I am a coach and a basketball official. I am unclear about an apparent rules difference between the NFHS and the NCAA regarding legal action from the windup. My pitcher was called for an illegal pitch because he engaged the rubber with his hands seperate and then he brought his hands together snd paused and was called for an illegal pitch and charged with a ball. Is this ruling correct, and if so, what is the rule reference. I know NCAA Rule 9-1 (a, 1, c) states that it is legal in college, and I don't see any conceivable reason why the rule prohibiting this in HS should exist. Am I missing something?

No coach the official did. The official probably didn't explain it, because he couldn't. This is legal in the wind-up position. Had he started with both hands together and then separated them it would have been different.

FED
F1 engages rubber with hands at sided - legal
F1 now brings his hands together - still legal
F1 pauses after bringing hands together - legal
If F1 breaks his hands without stepping off that would be a balk/illegal pitch depending if there are runners on.

I don't see why your F1 was charged with anything. but let's go further.

Now comes the difference between the two.

NCAA - From the Windup position F1 may

1. Deliver the ball to the batter

2. Step and throw in an attempt to pick off a runner

3. Disengage from the pitching rubber by stepping back with the pivot foot first before seperating his hands or stepping back with the free foot.

FED - From the Windup position F1 may

1. Deliver the ball to the batter

2. Disengage from the pitching rubber by stepping back with the pivot foot first.

Read 6.1.2 real carefully. In Fed it would be a balk/illegal pitch if the pitcher with both hands at his side and standing on the rubber brings his hands together in front and then stops. This is a highly technical balk that is rarely if ever called.

In FED, the time of the pitch from the wind-up includes moving both hands simultaneously (see 2-28-3(b) and 2.28.cC). Your pitcher did that, then stopped. It's an illegal pitch.

If your pitcher wants to adjust the ball, have him start with one hand (usually the glove hand) in front, then bring the other hand up and adjust the ball, then start the pitch.

And,
 

This is just a "me too" post.

The movement of BOTH hands in FED is the start of the wind-up.

The call was correct and IS CALLED by experienced umpires at all times.

It is not a "highly technical balk." It is simply illegal in Federation play.

Ok, I'll suck it up. I fell into case 6.1.2 Sit C: which uses the phrase "brings his hands together", but there are plenty others that describe the separate movement of the arms, that is necessary. My Bad.

You have to move both hands at the same time to bring them together if the hands are at your sides when you engage the rubber. Is just bringing your hands together and then pausing a balk or do you have to bring your hands together and then make some other movement and then pause that will cause a balk?

No, you don't. In FED, starting with both hands at the side, it's legal to move first one hand to the front, then to move the other hand to the front, then pause.

Quote:

Is just bringing your hands together and then pausing a balk or do you have to bring your hands together and then make some other movement and then pause that will cause a balk?

If both hands are moved at the same time, it's an illegal pitch to not continue with the pitch.

Ahhh, okay, I see what your saying.

Thanks for clearing that up Bob!

With all respect to the participates

Wind up
F1 on the rubber, hands at his sides. F1 brings hands together, pauses and then delivers to the plate.

I know a lot of you say its an illegal pitch or a balk. By interpretation, yes it is. But how many of you really call it on the field? I see it all the time in JV and Varsity. I've seen it in SCC finals and tournament finals - and I've never, ever seen it called!

Or is just one of those "I'll call it on the board but never in real life?" :mad:

Ozzy
 

In Portland, OR we call it EVERY time at all high school levels.

In Alabama it is called a balk. It's in the rule book isn't it? POE this year in FED is Umpires shall call what is in the rule book. Don't pick and choose.

No, it's not. All the district directors (at least up here) say that's legal.

I'd have to see it to make a determination, but from what I read it was a legal move.

[Edited by Peruvian on Apr 6th, 2005 at 02:57 PM]

Peruvian:
 

Please you don't have "to see it" . . . the posts and the rules references that make it a balk are quite clear.

What am I missing here . . . I need something to make me see your side.

Re: Peruvian:
 

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :D:

Thank you everyone for providing the rule references, I'm glad I now know the exact rule so I can teach my players accordingly, and I will do so. The part that I don't get is why this rule exists in the first place? As an official, I understand that the umpire had to call it according to the rules, but this rule does not make any sense. The intent of illegal pitch/balk rules is to prevent deception and quick pitching. This rule, frankly, does not do either and it is evident in the differences in rule between Fed, NCAA and MLB. Can anyone explain the purpose of this rule or defend why it shouldn't be changed?

