I called two balks yesterday that I had never seen, but had read about on umpire forums in years past. It was a good thing, because it enabled me to better explain the balks to the coach, who did not think they were balks (I hope they were).

Balk #1: LHP comes set. Does a jump move and throws to 1st base. Pivot foot lands behind the rubber, non-pivot foot moves backwards and lands towards 3rd base. (Coach felt that because the pivot foot landed behind the rubber, the pitcher had legally stepped off.)

Balk #2: LHP comes set. Breaks his hands and begins a throwing motion towards 1st base while keeping both feet still. Then, as he is throwing to 1st base, he steps off the rubber with his pivot foot, which lands behind the rubber and backwards towards 3rd base. Non-pivot foot never moves. (Coach felt that because the pitcher had stepped off the rubber before letting go of the ball, he had legally stepped off.)

Both moves looked well practiced and were very quick. I had a great view from ‘B’ position to see the timing of the motions though.


[Edited by nickrego on Mar 19th, 2005 at 03:38 AM]

These sound like pretty akward balks. They're kinda hard to picture, but i'd like to know what you explained to the coach so i know why and what to say if i ever get one of these.

IF* you're going to explain to the coach, use the words from the rule book -- didn't step toward the base, made a motion and stopped (or started and stopped), didn't stop, etc. That's it. Period.


* -- Some would say not to explain the balk at all.

less is more
 

Very well put. Say as little as possible, but use as much of the rule book as possible.

Called a balk today and coach said would you explain to the kid what he did wrong??

I said, coach that's your job. Tell him don't turn his shoulders after coming to the set position.

Thanks
David

Re: less is more
 

I always tell the pitcher what he did wrong while I'm cleaning off the pitcher's plate and adjusting my indiclickercounter.

<font color=blue><i>Balk #1: LHP comes set. Does a jump move and throws to 1st base. Pivot foot lands behind the rubber, non-pivot foot moves backwards and lands towards 3rd base. (Coach felt that because the pivot foot landed behind the rubber, the pitcher had legally stepped off.)</i></font>

I'm having a hard time visualizing this move. I've even tried to act it out. A left-hander doing a "jump move" toward first just sounds weird. Usually, a "jump move" involves making a 180-degree (or more) turn with the body. Since a left-hander is <b>facing</b> first, I have a hard time visualizing his jump, or, <b>why</b> he would jump.

Did you mean that the LHP is throwing to <b>THIRD</b>?

The non-pivot foot landing toward 3rd while throwing to 1st seems like something only Gumby could do.

What balk rule has the pitcher in this move violated?

I'm not questioning your judgment - I'm just trying to figure out WHAT the pitcher did and WHAT you thought was wrong with it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 21st, 2005 at 01:21 AM]

I have to agree with David on this.. makes no sense on that first move.. Also seems to me the second one is legal as he stepped off before he threw. If the pivot foot was still in the air when he thrwos it, you have something but if it was truly as fast as you say it is then to me and what I am visulising I cannot see how. He has to break his hands before he throws over and if he is off before he throws then there is nothing wrong there. If he hesitated before he stepped off and after he broke his hands then I can see a balk there but again, they way you described it as beeing very quick I cannot see a balk for that either.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Mar 20th, 2005 at 02:24 AM]

Balk #1 makes absolutely no sense. But he did it. Why, I don't know. But he did, and I called it. He left both feet and landed as I described. He could have made a better move, with more on the ball by just lifting his non-pivot foot and stepping towards the base.

For largeone59,

Here is why they are balks...

Balk #1: When any kind of a jump move is made by the pitcher, both feet must land in front of the rubber, and the non-pivot foot must gain ground and direction towards the base being thrown to.

Balk #2: After coming set, a pitcher can only do three things. A) Deliver a pitch to the plate. B) Step towards and throw to a base, or feint if not 1st. C) Step off the rubber. In this balk, the pitcher broke his hands, began his throwing motion to 1st, and then stepped off. Not allowed. If he is going to step off, he must do it before beginning any throwing or pitching motion.

Re: Re: less is more
 

Guess some people cannot leave well enough alone.

Re: Re: less is more
 

I always tell the pitcher what he did wrong while I'm cleaning off the pitcher's plate and adjusting my indiclickercounter. [/B][/QUOTE]

I tried that once and ended up flat on my face. Falling over the excessively dirty pitching plate without taking my eye off my indiclickercounter between pitches is terribly difficult, let alone down right embarrassing. Then, getting up and trying to remember how the pitcher balked!!!

