I had plate the other night with 2 outs and close play @ 1B. BU is set, sees the play, then yells "FOOT" and points to me.

Is this the proper way to ask for help? I expect to be pointed at for help, not "FOOT" yelled at me.

I was @ the 45-foot line and did indeed have a pulled foot, but this confused the defense..."What did he say?" and they started trotting off the field.

In pre-game I said 'look' to me for help on a foot-pull.

Umpires yelling anything other than SAFE, OUT, or other calls that players need to hear is probably a bad mechanic. But regardless of the mechanic you and your partner decide to use, make SURE you are exactly on the same page regarding how you are going to do it - sounds like you thought you were going in, until it came time to actually do it. :)

Another reason this should be a look, and not a yell, is - once coach sees this once, if he hears you do it again and you (PU) DON'T have the call (perhaps there was other items more directly your responsibility that you were watching), coach will be irate that you "missed" the pulled foot (whether there was one or not!)

The mechanic that I, and my guys, use is for BU, when unsure about a possible pulled foot, to glance quickly at PU. If PU has seen a pulled foot, he's got his hands near his sides, pointing out (sort of a mini-safe-signal). If he either has an out, or did not see the play, he does nothing. This way, BU makes the call relatively seamlessly and coaches are not alerted to anything at all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BayouUmp
[B]I had plate the other night with 2 outs and close play @ 1B. BU is set, sees the play, then yells "FOOT" and points to me.

Is this the proper way to ask for help? I expect to be pointed at for help, not "FOOT" yelled at me.

I was @ the 45-foot line and did indeed have a pulled foot, but this confused the defense..."What did he say?" and they started trotting off the field.

In pre-game I said 'look' to me for help on a foot-pull.





Did he have the base is what I say. Or do you have a tag if there's a swipe tag. In either case there's a delayed call by the base umpire. It's the defenses's problem if they're confused. After you gave him the answer did he call the runner safe?

As the PU, I prefer a little different signal to send to the BU. We agree, before the game, that if he is unsure he can glance at me briefly before he makes his call. If I have an out, I have my right fist clenched discreetly on my thigh, much like an out or strike signal. This assures him from my vantage point half way up the line that the foot was there. He can then determine if the ball beat the runner or vice-versa. This applies only if he questions the 1st baseman's foot off the bag. Otherwise, the call is his. In either case, I back him up on his call.
Anything you agree on ahead of time will work - short of yelling out " foot ".
We have repeatedly been advised to minimze those extracurricular hand signals as many coaches try to pick them up and then put you on the spot. If I can move one hand instead of two, I feel like I have a better shot at hiding it from the coach.

With all of the guys that I've worked with including a number who went to professional umpire schools and all of the camps and clinics that I've attended and I've been to the Jerry Davis umpiring clinic twice I've never heard of hand signals being used between the base umpire and the plate umpire when it comes to a pulled foot or swipe tags at first base. I've been asked for help verbally and I've asked for help verbally and the defense is never confused. And so what if the coaches know that you as base umpire asked for help on a pulled foot.Asking for help is the proper mechanic. Done properly there's a second or two delay when you make your call. Hey if I'm wrong refer me to a recognized source that hand signals are the proper mechanic.

It's your job and it's a proper mechanic for the plate umpire to be coming down the line to answer the question concerning a pulled foot or swipe tage. You provide the answer to the question and the base umpire makes the call. Why are you hiding this from the coach? There's nothing to hide. I don't know what level of ball you work (Not putting you down or trying to insult you don't misundertand me) but if you do high school varsity on up the Coaches know that it's the plate umpires job to provide assistance for a pulled foot or on a swipe tag. If BR is called out and the Coach thinks he's safe he's going to be all over BU saying he should get help from PU. How are you going to explain this? Are you going to tell him you gave a hand signal? Do you think he's going to believe you?

[Edited by gordon30307 on Feb 23rd, 2005 at 04:00 PM]

Hmmm,
 

Secret Signals NEVER remain secret.

Please do not use any type closed fist signal. In Big Boy ball you will eventually be found out and it will make life heck for both you and your pards.

Once again, follow up the line and be ready to help. Do not insert yourself into the play until asked (if asked) then react.

NEVER have a secret signal.

I guess I just killed this dead horse further.

I'm not sure where we came up with this idea of hand signals. I'm not sure why we don't just verbalize it ( when asked ). Obviously we do when requested from our partners. I know there are more than a few who do use these kinds of signals ( see mcrowder's post ). I will check with our association and see if I can come up with an answer and if necessary, change away from them.
Now I have a question for you. With all the experience you have with those who have gone to professional umpire schools and all the camps and clinics you have attended - including twice to the Jerry Davis umpiring clinic - why would you have to come to this forum with a question about someone yelling " foot " and looking to you for a response? Even a lowly official like myself knows that is improper mechanics (Not putting you down or trying to insult you don't misunderstand me).
Just curious.