Re: Re: Peruvian:
 

A few years ago there was a change to what is now the FED windup rule(s).
At that time, the Rules slides [which we are all required to view] made quite a point of what was and was not now legal.
Short answer:
IF you take the rubber w/ hands @ side, AND IF you move both hands AT THE SAME TIME, bringing them together in front of the body; THEN you must continue to pitch in an uninterrupted motion.

IF [on the other hand] you take the rubber w/ hands @ side, AND IF you then move your hands, ONE AFTER THE OTHER, bringing them together in front of the body, THEN and in that case, you are NOT required to continue, and may in fact pause before pitching.

WHY is this so? I dunno, except that time of pitch is defined for windup as a simultaneous movement of any two limbs, when engaged with the rubber.

Re: Re: Peruvian:
 

I agree that the rule book is NOT straight forward on this however, if you look at the Case Book, pg43, "The Windup". 6.1.2 Situations c, e, G, h & I all deal with this. i originally only read c and got mixed up myself.

Regional differences vary. You would be considered an OOO to call it in these parts. I have never seen it called.

Correct me if I am wrong but you can only balk when there are runners on base. So if the pitcher does it when the bags are clear it is an illegal pitch. We don't pick boggers in our chapter when the pitch make this move. We normaly give a little heads up to the coach and let it go. If he does it while there are runners on we call the balk.

Thats not to say that it shouldn't be called. There could be a case made that if you don't call the illegal pitch when you first see it and award a ball to the batter, that you could have an adverse effect on the game by calling it when there is more at stake. HUMMMMMMMMM! I think I might change my thinking on this one. Call it if you see it, as soon as you see it, so that the pitch knows before there are runners on! I love this forum.

Re: Re: Peruvian:
 

The rule of thumb here is that two body parts are moveing at the same time (arms). This is the time of the pitch. I see this wind up quite often and they never balk. They bring both hands togther and get after it.

Billy, Billy, Billy
 

In FEDlandia you can "balk" (Brad Rumble's term, not mine) when:

1) If in the wind-up position and the pitcher does the "start-stop" (you see it all the time when a pitcher stops in mid-windup and steps off and starts over) it is determined to be a "balk" (BR term) and a ball is added to the batter's count and,

2) If a pitcher is pitching from the set position and does not make a "stop" (just like with runners on base) it is to be called a "balk" (BR term) and a ball added to the batter's count.

These may not be written in the NFHS rule book, HOWEVER, they were published in the Federation Spring Newsletter during the last 10 years.

The editor of this website may have the specific dates of the newsletters.

In FED it appears that balks do occur with no runners on base.

In closing guys, what other rules do you ignore? Please read this years POEs and get back to me. I am interested to see how you justify not calling the rules that your client publishes.

Lah Me.

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 09:42 AM]

Re: Re: Peruvian:
 

Come on guys, use your history to remember.

Years ago in FED, once the pitcher in the wind-up started any movement of the hands he had to continue to the plate and pitch. He could NOT step off. I could look it up in my books but I don't have time today.

Then FED added the rule several years ago, I would guess in the late 90's giving the pitcher several options.

However, there is not an option to move both hands at the same time and then stop. That part of the rule is still as it was in the 80's.

The only options the F1 has now that is different, is that he can now start with glove in front, then put hands together and at that point he can still step off.

If he has both hands together any movement commits him to pitch.

With both hands down, he can move ONE hand at a time and still step off.

In all situations, if F1 moves both hands at the same time he is committed to pitch.

This is an important rule because it determines when the BR can advance. He must know when the pitcher is committed to the plate.

If as an umpire we allow him to bring BOTH hands up and pause, and then he can step off at that time we have allowed him to gain a big advantage.

Thanks
David

David noted:

"That part of the rule is still as it was in the 80's."

Actually David it has been that way since AT LEAST 1974.

Thanks Tim
 

I kind of figured that. I actually started FED in 1978 but I was young then and didn't keep my rule books.

But I did remember my early training. If the F1 starts any movement, he has to pitch from the windup etc.,

Thanks
David

Thanks for bringing that back up Tee. Nobody has answered you yet, have they?
I said this earlier "In Alabama it is called a balk. It's in the rule book isn't it? POE this year in FED is Umpires shall call what is in the rule book. Don't pick and choose."

bama:
 

Just a further extrapolation of "not calling rules" . . .