Im going to volleyball, all I have to do is toot and point.
Im done in 50 min and it's the same fee.

Re: Re: Re: less is more
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cowbyfan1

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser I always tell the pitcher what he did wrong while I'm cleaning off the pitcher's plate and adjusting my indiclickercounter.

Quote:

Guess some people cannot leave well enough alone.

Rich, my guess is you were just following what you were told by nameless pro-umpires at a major clinic in the midwest somewheres, huh? :D

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 20th, 2005 at 01:23 PM]

Hard to know where to start .....
 

Nick:
I agree that both of your sitches are [at least probably] balks. However, there are parts of your explanations to large I could not disagree with more.

The non-italicised part is correct [and the reason why this was probably a balk]: I don't know where the part I put in italics comes from. If F1 does his Mexican Jumping Bean act with his hands together, and lands with one foot in front and the pivot behind the rubber before he separates his hands: it seems to me that he has met the rule req's for "stepping off". Is there a Case Book play or manual reference I have forgotten?

'Course, Coach was wrong: if his hands separated before his pivot foot landed on the ground behind the rubber, then he did not "step off" prior to the pick attempt, and his stride foot must gain distance and direction toward the base, ot it's a balk. I am presuming that this is what happened, and why you correctly balked him.

The pitching motion part I'll give you, but the part about any step off has to be before F1 starts to throw to a base is just wrong. He can't hesitate or double-clutch, true: but it's not separately a balk if he steps back off the rubber. Coach is wrong here, again, stepping off AFTER separating his hands is no defense to failing to gain distance and direction. Your reason for this balk is adequately explained in the first post: "Non-piviot foot never moves"

Bob's advice is sound, to the extent you need to explain a balk, stick to words out of the Rule Book. Any time you need to resort to "interpretations" that are not near word-for-word out of the text, there is a better-than-even chance you will be wrong; either in the explanation or in calling the balk itself.

cowboy:

If he separates his hands [after coming set], THEN steps off, and never moves his stride foot, that's a balk. Always.

Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

The jump-step is considered to be a move from the rubber; it does not constitute a legal disengagement. The point being, if a pitcher executes a jump step towards 1B and does not throw, he has balked.

Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

True enough for a RHP and a feint to 1st.

This was a LHP, & he did throw.

My disagreement was with the "any kind of jump move.../ both feet MUST land in front of the rubber...." assertion. If a LHP "goes airborne" w/ both feet simultaneously, his pivot landing behind the rubber, it seems to me that he has probably "stepped off", as I am aware of no precedent to the contrary.

Just 'cause he "jumps" don't necessarily make it the kind of "jump-step" to which you are referring.

Re: Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

If he *jumps* then I don't think he's *stepped* off.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

OK, I'm willing to be convinced: is there any authority for the proposition that, in the circumstances we are discussing here, it makes a difference if he "steps" [one foot at a time], or "jumps" [both feet off the ground simultaneously]?

Again: LHP "jumps", pivot foot land behind the rubber, he does not separate his hands until after his feet are back on the ground. Any case plays or other precedent that this does NOT constitute "stepping off"?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

From the Casebook Comment to 8.01(a):

"In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first."

I'm not aware of any support in the authoritative literature for the interpretation that a jump off the rubber constitutes a proper disengagement. The only time jumping off the rubber is addressed is when the jump-spin move is described, which as I noted earlier is interpreted as a "from the rubber" move.

Geez, Dave: 8.01a is about the Windup, where BOTH feet are in contact w/ the rubber. This guy was in the set - only the pivot foot is in contact.

First you are telling me about a RHP who feints [this was a LHP who threw]; now this. Try posting something actually relevent, OK?

Re: Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

If the jump is part of his throwing motion - then it really doesn't matter WHERE F1's feet land. A pitcher is allowed to align his feet for a pickoff attempt, and that alignment, if begun while in contact with the rubber, is considered to have originated FROM the rubber - even if his pivot foot ends up off the rubber.

The most classic example of this is a RHP's jump move toward 1st. His pivot usually ends up in FRONT of the rubber. It could just as easily end BEHIND the rubber. It makes no difference. It's a throw FROM the rubber in both cases.

