HS JV Game. 5th inning, batter lays down a bunt in front of Home Plate. Catcher comes up following batter out of the box. PU follows catcher out of the box and throws up his hands in what appears to be a " Foul " signal. In the mean time the catcher stops. He cannot see the PU and I cannot hear the PU. I am GUESSING that the catcher heard the PU say " Foul ". I do not know that for certain. In the mean time the batter runner is already standing on 1st and the BU is signaling nothing when the PU continues to walk out to the BU asking him if the ball hit the batter in the box. BU clearly indicates he doesn't know but doesn't think so. PU signals batter is now safe on 1st and instructs Caoch to bring up the next batter. Coach of defense is now asking the PU about the foul signal and his catcher stopping because he apparently " heard " the PU call foul. I don't kow what transpired in the continuing conversation but the PU left the runner on 1st and continued on.
My question - once he signaled " Foul " either verbally or with his hand signal, isn't the ball dead and shouldn't the batter come back to the plate with a strike added to count? The PU made the call and I am thinking he should have had to stick with it - right or wrong. I think this is one he booted and was afraid to admit it. But I also believe it could be corrected by putting the batter back in the box. ( I made reference to the 5th inning because I had seen the PU signal foul enough times to feel the signal he gave at the time of the bunt WAS his foul signal. )
Please advise your thinking.

Mmmmm,
 

I'm sorry, You do not allowed to answer your posts.


[Edited by Tim C on Mar 30th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

FOUL is hard to take back. If you make this call, be right.

[Edited by DG on Mar 29th, 2005 at 10:12 PM]

foul ball, eat the call put batter back in box with the count at the time.

Unfortunately, if you are playing by FED rules, once an umpire calls foul, the ball is dead - no matter whether the ball is really fair or foul.

[Edited by ozzy6900 on Mar 30th, 2005 at 06:57 AM]

FED 5-1-1 (h) specifies "verbally announces 'Foul Ball'." Our interpreter basically recommended avoid saying it, use the signal.

IG3

You really don't know ...
 

what he said???

If he signals what you think if foul its nothing.

In FED its always a foul (now by rule) if the umpire says "foul" verbally.

So if he signals and doesn't say foul he was okay.

Sounds like that is what happened, since he let the play continue.

Thanks
David

So what happened when the coach protested the misapplication of the rule?

Just a note here - If you are playing FED rules, if the umpire calls the ball foul it is foul and that's all there is to it. There is no protest to be had because in FED, it is the judgement of the umpire that makes the ball foul. Simply put, in a FED game, a bunt that lands 5 feet in front of the plate and never touched can be called foul by an umpire and there is nothing that you can do about it! Once called foul, forever it will be foul! It just means that umpires doing FED ball have to be on their toes!

Just my $.02!

First off some states don't allow protests in FED games, and secondly it was a JV game...Get over it.

Gobama - exactly what am I supposed to get over? That was a remarkably rude response to a very simple question.

Why does the fact that it was JV have anything at all to do with the protest ability?

There are states that don't allow protests? Really? Scary if true.

Ozzy - his call of fair/foul (a judgement call, I agree) is not the protestable issue here. It's the umpire's decision to leave BR on 1st after first calling it foul (assuming that is actually what he called) that is protestable.

Your intepreter is wrong. The diference in signally a foul ball and a fair ball is that a foul ball is verbally signaled as well as visually signaled. A fair ball is only visually signaled. That is why players are (or at least should be) taught to play until they hear an umpire shout foul.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

You are correct, but with the Fed change last year that the announcement of a "foul ball", under all circumstances causes a dead ball, this can cause some problem for the officials that oveuse the term "foul ball".

Many new officials, (as I did when I started) tend to announce even routine foul balls habitually. Eg. Over the back stop. As pointed out in this years 2005 internet NFHS Rules Interpretations, Situation 3, a too soon announcement of a foul ball could result in the nullification of a routine catch of a ball in foul territory. If the announcement is verbally made, and the fielder makes a catch after the fact, the out is nullified, the ball is dead and a foul ball is charged to the batter.

So although it may be impossible to NOT verbally announce "Foul Ball", it is now adviseable to use your words wisely.

One exception is listed in the 2005 interpretations (#4). If a ball goes over the fence near a foul pole and the ump says foul ball, this is correctable if it was actually fair, because the ump saying foul did not make the ball dead, it's leaving the park did.

to mcrowder -
The coach spoke with the PU for about a minute and a half. The PU appeared to be defending himself, but I do not know what was said. I do know that the runner was left on base even after it appeared he had called the ball foul. Again, I want to emphasize that I did not HEAR him say Foul. I only saw his hands clearly ( in my mind ) signal foul. But enough people on and off the field felt it was called foul to have the coach come out to question the runner being left on 1st base.
Again, my feeling is the PU booted the call and didn't want to admit it. The real point of my post was -
If I was the one who made this error as the PU, should I put the batter/runner back in the box with another strike to his count and admit I blew the original call, or . . . . do I leave him at first and try to talk my way out of it? My gut feeling is I admit the mistake and make the batter return to the box. I was looking for others to tell me how they would handle it

" If the announcement is verbally made, and the fielder makes a catch after the fact, the out is nullified, the ball is dead and a foul ball is charged to the batter. "

jicecone -
Is this true?
I have never heard this referenced before.
Could you give me any FED references to this either in the Rules Book or Case Book? I am not questioning whether or not you are correct. I only want a reference so that when I see this I can quote a reference.
Thanks in advance.

2005 Interp #3.

Rule book 5-1-1.h

Go to NFHS.org Latest baseball rule interpretations, Sit # 3

Also think about it. The rule says the ball is Dead when announced. Well like the balk in fed, Its DEAD.