I was surfing umpire websites one day when I found this one:

http://www.hartfordumpires.com

Always being interested in Association websites I went into visit the site.

While working my way through the site I found an area called:

"Interpreter's Corner":

In that space were comments on the 2005 NFHS rules changes.

The following was included:

"The 2005 Casebook page 42 Situation J a) allows the pitcher to make an "abrupt" and quick shoulder turn while on the rubber with hands separated. The case book ruling 6-1-1-SITUATION J is "partially" incorrect The RULING should read illegal in (a)and legal in (b). NFHS is aware of the incorrect ruling and will be changing it in next year's case book. This has been confirmed with Ray Faustich - State Interpreter. In the unlikely even that a "studious" coach refers to the ruling in the case book, the umpire should simply tell him that there was a mistake during printing of the case book."

Now this is just a false statement.

It sounded to me much like a local group "not liking" the new rules and were leading their members down a road.

I contacted Elliot Hopkins at the National Federations of High Schools and asked him if, indeed, the test (question #88), the Case Book example and the Interpretation posted on the FED website were all in error.

Elliot's answer was:

" . . . the rule is very clear in all of our publications as you made note in your e-mail. I know Ray very well and am not sure why he would say that the rule is incorrect when clearly it is not. If the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee and the high school community feel that the rule needs to be tweaked, then it will be expressed to the committee and appropriate measures will be taken. I can tell you we do that similar evaluation with every rule annually. I hope this helps in clearing things up for you."

If you go to the Hartford site now you will find that the referenced material above has been removed.

The POE about professionalism was entered into this years book PRECISELY because of local groups that would not call FED rules they did not like.

We have a job . . . that job is to call the rules of our client.

We have people here that work Little League I don't remember them complaining about those rules. We have people that work NABA I don't hear them complaining about those rules.

I am not sure "why" people have so much heartache about FED Baseball Rules. He!!, FED football and basketball have different rules, I don't see those areas of websites having the problems we seem to have in baseball.





[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 05:22 PM]

Way to support the FED
 

Nice post Tee. (Not that you need someone to tell you, as all your posts are excellent :).)

Re: Billy, Billy, Billy
 

I belive you are wrong Mr. Tim.
With all due respect, the FED rule book clearly states on page 17 Rule 2.3 art1.: A balk is an Illegal act committed by the pitcher with a runner(s) on base which entitles each runner to advance one base.
further more an Illegal pitch which is by fed rule page 21 2.18 art1: An illegal pitch is an illegal act committed by the pitcher with no runners on base, which results in a ball being awarded the batter. When an illegal pitch occurs with a runner, or runners, on base, IT IS A BALK!

There it is in BALK and white.
any way, I think I am going to call it when I see the illegal pitch for the reason I stated in my earlier post.

LOL

Billy

Re: Re: Billy, Billy, Billy
 

Billy:

Tee was quoting a reference by Brad Rumble, not citing a personal belief. He is correct in his reference. Rumble did say what Tee wrote. Before you argue further you should check with your editor at officiating.com.

Billy Boy
 

Gee Billy, you have a might trouble 'ritin' and mo trouble readin'.

Please ask Carl to explain FED and Brad Rumble.

You might be surprised, Smitty.

Ill do it. Thanks

Re: bama:
 

Tim: You did the FED a real service by calling the CT error to the attention of Mr. Hopkins.

Perhaps you recall the screaming about my play in the BRD concerning a lodged ball: "We ain't calling it in Illinois," someone posted. "Our interpreter told us...." Umpires from other states chimed in. They were all wrong, of course. When the interpreters met in January, the FED administrators put a stop to all that nonsense.

You pointed out that FED umpires are always complaining about the rules rather than doing what their "bosses" (the NFHS) require.

As Marisa Tomei said in <i>My Cousin Vinny</i>, You are "balls on accurate."

Re: Re: bama:
 

Just as a note to Papa C & Tim, I reside in CT but I am not a member of the Hartford Board. I belong to the Greater New Haven Board and I hate to say, we were told the same thing - quick head turn = no balk! Now here is another quandary. All you guys are from different parts of the country and you are calling this a balk per the rules. We get the same rule book but a different interpretation from our STATE INTERPERTER! It's kind of like saying "in Carl's association, you will only wear one ball bag and in mine you may wear two if you wish." If the whole state is getting the information that the quick head turn is not a balk, what are we supposed to do?

