<i>BRD Section 116: Catch: Dead-Ball Area: Thrown From

OBR: The fielder, unless he falls down <b>or loses body control</b>, may throw from any dead-ball area. (5.10f: 7.04c CMT 2)</i>

The concept of "falling" in dead-ball territory after a catch is a well-documented concept. However, this concept of "losing body control" is a new concept to me. There are no OFF INTERPs, Notes, Plays or other clarifying comments in the BRD concerning this concept. Additionally, I have reasearched all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available and they too seem [unless I missed something] silent on the concept.

Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material?

I'm sorry for the inconvenience. It's a pity you wasted all that time researching JEA, J/R, Knotty Probems, et. al. (<b>all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available</b>) and didn't research the paragraph directly above the OBR comment that puzzled you; i.e., the NCAA rule book at 6-1d.

Those who are familiar with NCAA-level baseball or its rules will surely have recognized the term is borrowed from that book. It is an attempt by that committee to define "falls."

I trust you will enjoy my book. If you have additional questions and want to save yourself this kind of embarrassment, write me directly: I'll be happy to help in any way I can. ([email protected])

Not embarrassed at all...
 

...and don't mind discussing valid baseball umpiring concepts in a public forum for all to see.

BUT, that NCAA term has nothing to do with the OBR interpretation noted in the BRD. The NCAA's attempt to define "falls" has no place in the OBR. Unlike the NCAA, there ARE numerous opinion and interpretation materials available for defining this specific ruling.

Again I submit: Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, <b>as it applies to OBR ONLY</b>, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material? Specifically, under OBR rules what loss of body control [other than falling down] would lead to the umpire declaring the ball dead and thus awarding bases?

Barring that, perhaps the "losing body control" concept needs to be ignored when discussing this situation under OBR rules?

Re: Not embarrassed at all...
 

Let me be even blunter.

<b>"Falls down" and "loses body control" are the same thing!</b><P>The phrase has nothing to do with NCAA or OBR or FED or NAIA or Babe Ruth or Little League or Pony, Inc.

"Loses body control" was an attempt by the NCAA committee (in 1974) to describe what the words "fall down" mean. I agree with them: "loses body control" <B>DOES DEFINE</B> what happens when anyone "falls down."

I'm certain no sincere umpire is really confused. The phrase "loses body control" has been in the BRD since the first edition in 1981-82. Yours is the first question about this after 19 editions.

I trust you, too, now understand this elementary concept.

If you are seriously interested in discussing the BRD, I ask again: Write me privately.([email protected])

Loss of body control?
 

Does you mean he peed his pants??? GRIN! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Re: Loss of body control?
 

"BODY" control, not "bladder" control. Pay attention now. There will be a short quiz later.

Re: Not embarrassed at all...
 

If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you.

1. The principle under consideration here is whether the fielder has a right to make a throw from dead ball territory.

2. The expressed intent in OBR 5.10(f), and not disputed by you, is to say that a fielder may NOT make such a throw from dead ball territory if he "falls". Note that the rule says "falls" and not "falls down". In other words, he must remain on his feet and <u>in control of his body</u> such that he is <u>not in the act of "falling"</u> when he releases the ball to make the throw.

3. The issue of "loss of body control" is one of establishing the proper timing, in order to clearly decide that the fielder was NOT IN THE ACT of "falling" when he released (threw) the ball. It implies that whether or not the ball is released, either before or after falling, it would NOT be a legitimate throw from dead ball territory if the fielder was in the act of "falling" when he released the ball and finally "falls". The latter case is established, under NCAA rules, by an evident "loss of body control" before the ball was released. In that sense, as Carl says, the "falling" and the "loss of body control" ARE effectively the same thing.

The principle followed in the BRD in this case is, IMHO, a legitimate one. The OBR clearly doesn't define what it means to "fall". Neither, as you say, does the NAPBL, JEA, J/R or any other official or authoritative source. We must interpret that for ourselves under OBR. However, the NCAA certainly HAS defined what it means to "fall", and their definition includes this concept of "loss of body control". It is perfectly appropriate, IMHO, to use the NCAA's more <i>specific definition</i> in preference to a mere <i>general</i> dictionary definition, where no other relevant specific definition exists elsewhere, when deciding for ourselves the question of what it really means to "fall" in such circumstances. The <i>specific</i> should always be preferred to the <i>general</i> in interpreting legislation, and using precedent from a comparable source is an equally accepted principle for fairly interpreting legislation.

Cheers,

Re: Re: Not embarrassed at all...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

Quote:

If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you. [snipped thought-provoking insights] Cheers,

Thank you Mr. Willson. I will take your NCAA insights into consideration as they apply possibly to the OBR. However, I make no guarantee that I will ultimately agree with them. At least you were willing to discuss this issue, not like that other guy who just wants to poo-poo the whole discussion notion. Maybe he's just too close to the whole issue and should take a giant step backwards. :eek:

Re: Re: Re: Not embarrassed at all...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Quote:

Originally posted by Warren Willson Quote: If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you. [snipped thought-provoking insights] Cheers, Thank you Mr. Willson. I will take your NCAA insights into consideration as they apply possibly to the OBR. However, I make no guarantee that I will ultimately agree with them. At least you were willing to discuss this issue, not like that other guy who just wants to poo-poo the whole discussion notion. Maybe he's just too close to the whole issue and should take a giant step backwards. :eek:

You still don't get it. There is nothing that needs doing. If a fielder falls in dead ball territory after making a catch, runners get one base. It's the same in the NCAA.

