change your situation a bit. You are working with the best umpire you've ever worked with. Always in position. Always hustles, and knows all the rules. This time, HE's your base umpire on the very same play. He makes the call, coach asks him to look for help, and for some reason, he DOES ask for what you saw. Do you tell him, or do you give him the same "Talk to the hand" that you gave our crappy ump from the original story? I suspect you would tell him what you saw, and let him decide how to handle. If so, then it seems to me you are letting your contempt for this sub-par umpire affect the game in a negative manner. Don't get me wrong --- this crappy umpire needs to undergo some serious retraining, and your assignor needs to be made aware of his issues. But don't let his crappiness penalize the kids in a sitch where you can make it right. |
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The text of this thread does not support your inferences in any way. Find something better to post. [Edited by mbyron on Apr 19th, 2005 at 09:39 PM] |
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As BU I've never ever went to PU for help on plays at second or third I've had Coaches ask me but, my answer to them is Coach this is my play all the way. I also would not want to "pass the buck". As PU I've never ever had my partner come to me for help on plays at second or third. Quite frankly if I had a partner (assuming I'm PU) that did this I'm not certain what I would do. In terms of penalzing the kids IMHO I don't feel that this is the case. Good calls and bad calls are part of the game the same as good plays, clutch hits, mental mistakes and butchered plays. |
Gordon, I agree with you regarding YOUR actions (and mine) as BU. I admit it's conceivable that there might eventually be an instance where I ask for help. It would likely have to be more drastic than the actual sitch posted here (I got hit by a ball, dirt in the eye, broke my leg pivoting, I don't know... something along those lines).
But if this did happen to me as PU, my attitude toward the competence or effort-level of my BU should not come into play. If he asks me what I saw, I tell him. Better or worse, we are partners, if only for this game. Leaving him out to dry, even if it's his fault he's blowing in the wind, is completely unprofessional. Edited to add: If I was straightlined through my own poor mechanics or bad judgement, I'd likely simply take the heat on my own without hauling partner into it (unless partner seemed to be trying to get my attention). [Edited by mcrowder on Apr 20th, 2005 at 11:20 AM] |
MC,
I'm not a bad guy that wanted to "hurt" my partner. Sure I made comments about him as a way to set the table. But I totally understand that the two of us are out there together. However, in this situation he chose to call runner safe. If he would of overruled the decision after talking with me then it does not take an Einstein to figure out how the conversation went. The opposing coach would have every right to express his opinion to me. This guy should of known better than to even ask for my help. Now he has put me in a position of trying to bail him out. Like I told him in our discussion, "if you called him safe, then you must of had a reason to do it". Safe was his call, safe is the runner. |
I ask again...
If this partner was the best guy you'd ever worked with, but for some reason on this play, he asked for your help... What do you do? |
When,
. . . did this site bgecome eTeamSleeze?
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MC,
I have to believe that if it was the best guy I had ever worked with, he would of never asked. I only have one partner in this area that has been to clinics with me, or clinics period. We were taught proper positioning and when we could seek help on appealable situations. Even if this guy was my best buddy, I still would of said the same thing. |
If that's true, then I take back my assertion that you were penalizing the players for the lackadaisical effort of your "partner".
I said elsewhere that I'd only ask for help in extreme situations (dirt in my eye, broke my leg pivoting, etc). Someone IM'd me, though a plausible scenario where I'd rule safe, but then ask for help if asked, and I agree. I'm in PERFECT position, but right at the exact moment I'm about to see the play, either a player I didn't see gets right in my line of sight, or runs into me. If I didn't see the out, I'm likely to call safe (especially if the development of the play made me "Feel" like it was going to be safe). It's possible that, due to development of the play, I call out. In either case, I didn't actually see the last split second of the play. If coach asks me to check with partner, and I KNOW that I didn't see everything, I can see myself asking partner for help. Now ... I'm your partner, this happens, and I ask for help - even telling you why I missed the end of the play. Do you help? |
Sorry, but no I don't help. If I did then both coaches would want every single call appealed until the game is over. You called him safe---then he is safe.
