Let's say that in the 3rd inning F2 takes a hard foul ball off his helmet/mask combo breaking it so that it becomes unusable. That team does not have another catcher mask/helmet, etc. The NFHS is very clear when a player refuses to use required equipment, but what happens when that equipment is not available? Are there any guidelines as how to proceed?

Borrow one from the other team.

Gotta agree, beg borrow or steal one, try and let the kid play. DO NOT ever sacrafice safety though.

Had a similar situation in Dixie last year, 13-14 yr olds. Catcher comes out to warm up, and I notice he has ump shin guards on, no plate at the bottom. Kid said he caught three or four games already that year with them. We stopped the game, chewed on the coach a bit and our league president scrambled and found the kid a pair from our equipment storage so he could play. Two weeks later I call another game for them, and hes got the wrong shin guards on again. Coach got talked to, their league pres got a call from ours. Situation like that I put it all on the coach, his job to outfit his players.

And where in the rules does it specify what kind of shin gaurds the catcher must wear?

DG
 

Me too, me too . . .

He will say, "in that LEAGUE they require . . . "

Another OOO hits the broadband.

Tee

I'll agree that it doesn't say what the shin guards have to specifically have on them, just that they cover the knee when squatting. (DYB rules, 1.17) It seemed more of a common sense thing to me at the time. If I'm worried enough behind the plate about getting hit in the ankle/instep to wear plate shoes or shin guards with a instep plate, then the catcher should definitely have the protection.

Well yeah he should have protection, but it ain't your job to enforce made up rules.

Of course, the number one consideration is always safety. But if the other team's manager is a first-class AH, and refuses to let his equipment be used by the other team, then what? I can't see where an umpire could force equipment sharing. I would be inclined to use 4-2-3 as a guide in determining if the game should be called or suspended.

Upon further review, the NFHS rules seem to put these kinds of situations into each state association's purview.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 4th, 2005 at 09:24 AM]

Sure it is. It's called 9.01c.

Another TWP???

ddd If you spent as much studying the rules as you do creating TWP's, you would know that a SOME POINT, commmon sense has to prevail.

I know everyone is going to jump all over me for this but for heaven sake son use some common sense.

Wonder if the AH coach on the way out of the dugout had a heart attack and never gets a chance to say you can't use their equipment, What should we do??? Common Sense, Common Sense. Put orange cones around the coach, declare that dead ball territory , grab the catchers equipment and play on. ??????????????????????????????

Peruvian, surely you were kidding, but I didn't see a smiley. Don't you think it's a bit heavyhanded for an umpire to make decisions about the bottom of a catcher's equipment and enforce it via 9.1.c? It's not our business to add rules to the book - and the catcher was wearing the required equipment here.

If I thought that a catcher was not wearing the proper equipment no way that I let him catch. The safety of the players comes first. The obvious solution is to share equipment. Had this happen a number of times and it's never been a problem. If the other team refuses. I'm leaving no way I'm exposing myself to litigation for a few bucks. Risk VS. Reward makes no sense.

Let's end this -
It is NOT the duty of the opposing manager to lend his equipment out. If he doesn't want to that's fine.

It IS the duty of the umpire to ensure safety at all youth levels.

Missing safety equipment - no game! Not a forfet - just NO GAME.


Damn TWP's!

Absolutely amazing
 

Unless your local little boy league has a specific rule describing in detail that the catcher's shinguards must cover his instep, an umpire has no right, not even under 9.01(C), to get involved.

Panamanian, Peruvian, whatever, 9.01 (C) is designed to cover instances were no rules apply, not to amend existing rules. You can't use 9.01 (C)to alter an existing equipment rule because you disagree with it.

OOO's and TWP's. Getting more and more like Sleazeteamz everyday. All we need now are more LL coaches.

Lord help us.

Not a TWP
 

Back when I was managing base(daddy)ball teams this exact situation happened. We had both the old style skull-cap/mask and a hockey type catcher's helmet. First inning the snaps on the helmet give out, third inning a strap on the mask breaks. We were the home team, leading and far out-matched the competition. The opposing manager said no way is he going to let us break his equipment. Umpire ruled no game. We protested and got it changed to a suspended game but it was never made up. Consequently our standing in the league suffered. So don't think that anytime something out of the ordinary is posted here, or on any baseball board for that matter, that it's immediately TWP territory.