Up here in Ct we use our newly designed Indaclickercounter WalkieTalkie/PDA/Cell phone with the head set attachment. The coaches have agreed not to ask us why we keep talking to our hand, as long as we get the call right.

Most of the coaches know that I don't use one, so when they see me still talking to my hand they think somethings really weird about me and are afraid say anything to me. Works real good.

You got to be careful though if you got the dish and the earpiece volume is too high and you miss a pitch. Your partner is ragging you in one ear, and the catcher in the other. Quick headaches.

I can't wait to be at 1B on a check swing and have my partner yell out "Did he Go", Im going to signal safe and at the same time tell him "No",,,then quietly into my indaclic......phone, "But he should have".

Better yet, signal strike and say "No, but it caught the corner."

NO. IT IS NOT! Gawd.

I feel obliged to mention that the right answer is for the base umpire to get his a$$ into position and get the call right himself.

There's your answer..

My comment to the BU after the game on this sit, was "Go ahead and make the call, and if coach wants you to get help from me, then get it".

I just felt that yelling "Foot" was just like saying "He's safe, right?" Well, if you think he's safe why you yelling?

Obviously...clear communication is the key. Thanks everyone.

And
 

I agree with Rich . . .

As a BU, in this situation in over 3,600 games I have NEVER even considered asking for help.

I work hard and get my own calls.

Wow,
Well I certainly haven't worked over 3600 games. I just read the FED Umpires Manual. When it says
" On the ground ball hit to the infield, head towards first base, either down the running lane or on the infield grass. Try to get at least 10 to 15 feet from home plate, the farther the better, but stop in time to watch the play at first. This initial hustle shortens the distance to where the action is. It also gives you a better vantage point from which to see runner infractions. Sometimes what starts as a routine play develops into a difficult situation for the base umpire. If the plate umpire has moved properly, he will be where he can see what is happening and be of assistance to his partner, if his help is requested. "( page 14, Item VI.,15 ), it certainly wasn't written for Tee because he NEVER needs help at 1st in that situation.
If the situation couldn't arise, FED wouldn't cover it.
I can tell you it was written for me because I may need help - and I will certainly ask for help if I need it because I want to make the RIGHT call. My ego isn't that big that I think I can't make a mistake or miss a call. Someday I'll be that good - I hope.

I realize that Tee is just simply a much better umpire than the rest of us, but I'm absolutely amazed that in 3600 games, there has NEVER been an errant throw that brought the fielder into a position where he's stretching directly toward Tee, thus obscuring his view of F3's foot. What an amazingly lucky umpire.

Positioning is HUGE, but there will ALWAYS eventually be events that are unviewable, even from the perfect vantagepoint.

I guess the PU in Tee's games don't have to get down the line at all - they will never be needed. What a relief for them.

Why make it personal . . .
 

mr & OfficalTony:

I just move and lean as taught at professional school.

Pro school graduates are hounded "get your own calls" . . .

As a PU I always follow up the line to give help.

I think that it is simply a play that a BU is paid to make and there is no problem making it.

Rich Froneheiser and I have spoke about this for a number of years.

Why would you even assume that I don't "make the right call" . . . neither OfficalTony or you have ever seen me work. Why would you guys jump to the conclusion that a BU can't get the call right from the beginning.

I just don't understand why a BU needs help on a basic call.

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 24th, 2005 at 10:12 AM]

BU needs help on that call when the ball is not thrown perfectly and the fielder gets in the sightline between you and his own foot. It happens. To say it never does is frankly ridiculous.

Now perhaps because you are so much better than the rest of us, it happens more infrequently for you than us (perhaps the level of games you work is higher). But it DOES happen. To me, you saying it has NEVER happened tells me that on the 5-10 times it DID happen to you, your ego refused to allow you to ask for help. I may be reading more into that than there is ... but that's the way it comes across.

I would say I ask for help on that call at most 1-2 times a year. But it's good to have a mechanic that works for you and your partner when it does. Back to the original post, "FOOT!" is horrible.

I agree when you're in the A position you should see this, but when you're in B or C you might need help on the swipe tag and pulled foot.

True - problem I've had at times is that occasionally if BU is in B or C, PU has other responsibilities and cannot be looking at BR.