Re: Re: Re: bama:
 

I'm a little confused. A "quick head turn" is <i>not</i> a balk anywhere. The issue is what does the umpire call when the pitcher, before coming to the stop in the set position, quickly turns his <i>shoulders</i> to check a runner. The answer is: Under FED rules/interpretations, he calls nothing, for "That ain't a balk!"

Re: Re: Re: Re: bama:
 

Don't be confused, it's my fault! When we were discussing the shoulder turn, we talked about a quick head turn and a quick shoulder turn. I just was being my 0630 self this morning.

Carl, I'm sure that you read the whole post here with my analogy on the original pause in the windup. I brought this to my superiors, but I won't see the rules interperter until next week. Can you give me your opinion? I promise I will not argue with your opinion but I will print it out for my rules interperter to read. Tim C never got back to me on it. Thanks

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bama:
 

Here's the passage you wrote:

<font color=navy><b>Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!</font></b>

First of all, the pitcher may <i>as he steps onto the rubber</i> move both hands and bring them together to address the batter. That's legal.

Bringing both hands together after being on the rubber is the start of a delivery because the FED defines it that way. Consult the casebook plays at 6.1.2.

I respectfully disagree that bringing the hands together and going straight to the pitching motion will create a balk.

The pitcher has both hands at his side. He brings them together above his head as his non-pivot foot is stepping back from the rubber. That's a perfectly ordinary delivery in the windup, right?

And that's the basis for the FED rule that movement by both hands, followed by a stop, is a balk. They argue that since an ordinary delivery in the windup begins with movement of both hands, the runner (at third, we presume) may begin his steal of home at that moment. If the pitcher may then legally stop, he may then legally step off after the stop and throw out the runner.

Fact is, the FED rule is excellent. (It's "offense friendly," but so are most of baseball's rules.)

Yep,
 

Well said, PapaC . . .

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bama:
 

Thanks Carl and Tim C. I see the raising of the hands over the head with no problem (the old pump). My problem was the hands coming together at say chest level. Well, I printed out the whole thread and when I see our Rules guy next week I'll get the "here's how we will do it". Thanks again guys.

Oh by the way Carl, we discussed something several years ago - 1918? The new chant at Yankee Stadium is 2090! I really enjoyed 2004, now I can die happy!!! :p

Ozzy:
 

As things become more clear in your state it looks seriously as if Ray Faustich's interpretation is the root of the problem.

Ray was the chairman of the FED rules committe for several years. He is a BIG "big dog" . . . but set that aside for a moment.

Ray WAS NOT AT THE SUMMER MEETINGS when this rule was developed and agreed upon. I have contacted two members of the committe that wrote the rule and BOTH (independent of each other) said the rule was written, the case book play written and the web interpretation EXACTLY as they wanted it called.

Now Mr. Hopkins left "weasal room" as always that the rule can be tweaked.

I am sorry that you live in a state with a bad interpretation looking you right in the face . . . I would hope that you will get a correction from the State Rules Guru.

Re: Re: Peruvian:
 

See 2-28-3 for the definition that makes moving both hands together the start of the pitch.

I tried the move we've been discussing, and there was no (discernable) pause. That said, my 50mph "heater" was hit pretty hard. ;)

NFHS Windup
 

covered in Referee, March 2001

Re: NFHS Windup
 

Case closed, a definitive resource has been cited :-)

I am enjoying the discussion of this issue and based on the discussion it seems clear that the rule is not only poorly written, but it's a classic example of rulebook minutia that makes a game more difficult to officiate. I think the reasons why this rule exist have been well explained, but really the only situation in practice where a violation of this rule can be considered deceptive is the hands over head move with a runner on third. The point of the balk rule is to prevent deception. I don't understand why, though, other clear attempts to deceive, such as the "3-1" move are legal and the minor movement of 2 hands to a stop in front of the body is considered deceptive enough to call a balk. Lefties practice moves to deceive runners at first. I agree that they are part of the game, but I don't see the sense from a rules perspective in allowing blatant attempts to deceive and to punish largely unnoticed movements by the pitcher. Rather than wording the rule in general language, the rule should be clear. If the rules committee wants to stop a pitcher from doing something specifically deceptive, they should ban that specific action, not speak in generalities.