I still can't visualize what the pitcher in your example did. It sounds like he simply went into an epileptic fit. That would be a balk.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

FED 6-1-3 -- the reference to the jump turn is the same as "turning on the pivot foot" to throw to a base. Also, "he may lift his pivot foot in a STEP backward." Also, "AFTER the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground, he THEN has the right to throw or feint ... the same as any other infielder." (emphasis added)

Combine that with the "feint requires a step but does not require arm motion" language from some case play, and the fact that the non-pivot foot will move in a step toward the base, I think it's clear that the jump turn is a move toward a base no matter where the pivot foot lands.

Finallly, NCAA 9-1e AR "To 'step off' the pitcher's rubber, the pitcher must 1) step back off the rubber and 2) disengage the pivot foot before moving the free foot."

That said, once upon a time, I was taught as you were -- if the pivot foot is behnd the rubber, it's a disengagment; if the pivot foot end up in front of the rubber, it's not. I didn't know enough to ask for support for that position at the time; I've not seen any since.

Question: If (before this discussion, or still if you haven't changed your mind), F1 makes this jump turn and the pivot foot lands behind the runner and F1 throws the ball out of play, how many bases are you going to award?



[Edited by bob jenkins on Mar 21st, 2005 at 08:55 AM]

The pitching rules make no distinction between lefthanded or righthanded pitchers, and professional instruction in defining a proper disengagement makes no distinction between disengaging while in windup or set position.

I am, however, delighted for you to continue with the interpretation you have come up with. Have a nice day.

Guys, guys:

I have no problem with what y'all are saying about a jump-TURN. That is not the situation under consideration.

Again: assume a LHP, in the stretch, who came set;
who "jumped", but DID NOT TURN [he continued to face 1st];
his pivot foot landed behind the rubber; and
he threw to 1st.

Now, presuming that he did not separate his hands until AFTER his pivot foot was on the ground behind the rubber, why is it a balk that he "jumped" rather than "stepped"?

Ohhhhhhh!

I get it now. That's a <i>much</i> better explanation!

That is a <i>classic</i> move that is in most left-handers' arsenal.

It really doesn't involve "jumping", however.

To legally execute this move, the LHP's pivot foot must go <i>behind</i> the runner as the <i>first</i> movement. But it's lightning fast and, if done properly, it all looks rather simulataneous. The umpire should allow this move. It is extremely common.

I think what you're describing is the classic "snap throw" many left-handers use toward 1st. If you've never seen it before, it looks rather awkward because he never steps <i>toward</i> 1st with his free foot. Normally that would be illegal because a pitcher is <i>required</i> to step in the direction of the base <i>while in contact with the rubber</i>. But, since the pitcher <i>first</i> stepped off, that rule doesn't apply. He's an infielder!

The move looks a lot like a gunslinger making a quick draw.

If the pitcher doesn't make the throw, it should not be a balk because it's legal to fake a throw to 1st when disengaged from the rubber.

Still, I'm not sure if this is what the pitcher did. I'm still somewhat confused why the LHP needed to "jump."

If, in the umpire's opinion, the "jump" was intended to deceive the runner into thinking the pitcher was attempting to throw to a base for a pickoff attempt, and, his free foot did <i>not</i> move in the direction of the that base ... I would call that a balk.

If the pitcher just pops into the air like some kind of Mexican jumping bean, he better land with his free foot toward a base that is occupied. And if that base is 1st, he <i>better</i> make a throw.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 21st, 2005 at 02:28 PM]

Ick,
 

Insert Heavy -sigh- here:

" . . . both feet must land in front of the rubber,"

Yet another incorrect statement by an umpire.

Seems to me the fundamental issue here is the legal way to disengage the rubber. Most pitchers in the Set position disengage the rubber by simply stepping back with their pivot foot. The question is: can a pitcher disengage by jumping up in the air and then landing by straddling the rubber? No twisting, no turning, just jumping up with both feet and then landing with the back foot behind the rubber?

Since the rules and interpretations indicate that the only legal way to disengage is to STEP back, one could argue that the jump is not a legal way to disengage. For example, J/R states: It is a balk if a pitcher fails to disengage the rubber properly. Such pitcher is still in contact for the purpose of a subsequent throw. A pitcher can disengage properly only if he steps his pivot foot backward of and off the pitching rubber, and does so without interruption or hesitation.