Tony, I didn't have the question about someone yelling foot. Reading is a skill ( Not trying to insult you). The mechanic that you are using is wrong. If you know that it is improper why do you use it?

Re: Why make it personal . . .
 

Tee,

Never been to any of the Pro schools but I am well aware of the "Get the call yourself" mechanic you and Rich have mentioned. For my own purposes, from the "B" or "C" positions, with the play at first being the second play by the infield, and the throw coming from around 3b, what is the footwork required to get oneself in position to make that call, CLEARLY.

Also, it is taught in the Pro schools however, I truly believe that most of officials that visit here are not, or have not attented them or work the Pro's. And if it is such a well accepted mechanic, why are almost all of the other manuals showing otherwise?

Finally, is this part of the old Pro philosophy that you handle your calls and I will handle mine, never the two shall meet. Live and die with it baby!

I am not choosing sides here, I'm just always trying to improve.

Again you make it personal,
 

" . . . Now perhaps because you are so much better than the rest of us, . . . "

I have never said I am better than everyone else. I have simply made a statement that ALL umpires that have went to professional school are taught and live by . . .

In all my games I really don't remember a manager coming out to even argue with me on this exact situation.

I think you have confused what you feel is arrognace with what I feel is good training and hard work.

Sorry you need to keep getting personal with me.

Like Rich, I feel a base umpire can make this call every time with training and hustle.

Can we simply agree to disagree?

Hmmm,
 

jicecone:

You asked:

"For my own purposes, from the "B" or "C" positions, with the play at first being the second play by the infield, and the throw coming from around 3b, what is the footwork required to get oneself in position to make that call, CLEARLY."

Let's just make one simple decision to make this common mechanincs. However the play has happened and where ever the runners started you want me to cover the play at first as second play with the throw coming from F5's area.

Great start:

I began the play in either "B" or "C".

There was a call made at either second or third base which moved me towards that base and then the ball got to the F5 area. It really isn't imporant how it got these to answer your question.

As F5 starts the throwing motion I am somewhere around the mound (can't say exactly as we don't know how the play occurred);

Many things start happening in my mind at this time:

I quickly read F5's intentions, I recognize that there are (or could be) other runners on the bases whewre F5 may shift his attention to them . . .

After pausing and reading I start a drift towards the correct angle (remember, angle over distance) to make the play if the throw is a good throw (I assume that the fielder will make a good) . . .

Since I am still watching the fielder as I drift I know read a second action -- the quality of the throw . . .

As the throw starts to pass me I turn and become set (most of the time I have made some distance but mostly angle) NEVER having taken my eyes from the ball.

As the ball nears F3 I shift my view down F3 body towards his feet (this is the first indication of a bad throw as we'll see F3 shifting) . . .

Continuing to read F3 I then take (at most) a half step to adjust my angle THEN if there is a problem I lean (right or left) while watching F3's foot . . .

I then listen for the ball hitting the glove, and watch the fielder's foot and for the runners foot touching the base.

When the ball is complete I make my call.

I agree that most umpires that work non-professional games are held to a different set of expectations. I am answering first for me and then for umpires that need further training.

Can an umpire get "straight lined"? Sure.

Could I have possibly been "straight lined"? Sure.

If I WAS "straight lined" would I ask for help? . . . don't know, can't answer honestly but I would hope that I would have the call (in my heart) and make the call.

In closing, have I ever been trapped clear over in "C" and made a long distance call at first in a situation where there is (or is not) a pulled foot? Sure.

And I made my call with the information I had at the time.

Thanks Tee,

I kind of had your answer in mind before I asked but, I think it should be helpful to all.

Actually the pulled foot is easier to detect than the tag, and I'm assuming that you have asked for help in those situations. Either way, thanks

Re: Hmmm,
 

Can an umpire get "straight lined"? Sure.

Could I have possibly been "straight lined"? Sure.

If I WAS "straight lined" would I ask for help? . . . don't know, can't answer honestly but I would hope that I would have the call (in my heart) and make the call.


I don't understand why wouldn't you ask for help?

In closing, have I ever been trapped clear over in "C" and made a long distance call at first in a situation where there is (or is not) a pulled foot? Sure.

And I made my call with the information I had at the time.

What if your information is wrong and your partner clearly saw the pulled foot? Why guess. As the plate umpire with a runner on first I'm rotating to cover third. As I move down the line I have the perfect angle to see the pulled foot. With runners on first and second or a runner on second I'm staying home to cover the plate. I can easily position my self to see the touch of third and to help with the pulled foot at first. Hey I'm your partner I don't understand why you wouldn't come to me if help were needed.