Bob & jicecone -

THANKS ! ! ! ! !

Very much appreciated!

If I'm the PU and I threw my hands up like it was foul, it's going be foul, right or wrong, whether I said anything or not. The lesser of two evils is a strike on the batter, vs. a base runner.

If I was on bases and my partner made this same signal and then came out to ask me what I saw I might say "It does not matter what I saw, because you are going to look like a damn fool if this is not ruled a foul ball, so it will be best for me to shake my head up and down like I agree with you and we leave this a foul ball and bring this guy back to bat."

DG,
Great points made.
I neglected to consider being the BU on this call. But I agree with you. Support the PU but make the right call - Foul Ball and move on.
Great insight.
Thanks.

I don't understand the concern for this scenario. It's an easy one to avoid. Don't call batted balls foul before they are. What's the confusion?

Everybody has a brain fart every now and then. I had one about two weeks ago. I was in A when a bounding ball bounced over the top of the bag directly at me. As I was dodging the ball I threw my left hand out toward foul territory and immediately realized it was the wrong hand in the wrong direction, so I turned and emphatically signalled fair a number of times with my right hand. I suppose if this had been a FED game (it was not), and I had said FOUL, it would have to remain foul. Nobody said a word about my initial wrong hand wrong call.

The confusion is due to brain farts.

GB
There is no confusion.
Had I not seen this happen, I would never had thought it a possibility. Since I did see it, and I disagreed with the way it was handled, I wanted to find out other opinions on this. I agree that
" if it ain't foul, don't call it foul "
is a good philosophy. But since I am always learning, I look for insights from others.

Thanks for the replies.


OOPS!
Just reread your post and realized it pertained to the Foul Fly Ball Caught after the PU called it Foul. I have NOT seen that happen, but I have seen hasty calls made which I now percieve to be premature. I can be sure that I will NOT be calling ANYTHING Foul until it is in fact foul.

Thanks

[Edited by officialtony on Mar 30th, 2005 at 11:18 PM]

In an ideal world everyone does everything right.

Rule 5-1-1h addresses a real world happening to correct the situation should an umpire make the mistake. The rule is specific and requires a VERBAL ANNOUNCEMENT.

If the umpire did not verbally state "foul ball' then no mistake has been made and nothing to correct. The hand signal, while in error, means nothing per this rule. Let the play stand.

That said, nothing irks me more than an umpire who is not honest when he has made a mistake. If he tries to save face because the verballizaton was not loud enough to be proven definitively then his integrity comes into question.

Without integrity all is lost.

Now you learn from the situation, it should not happen again. This is really unavoidable.

Peace

Had another one tonight. High fastball, batter swings, pitch nicked the catcher's mitt and then hit me in the face mask. After it hit me I find my hands up signaling foul, so my brain must have thought it was also tipped. Or, it was a brain fart. I don't really know. I just know that the ruling was FOUL, because I had my hands up, no time to say anything. There was a runner on 1B at the time. No complaints, so maybe the call was not a brain fart, I honestly don't know. I just know I had my hands up.

" Rule 5-1-1h addresses a real world happening to correct the situation should an umpire make the mistake. The rule is specific and requires a VERBAL ANNOUNCEMENT.

If the umpire did not verbally state "foul ball' then no mistake has been made and nothing to correct. The hand signal, while in error, means nothing per this rule. Let the play stand. "




I would agree with you that 5-1-1h is VERY specific and does require verbal announcement. However, this same PU earlier in the game had signaled Foul with only his hands upraised on several very obvious foul balls ( haven't we all ? ). 5-1-1h makes no reference to only when it is not obvious do you verbalize. Since the PU did not verbalize the earlier obvious Foul Ball, is it still live? Of course not. But my point is, when observers saw his hands go up ( and again, I was behind the dugout and did not hear if he verbalized the foul or not ) they presumed he was making a foul ball call. That was the point of my question - if the PU blew it should he return the batter? I think you answered that in the end of your post ( as did others ).
And again my thanks to all for responding to my post. I got some very good insights.

mcrowder,

Yep, Georgia is one of the states which has removed the coaches avenue of protest, BB and SB. I think that was a bad move myself. I believe it was precipitated by a call in a football game a couple years back which stirred up some boogers!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]I agree "Brain farts" happen. But for the most part, it is a matter of training oneself to react properly. This comes from experience. Get into the proper position to see the play, take a second to understand what just happened, then react accordingly with your ruling.

I would say that the most difficult time is the screamer down the line, (fair/foul), two man system, partner in B or C and you look up and see batter.

Sometimes we have to sell guess's also.

Scary.

The football situation was a complete gaff. Football has never had procedures for coaches protesting rulings on the field that required replays, and Georgia put one in. It backfired on them badly. (I officiate football as well - so I'm familiar with the sitch)

However, baseball/softball ALWAYS has had these procedures. To remove them is an extreme overreaction.

On the FOUL call - one of my pet peeves is an umpire that calls it too early. A ball rolling foul (even 3 feet foul) is NOT foul until it hits something or is stopped. Too many umpires call it far too early. Every once in a while, one hits a little rock and starts heading back fair.

About 5 years ago on a VERY windy day I had a very smart 1B notice the ball slowing to a near stop, but not stopping, and the wind started to blow it back toward fair territory. (He was actually smart enough to look up at the runners before deciding not to pick it up). We had R2 and R1 at the time, and I did not call it foul. Batter was unmoved from the box, runners were camped on their bases as the ball rolled back fair. Easy Triple play. Batter was STILL in the box when he was called out for the 3rd out. (Actually, the team was probably very well coached all around, as F5 was standing on third base, ready for a throw, when many teams' thirdbasemen would have been lollygagging back to their normal positions)