It doesn't matter to real umpires HOW the "fall" is defined. They know it when they see it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not embarrassed at all...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

It doesn't matter to real umpires HOW the "fall" is defined. They know it when they see it.

In the practical world of actual observation I can agree with this. The scholarly level is quite a different dog that just don't hunt.

Coming from anyone else I could accept this. However, coming from someone as esteemed as yourself who has built a reputation of "extreme accuracy" through his "life's work" of compiling the BRD, your explanations on this subject are somewhat lacking, and somewhat brusque. The concept of "losing body control" is not OBR factual and has no place being construed as such.

Thank you for your time. :confused:

Throwing while falling
 

Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree?

Re: Throwing while falling
 

My purely <i>personal opinion</i>, Chris, is that

(1) IF the fielder is in dead ball territory when he releases the throw AND
(2) IF he is in the act of "falling" when he releases the throw AND
(3) IF he subsequently "falls" on his behind THEN

IMHO the ball is DEAD and the throw is NOT allowed. OTOH,

(1) IF the fielder is NOT in dead ball territory when he releases the throw OR
(2) IF the fielder is NOT in the act of "falling" when he releases the throw i.e. he has complete body control OR
(3) IF the fielder does NOT subsequently "fall" on his behind THEN

IMHO the ball is ALIVE and the throw IS allowed.

I stress that this is purely a <u>personal opinion</u>, but you can certainly see the timing issue with respect to when the fielder has actually released the ball (<i>Time of the Throw</i>) and whether he was in the act of "falling" at that time.

Cheers,


[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 25th, 2001 at 05:23 PM]

Re: Throwing while falling
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chris s

Quote:

Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree?

Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial. ;)

Re: Throwing while falling
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Quote:

Originally posted by chris s Quote: Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree? Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial. ;)

U7, my answer to Chris was predicated in the originating post being about OBR and not FED rules. Although Chris mentions it was a "HS field", I didn't presume that only FED ball can be played on such a field. This is definitely NOT a criticism of your answer, which is on point and no doubt 100% accurate. Rather it is an explanation, for the benefit of the reader, of why <i>my</i> earlier answer did not include the FED interpretation even presuming I had known what that was. I defer to your superior knowledge of the rules of the NFHS system.

Cheers,

Quite right you are....
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Quote:

Originally posted by chris s Quote: Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree? Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial. ;)

`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I work ten times as many OBR games on this field than HS, O30 league into mid November, when it rains.....;)

Re: Re: Re: Loss of body control?
 

No, Barney was much more innovative and creative than that. He ruled in January 1985 that the head was part of the body. It was so original that we thought heads might roll at the BUD. Even Johnny Depp was frightened, and he was already 23.

007
 

I was enjoying your post until you made a fatal error . . .

Mr. Thurston of NCAA made the following ruling last year that shoots a great big whole in your logic:

Play.

As R2 is advancing towards third base and R1 towards second a wild throw passes F5. F1 is in good position to back up the play but falls . . . his feet are clearly in DBT but the major part of his body is in the field of play.

F1 DOES NOT CATCH the ball but simply blocks it back into the field of play.

Ruling:

Since the player does not 'capture'the ball and the majority of his body is in the field of play the ball is alive and in play.

A player must establish himself "out of play" to be "out of play".

I appreciate your attempt. But Carl is "Nuts ON!" on this one.

Tee

Re: 007
 

So...I guess that since you didn't quote the "logic" that has a big hole in it I guess that I just have to ask, since when does Thurston render opinion or interpretations for OBR? My question WAS pertaining to OBR.

"unless he falls down or loses body control"
 

Interesting wording. I'm NOT an OBR umpire (I do ASA JO Fastpitch, so I hope you don't mind the "intrusion"), but both of these imply to me an unintentional result -- i.e. the assumption is that the fielder intended to remain on his feet. What about a fielder who makes a dramatic diving catch into DBT? Is this a fall? No, it was a dive. Is it loss of body control? Certainly not, it is the untimate in body control to dive at full speed into the ground and make a catch, and to come up firing.

Is the ball live or dead?

Taking a dive...
 

Jim Mills is right about the fall and the dive producing the same result. It is the result that matters.

I just wanted to add that the whole point of the rule under discussion is to allow play to continue if the fielder remains on his feet after involuntarily entering dead ball territory as a result of his momentum after making a catch. It is most often colloquially referred to as the "catch and carry" rule. The only reason that the "loss of body control" interpretation from NCAA is of any consequence is that it gives us a <i>reference point</i> in time at which the act of falling commences, and after which a legitimate throw can no longer be made.

In the case of your diving fielder, the moment he left his feet such a subsequent throw became automatically impossible under the rule. If he catches the ball in mid dive before touching down in dead ball territory the catch and the out will stand, but either way there can be no legitimate following throw and continuation of play under OBR, unless the fielder is a cat and manages to land feet first! :)

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 27th, 2001 at 12:34 PM]