Last season I had to ask for help one time (just worked out that way). I was in the b or c and with a swipe tag at first I was 95% sure I had a tag, but, just to be certain I went to my partner at the plate and he confirmed what I saw and I banged him. Offensive Coach comes out I told him just what I related above and my partner confirms and he turns around and goes back to coaching third.





[/B][/QUOTE]

In closing,
 

I admit freely to being an old timer.

I admit freely that the new concept "of get the call right no matter what" has been hard for me accept.

I also admit freely that after games when asking partners (and you know partners they NEVER tell you the truth) if I nailed the specific call they have always replied, "yes!"

gordon I believe that in EVERY play I had enough and proper information to make the call . . . if you were in "C" and there was a pickoff at third and you couldn't see the tag . . . would you ask the PU for help?

I know my answer to that one . . .

Re: In closing,
 

Hey Tim as the field guy the only mechanic I know of where it's proper to ask for help is at first. Obviously I'll live and die with my call elsewhere. The proper mechanic is for the plate guy to be prepared to help his partner. Now if I were working with you I'd be prepared to help, but, if you don't want it I've got no problem with you living and dieing with whatever call you make. And if asked you gotta help him on this one my answer would be "I'm sure my partner got it right. If he needed my input he would have asked." In terms of getting the call right if the boys in blue in the show have adopted this philosophy who am I to argue that it's wrong.

I didn't mean to get personal, at least not in an insulting way. The "better than us" was not sarcasm. Obviously, you have been to more training than most of us, and you have worked more games than most of us. You are probably working higher level games than most of us, which in turn probably means less bad-throws or straightlining.

But it DOES happen, as I'm sure you agree.

I may try the leaning technique you mention above to see if it helps - I've been taught in the past to be as still as possible at the critical moment. I'll see if a lean helps me get an angle on the foot without causing too much head movement.

My question, though, is this - if you KNOW you are straightlined, or because of other action may not have the best angle, what motivates you to make a call (perhaps the call you have in your heart) without help when you are aware that you may not have all the information, and you are aware that the missing information is available if you would only ask.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but the motivation that gives you the confidence to make that call, is experience. Seeing the situation in front of you enough times, that you just KNOW your right. Can this lead to arrogance, you bet. That is the fine line ALL good officials have to walk, all the time.

Once you achieve this plateau of confidence through experience, well it just does'nt enter your mind that "you may not have all the information". You know you do.

Over the years I have joined Tee and Rich in their position on this issue and have shared in some of the catigation from certain interntet umpires.

After spending a week at the Desert Classic last November, I came home even more convinced of the correctness of our position and it is NOT about "you get yours I'll get mine." It IS possible to avoid being straightlined and to avoid a crap throw from causing you grief.

From my experience the primary reasons people have problems accepting Tee position on this is that they: 1. Forget to read the quality of the throw prior to coming set for the play. 2. If they even bother to check the throw, they fail to move or lean or both as the throw would dictate to see the play.

This is not the "impossible dream" so many internet umpires sing about. One can work that play without needing help.

[Edited by GarthB on Feb 24th, 2005 at 02:01 PM]

Ok, I'm going to start by apologizing to EVERYBODY.

My level of expertise is limited to High School Varsity baseball and BELOW. I do not do college. I do not do minor league. And I certainly do not go to the big show. I came to the site with my questions and input because I thought we were all amateur umpires and we could share ideas, interpretations, and expectations. I am not in the same league as many of you. So my experience really doesn't ( can't ) count for much. I didn't realize that there were professionals on this site. I will again apologize to you. You have paid your dues and earned the repect that I should be giving you. I only hope that you will indulge my future posts and know that I look to you for honest experienced feedback and nothng more. Please accept my apologies. I want to learn to be better. I want to have the confidence that you exude. I want my calls to be natural and right because I did everything right to get me to that call. I will learn that thru experience and the input I hope to get from now on - with my eyes wide open.

Once again, accept my apologies for not understanding.

I am most sincere with this post.

And thank you in advance for your patience on my future posts.

Side note to gordon30307.
My apologies. You are correct. It was not your post and you did not deserve the comments.

Please read my previous note.

And please accept my apologies.


Thanks to all.

Hi Tony,

I'm not a professional I do JUCO and High School Varsity and during the summer some wood bat leagues that consist of present and past D1 college players ex minor leaguers etc. No problem Tony have a good season.

WOW....3600 games never kicked a call at 1B. Tee you're my hero.

Mike

OfficialTony: VERY LONG
 

Over the years on the Internet I have been called arrogant, saracastic, cocky, conceited, bombastic and self indulgent.