Your'e missing the FED's point, which is: Why should F1 be able to deceive R3 about when he intends to wind up?

Since movement of both hands is <i>defined</i> as the start of a pitch, then movement followed by a stop is more than deceptive.

Wouldn't you agree?

The point: We write rules all the time to deal with one specific situation. Interference with a double play possible, malicious contact, running lane, running the bases in reverse order, etc.

FED did this -- they banned the specific action of moving both hands, then stopping. Consider FED without this rule: Some coach is going to teach his kids to "abruptly" bring the hands together, in hopes of "faking" some runner into believing that was the start of a pitch. FED doesn't believe umpires can discern the difference, or doesn't want the umpires to have to discern the differenc. It's consistent with other FED rulings -- a specific action is either legal (see the "abrupt shoulder turn") or illegal without regard to "intent."

Now, since FED has the rule, we don't see the move. And, since the move wouldn't work in NCAA or pro (it would either be balked, or the runners woudn't be fooled), it's easy to tell teh difference between bringing the hans togeher and starting the pitch. So, we say that we don't need the rule. But, if we didn't have it, we'd need it.

WOW,
 

SMEngmann is starting to sound more and more like "rulesgeek" in every post.

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods.

Why?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods. [/B][/QUOTE]Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it.

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods. [/B][/QUOTE]Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book.

Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject?

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]Childress writes: <b><font color=red>I've written often about the technical balk of stepping off with the wrong foot. (Of course, you know that is not listed as a balk in the OBR. Right? You knew that?) At any rate, I won't comment further on that.

Another poster said that moving both hands and then pausing is a balk that isn't called in "my neck of the woods." I asked: "Why?" And <i>you</i> replied.

So I assumed you were from the same neck of the woods. I was just having a little fun. I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.</font></b>

If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]Childress writes: <b><font color=red>I've written often about the technical balk of stepping off with the wrong foot. (Of course, you know that is not listed as a balk in the OBR. Right? You knew that?) At any rate, I won't comment further on that.

Another poster said that moving both hands and then pausing is a balk that isn't called in "my neck of the woods." I asked: "Why?" And <i>you</i> replied.

So I assumed you were from the same neck of the woods. I was just having a little fun. I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.</font></b> [/B][/QUOTE] I don't know if I am from the same neck of the woods as the poster you mention. I thought you were referencing the color of my neck, which is certainly, and proudly, RED.

David Wells was called for a balk recently when he stepped off with the wrong foot in a game vs. NY. But I think he had started his motion and stepped off.

Last week I saw a left handed relief pitcher, in the top of the 5th inning of a FED game start with his right foot in front of the rubber. His first step was also in front of the rubber. The score was 14-2, home team leading, bases loaded, one out. Relief pitcher was the home team reliever. Since bases were loaded none of the runners were fooled, by the "balk", no one complained, and the game ended on a strikeout and a fly ball. I put this in the category of a "technical balk".

Now I am confused about what constitutes a technical balk and what does not. Regional differences may vary, but in these parts bringing the hands together and stopping is not called a balk. No runners are fooled and no coaches expect a balk to be called. If a coach wants to protest the non-call he will win, if I am UIC, because I know the rule. But I have never seen a coach complain. If I call it, I will have to explain it, every time.

DG: Stepping off with the wrong foot IS a balk by official interpretation. (PBUC and MLBUM both agree.) It's a black letter balk in FED and NCAA. I never call that one, and nobody complains because they know what the pitcher is doing. They also think I know all the rules, so....

Now, when that pitcher steps off with the wrong foot and raises his arms simultaneously: "That's a balk." For sure.

Let me conclude my part in this thread: If the umpires in your association don't call the hand movement a balk, that's different from your association telling you NOT to call it a balk. If they do that, they're wrong and unethical.

I would call it, and I would explain it carefully to both coaches in every game. There would be a groundswell of opinion in favor of the book because a pitcher gains a great advantage over a well-coached runner when he can move both hands without pitching.

After I talked to a few coaches, the players would ALL become well-coached.

Look, you KNOW it's a balk. The FED book is very clear and very certain. And it's been a balk since 1993! This is the thirteenth season since the rule was adopted: How can that information not have surfaced in your neck of the woods? (grin)

It's called in Texas, Illinois, and Washington, we know, because posters from those areas have said so.