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But if my partner asks me for information, I give it to him. Then off the field I critique his mechanics, call my assignor, whatever is appropriate. Otherwise, you've left him out to dry, something you say you'd never do. Later you said: Quote:
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Even when you're right, if you take the low road, you get mud on you. I don't see Tim and Rich agreeing with you. Rich points out that he wouldn't have even been looking at the play, so he'd have had nothing to say. Tim's reponse is a little less clear. He "get's short" with umpires who appeal on simple calls, but he doesn't say that he tells them to stick it, that even though he saw the play he won't help, and that he makes this fact known to the dugouts as you apparently did (since the coach immediately starts complaining about your decision). Your reasoning that if you let your partner appeal to you then the coach is going to appeal on every play doesn't hold water. If your partner asks, you answer. If it becomes a problem with the coach coming out on every play, you can always remind your partner that he's allowed to tell the coaches "no" and you can start making sure that you never see any of the appealed plays. There's better ways to deal with this than cutting your partner off at the knees. You asked us for help and advice and when you didn't get the advice you were looking for you launched into name calling. Perhaps next time you ask for help instead of answering, we'll tell you that you should already know that and since you shouldn't need help, we refuse to provide it. |
OK,
Here's what I would say:
Just because I have a different angle than my partner does not mean what I saw was interpreted correctly by my mind. I have a partner that I expect to get "their" calls. If we are talking rules or an over the fence homerun "is it fair/foul" question that is one thing. But the other side is: I do not know ANY upper level umpire that would even offer an opinion on a simple steal of third if the PU "appeared" to miss the call. If I was the BU I would live with my call, if I was a a PU I would NOT expect even a question to be asked. I still beleive that sometimes you still "just have to umpire!" |
Everything you say in your post is right, Tim, and I agree.
But in this particular sitch, the obviously subpar umpire DID ask for help. I have no problem with any complaints regarding this umpire, and agree he needs to be reported to his assignor. But whether he was right or wrong, bad or good, clumsy or inadequate, he DID ask for help. And scyguy left him out to dry on principle. (And states that he would leave his best friend, the best umpire on the planet, or me out to dry in this sitch too.) That's where I have the problem. So, Tim - do you leave partner out to dry, or do you tell him what you see, and then either fix him or tell the assignor he needs fixing later? |
I apologized for the name calling and I will apologize to you individually. You obviously have a clue. I understand your point. I just don't want to tell the BU that I saw an out and he then "change his mind". I have no legs to stand on since it was never my call. I saw it, you would of saw it too because we have DBT responsibilities after our runner touched home. If Rich said he shouldn't of seen it, well that is his choice. I feel that picking up the ball after my touch was the right thing to do. I don't know what Rich would of been looking at. Rich has alot of experience, so I am sure he knows what he is doing.
Your acquisition of treating him like a competing umpire is unfounded. My resistance to "making the call" had nothing to do with competiton. I want to work with the best umpires that know what they are doing. That train hard at it. That devote weekends away from their families to get better. It was not my job to bail him out. Maybe he saw something I don't. It is his call, live or die by it. Remember, if it was an appealable situation I would of come running to his aid. Learn what you are doing or don't accept the assignments. |
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Only way I consider offering my opinion on this is if the call was a blatent screw up I'm talking kid slides in safe and then gets tagged on the head or shoulders... If it wasn't, I offer nothing different.
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exactly
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And the calling umpire is the one who tells everyone. Even though I am not looking, if for some strange reason my partner asks, I will get with him and conference (very briefly) The conversation is "what are you doing, that's your call and I didn't see anything unusual so let's play". then the calling official tells the coach, we've got an >>>>> whatever the call was and we play. Having said that today we have first round playoff games and i've got two partners in their first playoff games. I will make sure that we cover this in pregame (g) Thanks David |
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