I am all of that and more (with heartfelt apology to Howard Cosell).

By good fortune (and being old) I have been blessed by having great umpire friends suck as Nck Bremigan and John McSherry. I have been trained by people as different as Gary Darling and Dale Scott to Joe Brinkman and Mike Winters.

I was lucky to be able to work major college baseball when it wasn not as NEARLY difficult to get your break as it is now.

The same goes for working MLB spring training in the old days when if you hung around you'd get asked.

The one thing I am is never bashful about saying the "way things outta be . . ." and MOST the time I am pretty close to being right.

We deal with a difficult situation on the internet.

Because OBR does not have a Case Book and the only official interpretations come from the MLB League office we have only items such as the NAPL Manual (official rulings at the Milb level), the MLB Redbook, Jaksa/Roder and the JEA.

This means that not all umpires have equal access to information

So what we get down to are what are called "Authorative Opinions" . . . and that falls into the eyes of the beholder.

We can discuss items like "unrelaxed/relaxed" and give opinion but we really are only doing the umpire version of the "hot stove league".

There are guys such as Bob Jenkins, Carl Childress, Rich Froneheiser, Dave Hensley an d a handful of others that have at their fingertips inportant reference documents and good crisp thinking. These are people that know, understand and can explain the rules of the game.

At the FED level we do have rules book case book and umpire manual but we find that indivdual areas have indivdual umpires that simply "set aside" rules they do not like.

Here's what I am getting at:

Half the issue of internet communication is establishing the versimiltitude of the poster so you can see what they say has value. Experienced people who post here have established there own style and proven their knowledge.

When new posters come on they usually get tested (I know I did when I joined boards eight years ago) and some pass and some do not.

Baseball boards are far different that either football or basketball boards and I think the general membership are also different.

I am simply an umpire that, through good luck, has had a solid career.

I work hard at all parts of my game, I train umpires just as hard as I was trained and post here with that same attitude.


fwUmp, never said I never kicked a call . . . I've kicked my share, and yours I'm sure.

I want to make sure I understand your post. Are you saying based upon what you have seen in the past even though you are reasonably sure (not 100%) you are correct you wouldn't go to your partner for help? My question to you would be why is there a mechanic in a two man system where the plate umpire is required to help the base umpire with plays at first? If I'm misunderstanding your post please clarify.

<b>Over the years on the Internet I have been called arrogant, saracastic, cocky, conceited, bombastic and self indulgent.
</b>

You forgot egotistical, know-it-all, annoying, self-important, delusional, and most importantly: dangerous, as in "the most dangerous umpire on the internet."

Tee,

I failed at my entry level test in your eyes I am sure.
Please don't judge me too harshly.
Can we start over and just let me try as the new poster again?
I am anxious to pick your proverbial brains as I grow in experience and knowledge.

<b>My question to you would be why is there a mechanic in a two man system where the plate umpire is required to help the base umpire with plays at first?</b>

The plate umpire is REQUIRED to help the base umpire?

REQUIRED? What if he doesn't ask? Do you run out and yell, "no, no, I've got a pulled foot."

You do that around here and you'll end up with something else pulled.



[Edited by GarthB on Feb 24th, 2005 at 03:21 PM]

Hey Tee, I do basketball as well and was doing a game with a new guy. When we were done he thanked me for the advice and I told him all I'm doing is passing on to you what I was taught by others. The point is every now and then I pick up something from a grizzled veteran such as yourself that I can use and I pass it on to the next guy when asked.

You have an interesting way of handling calls at first when trouble arises as per previous posts and obviously this has worked for you in the past not sure I agree but I'll give it more thought.

I now know what it is like to conduct a White House press briefing, where the word "and" is taken to have 25 meanings, with hidden undertones.

Just as experience gains you confidence, it can also help in discerning doubt. In those situations, I would have no problems in doing whatever it takes to make the right call. If that means following the mechanic you speak of, so be it.

Sooo,
 

Gordon:

Do you agree that if you BU calls the guy OUT! at first that there is no way that help can be asked for or given?

Tee

No, I didn't know what you meant. I did read, however, what you said.

Now that I understand what you meant, the answer is easy. The mechanic exists so that the PU can offer help IF the BU needs it. Nothing there that contradicts Tee's thinking and practice. He simply hasn't needed the help.

Re: Sooo,
 

Yes.

Please tell me why there would be no way you would go to PU for help if the Coach asks.

Also, would it be a different scenario if your call was safe and the defensive coach asks you to go to the PU for help?

Is it because you are sure of the call?

If so, does this call for an ejection if either Coach makes a huge ( I mean HUGE ) issue out of you not going to the PU?