It ought to be called in your area.

BTW: Do they use the DH where you work? (another grin) I know some FED umpires who hate that rule, and ....

Sounds like bad coaching to me
 

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David

Re: Sounds like bad coaching to me
 

If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David [/B][/QUOTE]How you going to pick a runner off third on this? You can't make a pick from the windup in FED.

Re: Re: Sounds like bad coaching to me
 

The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David [/B][/QUOTE]How you going to pick a runner off third on this? You can't make a pick from the windup in FED. [/B][/QUOTE]You missed the answer that David had: <font color=navy><b>Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.</b></font>

Remember, the well-coached runner is stealing home on first movement. Quick first movement, stop, step off....

Actually, the official scorer would label the out (as it would surely be) as "caught stealing" because the throw would go to the catcher, not the third baseman.

A picky little matter, but it is mine own.

According to my wife - and she knows these things - that's not the only picky little matter around my house.

Lah, me.

My association does not tell me not to call this, never said so. I mentioned a situation that would always be called a balk (wrong foot) and one that would rarely be called a balk (hand movement).

I know a balk when I see it, by black letter rule, but I am trying to rationalize the "technical ones" not to call. I would call stepping off with the wrong foot, everyone expects it. I have not, to date, called bringing hands together and stopping, in FED, because no one expects it.

Most people on this board calling FED expect it, so start calling it. A BALK is a BALK.

What ever works for you!
 

Not to be pesky,(is that a word even??), but I just don't like it when I hear an umpire say "I know a balk when I see it."

What we have been trying to point out is that you can also "know a balk" by what the rules say and without seeing it for that matter.

If your coaches don't expect it, then that speaks a lot of your coaches. Ours would have you for lunch if it wasn't called, and I know the guys in TX would also, I called there for 10 years.

Thanks
David

Carl wrote a book, 51 Ways to Ruin a BASEBALL Game. I bought it, read it, enjoyed it. Number 7, was "Call a (highly) technical balk". Play 10 was stepping off with the wrong foot. That would get called every time by a FED umpire in my area. Everyone expects it and you get an earful from the bench if you did not see it and call it. However, bringing the hands together in front, and stopping, would not get a sound from anybody. I have NEVER heard anyone mention this one not being called. Maybe it's because there is a lot of OBR played after HS season, and it's not a balk in OBR. I just know it's a highly technical balk in these parts that nobody is concerned about. You guys in other parts continue to do what you do. But don't chastise me for doing what is normal and expected around here.

Maybe we need a new book on regional differences.

You mean ...
 

that you would actually CALL a balk when a guy steps back with the wrong foot?

That's LL stuff. Coaches like to complain about that becuase LL umpires call it all the time because that's the only thing they know to call that can be a balk.

Once they reach HS, everyone knows when the pitcher is going to change positions because the coach (or infielder) will say "hey dummy, step off".

Why not call a real balk, and then have fun explaining to the coach how you know the rule and here it is etc., that's what I call having fun being an umpire.

Thanks
David

Let me ask this question. Let's say the pitcher is steping on the rubber and while he is bringing both feet together on the rubber, he is moving both hands to a position in front of his body. The pitcher is basically bringing his hands together as he steps on the rubber.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

What if he steps on the rubber with his hands out in front of him, but there not at his sides and but not directly in front of him either. Kind of in between at his sides and infront of him. The pitcher then doesn't move his hands to be in front of him and take his sign until his feet are in position on the rubber, which means there might be a pause with his hands at that in between position before he brings them directly in front of his body.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

I am asking because these are the types of moves I see kids make and I want to know if these are considered balks or not?

It sounds like what most in this thread are calling a balk is when the pitcher engages the rubber with his hands at his sides, there is a pause and then he moves both hands to in front of his body. Am I reading this right?

Allowed. It's all part of "getting comfortable on the rubber." If we took the FED's "the pitching restrictions start when F1 intentionally contacts the rubber with the pivot foot" literally, we'd have dozens of balks a game.



If the pitcher has become "comfortable" and then moves both hands together, he has started his pitch.

Quote:

I am asking because these are the types of moves I see kids make and I want to know if these are considered balks or not? It sounds like what most in this thread are calling a balk is when the pitcher engages the rubber with his hands at his sides, there is a pause and then he moves both hands to in front of his body. Am I reading this right?

