PU Calls Bunt Foul - I think

[officialtony]

HS JV Game. 5th inning, batter lays down a bunt in front of Home Plate. Catcher comes up following batter out of the box. PU follows catcher out of the box and throws up his hands in what appears to be a " Foul " signal. In the mean time the catcher stops. He cannot see the PU and I cannot hear the PU. I am GUESSING that the catcher heard the PU say " Foul ". I do not know that for certain. In the mean time the batter runner is already standing on 1st and the BU is signaling nothing when the PU continues to walk out to the BU asking him if the ball hit the batter in the box. BU clearly indicates he doesn't know but doesn't think so. PU signals batter is now safe on 1st and instructs Caoch to bring up the next batter. Coach of defense is now asking the PU about the foul signal and his catcher stopping because he apparently " heard " the PU call foul. I don't kow what transpired in the continuing conversation but the PU left the runner on 1st and continued on.
My question - once he signaled " Foul " either verbally or with his hand signal, isn't the ball dead and shouldn't the batter come back to the plate with a strike added to count? The PU made the call and I am thinking he should have had to stick with it - right or wrong. I think this is one he booted and was afraid to admit it. But I also believe it could be corrected by putting the batter back in the box. ( I made reference to the 5th inning because I had seen the PU signal foul enough times to feel the signal he gave at the time of the bunt WAS his foul signal. )
Please advise your thinking.

[Tim C]

I'm sorry, You do not allowed to answer your posts.


[Edited by Tim C on Mar 30th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

[DG]

FOUL is hard to take back. If you make this call, be right.

[Edited by DG on Mar 29th, 2005 at 10:12 PM]

[umpire29]

foul ball, eat the call put batter back in box with the count at the time.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by officialtony
HS JV Game...... My question - once he signaled " Foul " either verbally or with his hand signal, isn't the ball dead and shouldn't the batter come back to the plate with a strike added to count? The PU made the call and I am thinking he should have had to stick with it - right or wrong. I think this is one he booted and was afraid to admit it. But I also believe it could be corrected by putting the batter back in the box. ( I made reference to the 5th inning because I had seen the PU signal foul enough times to feel the signal he gave at the time of the bunt WAS his foul signal. )
Please advise your thinking.

Unfortunately, if you are playing by FED rules, once an umpire calls foul, the ball is dead - no matter whether the ball is really fair or foul.

[Edited by ozzy6900 on Mar 30th, 2005 at 06:57 AM]

[IveGot3rd]

FED 5-1-1 (h) specifies "verbally announces 'Foul Ball'." Our interpreter basically recommended avoid saying it, use the signal.

IG3

[David B]

Originally posted by officialtony
HS JV Game. 5th inning, batter lays down a bunt in front of Home Plate. Catcher comes up following batter out of the box. PU follows catcher out of the box and throws up his hands in what appears to be a " Foul " signal. In the mean time the catcher stops. He cannot see the PU and I cannot hear the PU. I am GUESSING that the catcher heard the PU say " Foul ". I do not know that for certain. In the mean time the batter runner is already standing on 1st and the BU is signaling nothing when the PU continues to walk out to the BU asking him if the ball hit the batter in the box. BU clearly indicates he doesn't know but doesn't think so. PU signals batter is now safe on 1st and instructs Caoch to bring up the next batter. Coach of defense is now asking the PU about the foul signal and his catcher stopping because he apparently " heard " the PU call foul. I don't kow what transpired in the continuing conversation but the PU left the runner on 1st and continued on.
My question - once he signaled " Foul " either verbally or with his hand signal, isn't the ball dead and shouldn't the batter come back to the plate with a strike added to count? The PU made the call and I am thinking he should have had to stick with it - right or wrong. I think this is one he booted and was afraid to admit it. But I also believe it could be corrected by putting the batter back in the box. ( I made reference to the 5th inning because I had seen the PU signal foul enough times to feel the signal he gave at the time of the bunt WAS his foul signal. )
Please advise your thinking.

what he said???

If he signals what you think if foul its nothing.

In FED its always a foul (now by rule) if the umpire says "foul" verbally.

So if he signals and doesn't say foul he was okay.

Sounds like that is what happened, since he let the play continue.

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

So what happened when the coach protested the misapplication of the rule?

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by mcrowder
So what happened when the coach protested the misapplication of the rule?

Just a note here - If you are playing FED rules, if the umpire calls the ball foul it is foul and that's all there is to it. There is no protest to be had because in FED, it is the judgement of the umpire that makes the ball foul. Simply put, in a FED game, a bunt that lands 5 feet in front of the plate and never touched can be called foul by an umpire and there is nothing that you can do about it! Once called foul, forever it will be foul! It just means that umpires doing FED ball have to be on their toes!

Just my $.02!

[gobama84]

Originally posted by mcrowder
So what happened when the coach protested the misapplication of the rule?

First off some states don't allow protests in FED games, and secondly it was a JV game...Get over it.

[mcrowder]

Gobama - exactly what am I supposed to get over? That was a remarkably rude response to a very simple question.

Why does the fact that it was JV have anything at all to do with the protest ability?

There are states that don't allow protests? Really? Scary if true.

Ozzy - his call of fair/foul (a judgement call, I agree) is not the protestable issue here. It's the umpire's decision to leave BR on 1st after first calling it foul (assuming that is actually what he called) that is protestable.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by IveGot3rd
FED 5-1-1 (h) specifies "verbally announces 'Foul Ball'." Our interpreter basically recommended avoid saying it, use the signal.

IG3

Your intepreter is wrong. The diference in signally a foul ball and a fair ball is that a foul ball is verbally signaled as well as visually signaled. A fair ball is only visually signaled. That is why players are (or at least should be) taught to play until they hear an umpire shout foul.

MTD, Sr.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Your intepreter is wrong. The diference in signally a foul ball and a fair ball is that a foul ball is verbally signaled as well as visually signaled. A fair ball is only visually signaled. That is why players are (or at least should be) taught to play until they hear an umpire shout foul.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

You are correct, but with the Fed change last year that the announcement of a "foul ball", under all circumstances causes a dead ball, this can cause some problem for the officials that oveuse the term "foul ball".

Many new officials, (as I did when I started) tend to announce even routine foul balls habitually. Eg. Over the back stop. As pointed out in this years 2005 internet NFHS Rules Interpretations, Situation 3, a too soon announcement of a foul ball could result in the nullification of a routine catch of a ball in foul territory. If the announcement is verbally made, and the fielder makes a catch after the fact, the out is nullified, the ball is dead and a foul ball is charged to the batter.

So although it may be impossible to NOT verbally announce "Foul Ball", it is now adviseable to use your words wisely.

[DG]

One exception is listed in the 2005 interpretations (#4). If a ball goes over the fence near a foul pole and the ump says foul ball, this is correctable if it was actually fair, because the ump saying foul did not make the ball dead, it's leaving the park did.

[officialtony]

to mcrowder -
The coach spoke with the PU for about a minute and a half. The PU appeared to be defending himself, but I do not know what was said. I do know that the runner was left on base even after it appeared he had called the ball foul. Again, I want to emphasize that I did not HEAR him say Foul. I only saw his hands clearly ( in my mind ) signal foul. But enough people on and off the field felt it was called foul to have the coach come out to question the runner being left on 1st base.
Again, my feeling is the PU booted the call and didn't want to admit it. The real point of my post was -
If I was the one who made this error as the PU, should I put the batter/runner back in the box with another strike to his count and admit I blew the original call, or . . . . do I leave him at first and try to talk my way out of it? My gut feeling is I admit the mistake and make the batter return to the box. I was looking for others to tell me how they would handle it