I am learning.

Thanks.

Tony, Paisan!

It is customary that if one is going to acknowledge that he wants help he should get it prior to making the call. Understandable?

Get all the information you need BEFORE making the call, then make your call.

When you make a call, you're telling everyone you've got the information you need for a decision and here it is.


[Edited by GarthB on Feb 24th, 2005 at 11:54 PM]

Tony,
Softball umpires will tell you you should get help when the coach asks, even after a call. (I guess it's supposed to be a kinder, gentler world there.)

Don't let them confuse you. Listen to Garth & Tee.

I'm the Butthole on the softball board who says get it before or not at all. Really stirs them up sometimes.

Roger

If you ask for help because the coach asked you to he will be like a jack in the box on every close call for the rest of the game, and for every one of his future games. If you made a call, safe or out, you must have felt sure about it so there is no need to ask your partner, and yes, if he makes a HUGE deal out of it, get rid of him.

The way I was taught is that if you are sure the ball beat the runner, but not sure if the fielder came off the bag ask the PU for help, before making a call. A simple point and question "was he on the bag?" should suffice, but while you are saying it your mind should be saying to you "if he was on the bag he is out", otherwise you would have called him safe. It has not happened very often either when I am on bases or plate, but the possibility is mentioned in pregame every time.

Great advice from all.
Thank you.
It all makes good sense.
I don't want jack in the boxes.
I like the philosophy, that I have made the call because I have all the information I need.
And that I don't make the call until I do.
Thanks for the information.

The FED manual goes into the trash the minute it arrives. Once it has the base umpire taking the BR into third on a bases empty triple like it should, I'll refrain from throwing it out.

I've asked for help once in 15 seasons. It was when a fielder ran in front of the first baseman making a play and I had no idea whether a tag was applied. A truly third world play. But on anything normal: Read, react, get in position (which means getting an angle, not running straight towards first base), get set, make the call.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 25th, 2005 at 02:08 AM]

No, because you ADJUST to the errant throw by reading it and getting a good angle. Sometimes it's a step or two, sometimes it's a lean, but I never, NEVER think that someone's going to bail me out. I might as well give him my check after the game is over.

The plate umpire follows down the line for reasons having nothing to do with pulled feet, swipe tags, and other squirrels. There could be interference or the ball could get away and the PU needs to be in position to do his job.

I've been asked many times for help in games from LL through HS varsity. Without fail, the umpire asking for help is hopelessly out of position. If the umpire is still on the third base side of the mound when making a call at first (or asking help) he hasn't moved and worked to get into position. Step up, turn, RUN using cross teps and work to get an ANGLE. The proper angle is 90 degrees to the throw, or usually towards the 45' line -- how can a throw come "right towards an umpire" if the umpire is getting the right angle?

Reading a throw is a critical skill I don't see many umpires make. A last second step, lean, and look can make the difference between making the right call and not making the right call. The thing that disturbs me is that many umpires don't even try. They take the field with the attitude that the plate umpire is standing on the field holding a blankie that the base umpire can grab onto. I had to bail a guy out last season that was closer to third base than to the mound on a routine ground ball to short with a runner on second base.

See, I am always in position to give help. Tee would say the same thing because we've had this conversation in person. I don't take any partner for granted. But I'd probably not expect to be asked if Tee was my partner. Or Garth. Or people that I have faith in....

I am always glad to show someone the door if that's what's necessary. But it's not necessary in the realm of trained coaches.

Tee,

Excellant reply and I agree with all you say. My response was toungue-in-cheek. I was trying to be ironic. Actually I agree with most of your opinions and respect your level of experience and expertise. And I understand the idea you were expessing on your "3600" games reply and I agree. Its just hard not to respond to bombastic statements. I meant no dis-respect.

Mike

[/B][/QUOTE]

The plate umpire follows down the line for reasons having nothing to do with pulled feet, swipe tags, and other squirrels. There could be interference or the ball could get away and the PU needs to be in position to do his job.

Beg to differ with you on this. Plate umpire goes down the 1B line when BU is in A position for the following reasons:

Possible pulled foot and swipe tag. Why you say this is not a reason is beyond me.
Possible interference as per above.
Possible Obstruction.
Possible tag by a fielder first 45 feet up the line.
Ball getting away as per above.
Rule on fair or foul on a bunt up the first base line.
And most importantly if the BU should slip and fall, get "tangled up" with fielder and or runner because of an errant throw or somehow is unable to take BR into second and possibly third base PU will now be able to do this (simialar to doing one man mechanics) and BU will have time to recover in order to cover the plate if necessary.