Yes, you are reading this right.

Re: You mean ...
 

I'd call that in a HS or college game EVERY TIME. The wrong foot back is the time of the pitch.

It's no wonder newer umpires have so much trouble with this.

Well, I spoke to our rules interperter in front of the membership about two things: The windup and the gorilla arm. The following is the results of that discussion (text in italics are the answers our rules interperter).

FED RULES

The Windup

Pitcher steps onto the rubber in the windup position with his hands at his sides. He then joins them in front of him and pauses.

The pitcher is now committed to the pitch. This is not a balk as long as the pitcher pitches. If he does anything else, that would be a balk.

The Gorilla Arm

Pitcher in the stretch swinging his pitching arm like a gorilla.

What rule is the pitcher breaking here? As long as the pitcher is hanging his arm at full extention and the ball is in the glove, there is no reason to consider this to be a balkable offense. If, however, he has the ball in his glove and the glove is tucked a his chest and the free arm is bent toward the chest close to the glove, that would be a deception to the runner. There is nothing that I can see that would cause me to call a balk on a pitcher with a "gorilla arm".

The membership was in full agreement and that is how we will be handling these two situations in Southern Connecticut.

Oh, well.

Ozzy,
Was this you local rules interpreter or our state interpreter?

Rule 6-1-2 clearly says "After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interuption or alteration." If he is committed to pitch then he must have started his pitching motion. You either start your motion and are committed to pitch or you haven't, which means you can step off. But if you have committed to pitch, you can't pause. How does the rules interpreter rationalize that?

The gorilla arm interpretation is just flat out wrong. The rule interpretation is on the website. It reads
"SITUATION 5: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand down in front of his body, swinging slowly as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of this “gorilla” stance in the set position is illegal. A pitcher, for the set position, shall have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. (6-1-3)"

I don't get it? I tought these guys are supposed to know the rules?

This was our rules interperter. And I am really not going to argue - I'm just a grunt. I told all of you that I would get the interpertation from our rules interperter. If anyone wants to go the the state interperter here in CT, that's fine. But I know our rules guy and he and the state interperter are usually tied at the hip!

No matter the physical relationship between your "rules guy" and the state interpreter it wouldn't be the first time the CT interpreter went against the clear instructions of FED and when he's corrected, it won't be the first that's happened either.

Hey Ozzy, I'm not asking you to argue. Just pointing out the folly of those "interpretations". Since I live in CT and am part of the Central CT association, the interpretations of your interpreter mean a little more, especially since he and Ray are tied at the hip.

Ray was already proven dead wrong on the whole shoulder turn balk test question and it appears that if the interpreters are tied at the hip, he is dead wrong about the gorilla arm interpretation as well. I would bet money on the windup question.

I am beginning to have very little faith in our state interpreter.

And if you have'nt had enough Kaliix, I find out the other day that "Ground Rule Triples" are also quite acceptable here too.

Have a Wonderful Season?????????????????

Both of these situations are balks, per FED rules and interps. But apparently regional differences vary on whether these are too technical to call.

Well, this makes my job easier. I have emailed your message to Elliot Hopkins at the National Federation. I'm sure he will be happy to investigate.

Please don't take me wrong. I look at it this way, I'm a grunt and my "boss" says do it this way - so I will. But if I move to Pappa C's state, I'll have to change. But I'll still be a Rex Sox fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Carl. It would be nice if we are ALL on the same page, but alas, area differences abound. As I posted to another, I'm just a grunt and my "boss" says do it this way, so I will. If I move out to your way, I'll have to change.

Baseball - what a wonderful spit------I mean sport!

Ozzy
 

Again, we have an umpire group (it appears yours this time) that selects to call rules as that want them rather than what the client requires.

I suggest your group read the POEs, especially the one about Professionalism.

I was just giving a local team (13-15 yr olds) a clinic on legal pitching positions. From the windup, I was telling them they could step onto the rubber with hands to their sides, and then bring hands together as they got the sign, pause and get ball set for the pitch they are going to make. From that position they could step off or pitch.

From what I have been reading that is wrong according to CC and others.

My question is how is that deceiving? I can see if there was another movement such as stepping back with the pivot foot and then bringing both hands together to make it look like the start of a windup.