Manny Aponte

Because the pitcher violated this:

Finallly, NCAA 9-1e AR "To 'step off' the pitcher's rubber, the pitcher must 1) step back off the rubber and 2) disengage the pivot foot before moving the free foot."


Thus, he hasn't stepped off. IF he hasn't stepped off, he must have made a motion to first or to home. Eiother is a balk.

Thanks, Bob. (2) says it pretty clearly. I don't do much NCAA [only Fall Ball], so I'm not as up on those rulings as I should be.

I'm presuming that your position is that in the absence of contrary authority: rule the same in FED and youth/OBR? I can live w/that.

Re: Hard to know where to start .....
 

I'll agree with you on that, if it is obvious that he did that. The way I read the original post the seperation of the hands, step off, and throw was done so quickly that I cannot see it being called a balk as the move was in an obvious move to first. It is like mentioned by Jessie and the other instructors at the camp I went to concerning the bend in the knee. The pitcher is going to slighlty bend the knee in making a move to a bag or the plate and that if there is no hesitation once the knee bends slightly and the rest of his move, to not call that a balk. If there is hesitation then nail it. In this case, if the time between the hands seperating and the "step off" is so minimal that it would be nit picking, digging for boogers or whatever other term you want to put on it. I would have to really see the move to really determine if I would call it a balk or not.

cudo's to Rich for telling the pitcher what he needs to improve upon. Let's face it, guys -- we're not at the Professional level of baseball -- we're at a level where the coaches, and certainly MOST players, do not always know the rules. Sure, it would be nice to have the coach explain what the rules are to the kids, but it's also incumbent upon Umpires, and those of us that love the game, to supply MUCH needed knowledge to these kids (and their coaches) to help them learn. Trust me, all of them gain a new respect for you if you're willing to impart your wisdom, notwithstanding the fact that we're making our sport much better by educating players and coaches on how the game should be played. Kids need encouragement, and helping them understand what they did wrong in a proactive, rational and non-defensive way allows them to respect the Umpire for his knowledge, and take away something from the game.

Sorry for the soap-box.

Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

" . . . but it's also incumbent upon Umpires, and those of us that love the game, to supply MUCH needed knowledge to these kids (and their coaches) to help them learn."

-------------------------------------

I'm sorry I am an umpire and not a rat.

I'll stick to umpiring.

One doesn't have to be a professional umpire to realize he isn't a coach. I don't know what level you work, but if you were to attempt "to supply MUCH needed knowledge" to any players in any games I work, you'd have a coach on your a$$ for the rest of the game and your partner on your a$$ after the game. Your job is to umpire, not coach. If you have a burning desire to coach, become one.

Re: Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

Maybe you're a <i>ratty</i> umpire. (g)

I've met a few of them in my time.

I <i>never</i> instruct players or coaches during a game ... unless they ask. And I <i>am</i> a coach!

When I coach, I don't even allow the umpire to update my relief pitcher as to the situation. I interrupt him and say, "I got it, Blue." And then <i>I</i> tell him.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Re: Re: Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

I hope that you very seldomly have to do that.

Re: Re: Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

People need to step off their pedistals around here. Garth and Tim I would agree with you if you are calling high school and above. Below that, probably 80-90% of the time, the umpire is the only one on the field knowledgable enough to say what happened and why. These games usually have time limits and to explain to a coach who then in turn tries to explain to the kid what he did takes too long. I don't tell a high school or college pitcher what he did. If a coach asks it tell him, short and to the point. "No set", "distance and direction", "stop and start", etc. Keep in mind that it is a whole different world calling ball below the high school level. One that appearently you have forgotten since you think your big time.

Re: Re: Re: Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

Nothing big time about doing your job correctly, regardless of your level.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wrong, (simply another LL answer)
 

Exactly. We train our LL umpires to do nothing different than if we were training HS umpires. Set expectations low and the results will reflect that.

Gee cowboyfan,
 

Again, I have never nor will I ever work small diamond baseball.

Much like you when I make a balk call I explain it from the center of the diamond with a quick statement EXACTLY as you intone in your post.

I don't coach on the field, I umpire.

I have talked with 6 guys who DO DO Little League in my area and NONE of them coach on the field.

If you think I am "big timing it" so be it . . . I just umpire correctly.