Sorry,
 

Gordon:

There is no such thing as "one man mechanics" . . .

Respectfully, I also have never seen or even heard of the BU getting trapped as you have listed.

Now we did, long ago, do the mirror thingy that if the BU felt pressure and went foul that the PU would cover inside (i.e. mirroring)and lead the play to second base if necessary.

I agree with Rich's statement in basic terms . . . the PU following up the line has many, many more things more important than helping on a swipe tag or pulled foot. (Actually a pulled foot would not even make my radar as a PU).

And most importantly if the BU should slip and fall, get "tangled up" with fielder and or runner because of an errant throw or somehow is unable to take BR into second and possibly third base PU will now be able to do this (simialar to doing one man mechanics) and BU will have time to recover in order to cover the plate if necessary.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I can't believe what I just read. THIS is the most important reason for PU to come up the line?

One man mechanics?

Gordon, I'm truly not trying to be a a##Hole critic here, but take the advise of others here and strive to get the call yourself, and you will find, that that same hustle, will help improve many parts of your officiating experience.

I can't believe what I just read. THIS is the most important reason for PU to come up the line?

One man mechanics?

Gordon, I'm truly not trying to be a a##Hole critic here, but take the advise of others here and strive to get the call yourself, and you will find, that that same hustle, will help improve many parts of your officiating experience.

You have never ever ever....... done a game by yourself? You've never had a partner get hurt and be unable to continue, go to the wrong field or simply not shown up. If this is the case you are truly blessed. In my neck of the woods most Freshman games are done with one umpire. Many summer tournament games are done with one umpire and virtually all Summer League High School regardless of level is done with one umpire. And yes there is something called One man Mechanics. And out of necessity you better know how to do a game by yourself. Give me a fax number and I'd be happy to dig this info. out and fax it to you. Concerning sophmore it's not unusual do a game by yourself. And yes as the PU you better be prepared as the plate umpire to take the BR to second and beyond in the unlikely event BU can't do this for the reasons described. And yes it's of utmost importance that the bases be covered.

And of course you try to get the call yourself, but, if you can't that's why you have a partner.

Re: Sorry,
 

Hmmm,
 

Not only have I never done a game as a one man, I never would do a one man.

IF my partner was injured or did not show I would give the teams a process that we could cancel the game or use a volunteer from the crowd. (I have worked professional games, as the volunteer under this request).

If there was no one from the crowd I would select a player from each team to umpire (again this has been done at the lower levels of professional baseball at various times) each would be the BU when their team was on defense.

One more point, varsity baseball games in many areas cannot be played without two umpires: league, state and insurance rules control that issue.

Gordon . . . there is no such thing as one man mechanics.

In closing, I would not work with a one man crew. Period.

I work under FED rules in all my games (even summer Legion) and I am sure they would agree it is a potential safety issue. (That's my stroy and I'm sticking to it).



[Edited by Tim C on Feb 25th, 2005 at 12:34 PM]

Gordon wrote:

"Had a liner down the line and I was behind the 1B who was on the grass by the time I recovered BR was two thirds of the way down the line. My partner took BR to second and I covered the dish."

Sure that happens, it is just part of "going out" and staying out.

It does not appear to me, probably a reader error on my part, that this has anything to do with your original play of getting run over by a runner or fielder.

Again, none of us are saying a PU does not have "some" responsibilites when heading for the 45' spot on the first base line . . . many of us just feel that helping the BU with his call is not high on our list of priorities.

I will admit that I have had to do some games by myself but not any games that really meant anything. The mechanics I use are simple. If I get a good look at it, I make a good call. If I don't, I make a good call. If anyone has a problem with these mechanics then they are either asked to go home ORRRR, do the mechanics theirself.

In any event Gordon, we are discussing , normal basball games with normal conditions here. If you want to cover every abnormalty , well, Im otta here!!!!!!!!!

Re: Hmmm,
 

You're fortunate that you have the luxury or process that requires two umpires. In my neck of the woods this is not the case. Over the years I've done perhaps a half dozen varsity games by myself. To my knowledge there are no insurance issues with respect to this. As long as the game is regularly scheduled this is not a problem as per the Rep. from NASO. Had I refused to do the game I would be in a world os s***. I honestly can't think of a reason why I wouldn't do the game solo. Also, to my knowledge, there's nothing in the Rule Book that says you must have two umpires or the game can't be played.

Re: Re: Hmmm,
 

There is where I live. Two umpires are required at EVERY level.

Just for the record, I do more games by myself than I do with a partner. We have one high school here in CT that WILL NOT pay for two umpires for anything but Varsity.