Do you actually think, in this day and age, if a HS manager needing to avoid a loss to make the playoffs would not avail himself of any rule twisting that he could think of? Back in the day, I myself twisted the more obscure and arcane rules to my advantage, especially when dealing with an umpire I thought had little or no clue. I earned that 'RAT' title several times over, and was able to come away with a few more wins for my teams because of it.

Now that I have come over the wall, I am trying to gauge how officious I need to be for FED ball. Generraly, working with the youngsters and their coaches(dads) was plenty easy: just show up in that sharp uniform with those certification patches and they figured "Can't mess with him easily, he knows his stuff." It was because those coaches aren't trying to make a living coaching, they're there to have some father-son bonding, have a good time, be entertained, etc. They don't have that same pressure to win that the HS manager may have.

So there's my perspective in a nutshell. This will be my first year doing FED games, and I don't want to be one of those aforementioned umpires "in the headlights."

ddd,

I've been doing this for almost 20 years, and there are some here that make me look like a rookie, in terms of years. However, if there is one thing I have learned, thats is the simple fact that I have'nt learned everything. and I try to stay within the guidelines of the rules and much as the next guy. This situation, while not TOTALLY out of the realm of possibliity, but certainly less than the batter dropping the bat on a pitch that fell out of the pitcher hand, is remote at best.

So what do we as officials have to fall back on if something happens out of the ordinary. Well first of all, you should be versed enough in the rules to know that its not covered. Then we have to rely on the next best thing, support from the coaches, players, atheletic directors, and yes even a parent that may be willing to quickly travel to help out.

I seriously don't believe that many good officials that frequent this forum are interested in ending the game.

Soooooo, where does that leave us ddd? Common sense, my friend, Common sense. Is it a varsity game? Probably not happening and if it does and the game has to be replayed then so be it. JV game, no big thing. As long as you did as much as possible, in a professional and safe manner as possible, then what happens, happens.

Know enough to officiate the game when your needed, and to stay out game when you not. That in itself will get you a long way..

Good Luck.

jicecone
 

Thank you for your prompt reply, and advice. Common sense, it seems, is in terribly short supply anymore. Just gotta figure out how to strike that balance!

ddd:
My $0.02:
In the unlikely event that a HS team has only one set of catcher gear AND the other team won't help out, well, the game can't continue. Make your notes, file your report & let higher authority sort things out.

You DO NOT have the authority to force the other team to share.
Absent a specific rule about the equipment, you DO NOT have the authority to impose "safety" standards which are not in the book.

9.01c & it's FED equivalent are not license to invent rules simply because the book does not say what you think it should.

If F2's shin guards don't have instep plates, not your problem. The book does not require them. FWIW, before anyone goes OOO about F2's instep, you may want to consider that F2's feet are a deal less likely to get bashed by the ball than the PU's, simply because of the difference in location and stance.
Further, those dangle plates can be a real nuisance: I cut the instep shields off my West shin guards because I sounded like something out of "I, Robot" [ CLANK, step, step, CLANK, CLANK]every time I tried to run in them, and they kept jabbing into my shoe & tripping me up.

If a team can not put 9 legally equipped players on the field at any time during the game you have a forfeit. In FED you can end a game with 8 but I don't see how you can end a game without a legally equipped catcher. Every pitch would go to the backstop...

If there is not catcher, I'm not standing there calling pitches. That game is done.

Okay. It's official. The TWP line has been crossed. Now we're talking about games without catchers.

Hensley, you're right. There is no longer a difference between this board and Sleazeteamz.

You DO NOT have the authority to force the other team to share.

I agree

Absent a specific rule about the equipment, you DO NOT have the authority to impose "safety" standards which are not in the book.

I agree no authority to impose safety standards per se. However as part of the pre-game. "Coaches are you teams legally and properly equipted" You do have authority and an obligation to be sure the game site and equipment are safe to use. If you beleive that this is not the case and it can't be fixed don't play the game. It's that simple.