I would also like to comment on statements made about well coached runners. Well coached runners will run once they see the non-pivot foot move back. If a pitcher steps off with his non-pivot foot and this is not called a balk, as some have stated it is not, you are giving the pitcher a great advantage. If I were coaching and my runner got picked off because you didn't call it, you better have a damn good reason when I come out, because I would be comin'!

JMO

You must not have read the entire thread. I posted a few pages back as did Carl about the pitcher's intent in gaining an advantage. (And Carl gave several examples)

AGain, its an advantage because once he pauses, then he could step off with his "pivot" foot and make a play.
That's illegal.

Runners at third at taught to move once the pitcher starts his motion from the windup. At least that's the way a good coach will do it.

As far as the other, you can come out all you want. No one is going to get picked off when "everyone" in the ballpark knows what the pitcher is doing.

Again, I'm talking about kids that shave, even though I did have kid turn on the mound the other day in a 14yr select tourney and it was ignored, and no one said a word.

After the game a fan (coach) said something about it and I told him I didn't see it. (or during the game we could always have time)

Thanks
David

I guess
 

The thread may be so long that you (thumpferee) may have missed the critical issue.

Under National Federation Rules the movement as described is the start of the wind-up. It is a balk for the same logic you are using with "stepping off with the wrong foot" issue.

Note: "I" have never said NOT to call the balk of stepping off with the wrong foot -- unlike a couple of posters here I do not feel it is a technical balk -- it is a critical move with a runner on third and in a potential squeeze situation.

Do they play by FED rules or OBR (or, less likely, NCAA)? The move is legal in the latter two, but is the start of a pitch in the former.

It was OBR rules I was giving instruction under, but did not know there was a difference in FED.

I see now that FED believes this to be the start of a windup and should be called a balk.

Thanks for replies.

I edited this to ask: Under FED rules, if the pitcher steps onto the rubber with hands hands together, he can then step off?

[Edited by thumpferee on Apr 13th, 2005 at 09:50 AM]

Re: Ozzy
 

Tee:

I can't believe you've actually made yourself believe (as part of your sig line mantra) that the NFHS is the client.

My clients would be: The schools, the leagues, and the state office. I can't remember EVER getting a check from or directly interfacing with the NFHS.

--Rich

Rich,
 

And I totally disagree with you, respectfully of course.

The NFHS IS the client if a school is signatory to their association. No local high school has ever officially changed an NFHS rule -- the schools select to answer directly to the NFHS and therefore, in my opinion, that makes the FED the ultimate client.

Just because your check comes from a school (BTW, I do not receive checks directly from any school, ever, we are paid through my association -- does that mean that my association is my client?) it does not, in my opinion, mean that they are the client.

Now let's get back to more important things like:

Umpires in the State of Connecticut (state wide) are told to NOT call FED pitching rules.

It is a direct representation of the State Interpreter telling the state umpires to change rules that he does not agree with.

The SI has told stories that are simply untrue to local boards. It is obvious that the SI does not want FED pitching rules called.

Oh yeah, their State Interpreter was head of the FED rules committee for four years.

It is sad Rich, it is sad.

Re: Rich,
 

At the end of the day, what does it matter to us? I don't CARE what they do in Connecticut. If the SI's directive is clearly communicated to the teams and umpires and everyone is on the same page, they are a step ahead of many places in the US. Now, if the SI only mentions this to a few people and the rulings are inconsistent statewide, then it's a different issue.

Part of moving to WI was determining what was expected of umpires here WRT balks. I certainly can't go around being the only umpire in the state calling the "bring both hands up in the windup and pause" balk or the old "shoulder-turn" balk. It doesn't help the teams, the game, or my prospects of getting and maintaining a good schedule.

And if the CT teams head up to MA or over to RI to play, they'll be in for a shock since they use OBR for HS games. Or they did, anyway, when I lived in MA.

--Rich

I concur ...
 

Tee you are exactly correct, if the runner is on third or squeeze position the stepping off with the wrong foot is considered. Especially if he's making a move to the base.

I probably confused everyone, the play that I'm talking about is when the pitcher steps on the rubber and everyone in the ballpark is saying "hey dummy step off" and the pitcher might step off or step sideways or something but it might not be with the correct foot.

Usually its F2 who is the one who steps from behind the plate or stands up and hollers etc.,

So that's what I'm talking about, don't know about anyone else.

Thanks
David

Re: I guess
 

I agree 110%.