Most of my summer and tournament games are one umpire, until the tournament gets near the end that is.

That's just the way it is...

Me, Too
 

All the select/travel ball that I have worked in Northern Illinois only use one umpire; it's solely the home team's prerogative as to how many blues they will pay. Notable exceptions are the USSSA-type tournaments.

(And I guess T is saying he can't stand working with himself either http://www.officialforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif.)

Well, have to admit that I've done more than a few games, both big-boy & short-diamond, solo. I have always preferred to pull in a volunteer to call the bases, but occasionally that was not possible; or [in one memorable DH] the volunteer was so useless in game 1 that I really PREFERRED to do game 2 solo. [Yes, that was 2 full summer games back-to-back behind the plate]

"One-man mechanics" has to be, I'm sorry, a joke.
My "mechanics" for solo games begins and ends at the plate meeting:

"OK, guys, obviously I'm by myself today. I'll hustle as much as I can to get a good look at all plays, but the fact is, I'm gonna be calling some close ones from at least 90' away. If anybody is going to have a problem with that, now's the time to say so, & we'll call the game off & have it rescheduled. Otherwise, we're all going to do our best and have some fun, OK? Let's play some baseball."

After that, I do what I have to to be in as good a position as I can to cover whatever happens, but, really, it's all improvisation.

Our assn. solved the "too cheap to pay for 2 umps" problem by charging so much for teams that insisted on a single umpire that our proposed fee for a full crew made it obvious that the "savings" was false economy.

We get decent fees, too: Regular season 2-man Babe Ruth [WITH a time limit] pays $50 per ump: HS & Legion generally higher.

For one reason or another, I end up doing 3 or 4 games a year by myself. No big deal in my book.

One of the best games I have had in the past couple of years was one my assignor called and asked if I could do at the last minute. He called at 2:00 and game time was 4:00. I showed up not knowing who my partner was supposed to be, and at game time a partner had not arrived. This was a varsity HS game between two private schools. I offered options to the coaches at the plate conference. We can wait for my partner to arrive, I can start and maybe end the game alone, or we could call it off and they could play another day. They opted to start the game. It was a 2-1 game, lasted 1 hour 20 minutes, the home team wrote me a check for $85. I only had one tough call, a steal of 2B that was close. Partner never showed up.

I would like to comment on this. I only read the first two pages so if this was already brought up, I apologize.

In the situation regarding getting help on the pulled foot or swipe tag.

Example: Any situation, BU does not make a call and looks to the PU for help. While coming down the line the PU has a brain fart or bug in his eye. You look at him and he looks at you with that deer in the headlights look. You then as the BU makes the call, or his response is delayed. You are not going to sell that call to anyone. It would seem like a guess.

From my experiences, it has always worked best(for me)as the BU to make the call. Be strong, call what you saw, and sell it. If after the fact you decide there may be a possibility that you missed it, go to your P for help and get the call right.

Some may not agree, but my p's and I have used signals in the past as to whether or not they saw the same thing. If they agreed, they would put hand over fist or touch the brim of their hat. If they didn't have the same thing, they would turn quickly and go back to business. To me, that extra information would let me know what I needed to do next. If I missed it, I would go to my p and get the call right even if not asked to get help. If we agreed and I was asked to get help, I would do so as a courtesy in most cases.

I don't have a big ego when it comes to getting help. I am human and make mistakes. But when and if I blow it, I would like to think I was in the best possible position to make the right call and will sell it big as sh!t.

Just my thoughts. Now for yours.

Re: Hmmm,
 

There is an old-time umpire up here in these parts that does amatuer baseball. The guy always works by himself. Guy's name is Earl and he made one of the funniest calls I have ever seen.

3-2 count on the batter, ball comes across high and batter checks his swing. Earl calls ball and runner takes off down to first. The pitcher then tells the catcher to appeal the call. The catcher turns to Earl and asks "did he go?" Earl replies with a hearty "YES HE DID!!" and rings the batter up on strike three.

Couldn't watch the rest of the game without laughing everytime old earl made a call.

I did a variation of that.

Working solo, check swing, "no he didn't!"

Catcher points his mitt down toward first asks for help.

I obliged, and pointed down with my left hand and called out "Did he go!?", expecting only a chuckle from the crowd.

The first base coach cocks right arm and replies "Yes he did!"

That was good enough for me.

"Strike"

thunpferee,

Earlier in the post there was a large discussion concerning " signals " between umpires. The general conclusion was that signals are NOT a good idea - for a variety of reasons. Feel free to check the rest of the thread to get that discussion. I won't bore everyone here repeating it.