Here's the result of our "ball lodged in the glove discussions."

SITUATION 6: B1 hits a slow roller down the first-base line. F1 rushes over to field the ball, but cannot get the ball out of his glove. He quickly removes his glove with the ball still in it, and shovels the glove to the first baseman, who is in contact with the base. The first baseman catches the glove with the ball in it just before B1 touches the base. RULING: When F1 removes his glove with the ball lodged in it and shoveled it to the first baseman, the umpire should declare “Time,” and award all runners, including the batter-runner, two bases. This is a ball that is lodged in a player’s equipment. (2-9-1, 8-3-3c, 5-1-1f-5)

Oh My!

Apparently being able to lodge a ball in someone's equipment is a great offensive skill.... it's not the defensive team's inability to make a play due to a misplay or equipment malfunction, it's an offensive skill.

We won't have any of those deadly gloves with lodged balls flying around the infield! :D

Dammit coach, another slow roller lodged in my glove again.:p

A dark day for baseball.

3b Coach: "Come on Johnnie, bases loaded, lodge one in the glove for us."

We discussed this one at a meeting last week, quite a few of the area coaches there as well. General feeling on it is its a bad ruling and that now the coaches are going to be preaching don't take that glove off, just don't do it.

That seems to be exactly what FED wants, don't take that glove of, and throw it around.

Awful.

Now couple it with this:

SITUATION 7: B1 hits a sharp ground ball to F1, who gloves the ball from the mound. As B1 nears first base, F1 has trouble pulling the ball from the webbing of his glove. B1 touches first base and F1 is able to eventually pull the ball from his glove. RULING: The play stands. This is not a lodged ball as the pitcher was able to extract the ball from his glove. Since he did not toss his glove with the ball lodged in it to F3, the ball stays live, the play stands, and there is no award of bases. (2-9-1)

So, if I'm reading these right, in sitch 7, we must actually wait to see if F1 can remove the ball from his glove. If he can't, we're back to sitch 6.

What if he calls time, with the ball still in his glove? How do we know whether it was lodged or not? Are they trying to say that it's only lodged if the equipment comes off?

Awful, just awful.

I don't allow players to call time. They can only request time and in this situation, I'm not giving it.

Well, I agree that the ruling(s) are awful.
Still, I think the key in #7 is "eventually". I cannot imagine a sitch in which the ball cannot be extracted "eventually" without removing the glove, which is what has the FED rules guys in a flutter.
So, yeah, the short answer to "how do we know if it's lodged" is: "did he take off the glove?"

We have several "awful" case book plays this year. My fav is the caught-foul mechanics error do-over. Nobody but umpires is gonna get excited about the two plays where the lodged-ball/glove sitch happens. Somebody somewhere in Fedland is going to need an armed escort to the car for indicating "Foul" before the ball is caught in foul territory.

Don't mean to make this TWP...

F3 fields the ball cleanly, touches the bag for the third out and runs to the dugout. 30 seconds later when F1 of the other team is asking for the ball, we go ask F3 for it - the reply: "Can't give it to you, it's stuck."

OK - everyone back on the field, BR on 2nd base, 2 outs.

Yes - I've driven this to the point of absurdity ... then again, this ruling STARTED at the point of absurdity.

If they simply wanted to stop the tossing of equipment around the field, they could have just made a rule about detached equipment with the ball in it causing the dead ball and base award. I STILL disagree with it, even if they'd made the rule that way, but at least it avoids the umpire having to make any distinction about when a ball is "lodged."

Try this one, combining the 2 situations.

R1, ball hit to F6 who scoops it, touches 2nd, can't get the ball out, and flings the glove and ball to 1st.

By CP 7, this is out at 2nd, and by CP 6, BR to 2nd. Under these rules and rulings, this is how I'd handle it. But if this is what transpired, the ball was actually lodged before the point of the out at 2nd, not at the point of detaching the equipment (and F6 didn't "eventually" remove the ball from the glove at all). Shouldn't this be no outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd?

Maybe I just haven't called enough games or didn't play enough baseball when I was in school, but how often, realistically, are you going to have a situation where the ball is lodged in the mitt to the point to where it won't come out with two or three seconds of work?

Actaully I'm still trying to figure out how you can lodge a ball in a mitt so badly that you can't get it out by simply reachign in and pulling it out. I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious so please sxplain it to me.

Not So Uncommon
 

I've seen it happen on ESPN Sportscenter a couple of times, and it always involves F1. In fact, the MLB Umpire Manual recently posted an update at the end of Section 5 to cover this exact situation: The new interpretation goes on to emphasize that a ball stuck in a fielder's glove is not to be considered out of play; the ball remains live. It is legal for one fielder to throw the glove with a live ball stuck in it to another fielder. A fielder who possesses the ball/glove combination in his own hand or glove can complete a tag of a runner or base, just as if he were holding only the ball.

Manny

Re: Not So Uncommon
 

That's correct but the FED hasn't caught up with this yet!

In fact, not only has Fed not caught up with this, but they've gone in the opposite direction.

I am certain FED is aware of other rulings including MLB. However, they clearly do not want gloves thrown around with balls in them. Definition of lodged = thrown glove.

Not sure that is true.

Perhaps
thrown glove = lodged
I can live with that

But I think lodged includes more than just, I had to throw my glove.

Another example
 

So am I understanding this correctly? IF the ball lodges in the pitcher's glove but the pitcher runs to first and tags the base before the runner gets there it is an OUT right???

IT sounds like it is just the removal of the glove from the hand when lodged that makes the play DEAD and the runner safe. Have I oversimplified it or is this correct??

Re: Another example
 

You are correct.

Re: Re: Another example
 

Not only safe, but a 2 base award.

The FED "foul ball" debacle will never happen because any umpire incompetent enough to call "Foul!" before a ball is caught is also incompetent enough not to be aware of the casebook ruling. Consequently, he'll probably go "Oops!" and <b>still</b> call the batter out.

Everyone will have a good chuckle at his expense. The batter will be out. And not a single person on the field will be aware that a FED casebook play had just been violated ... other than, perhaps, the other umpire; who is certainly not going to say a word at this point.

Ridiculous rulings like this don't bother me for some reason. They might as well have ruled:

<font color=red><b>If, during the course of live ball action, a meteorite hits the playing field, causing such catastrophic disruption of the Earth's atmosphere that it sends the entire planet into an Ice Age - the umpire shall immediately call time and declare the home team the winner of the ball game. The visitors are awarded a forfeit.</b></font>

I think that would be a bad rule, too. But I don't care. Get my point?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Feb 9th, 2005 at 10:13 AM]

I think the awarding of bases is for throwing the glove not the ball being lodged in the glove. It seemed to me from reading some of the posts that a few thought the award was for the ball being lodged. The defense is being penalized for throwing the glove, not having a lodged ball. Case Play 6 and 7 differ in that exact manner. Penalized in 6 for a thrown glove and not in 7 because the glove wasn't thrown.

<b>My fav is the caught-foul mechanics error do-over.</b>

I haven't done Fed in a long time. What is this rule?

Pop-up over foul ground. Umpire yells, while ball is in flight, "FOUL!!!" Fed says that this ball is now dead, even if caught. Foul ball, batter still at plate.

...

Yeah ... that's what we all think.

I can think of only one justification for this rule. Abel on 1B runs on the pitch; Baker pops a foul over near the dugout; ump yells, "Foul"; Abel, now past 2B, stops and cuts back across the diamond toward 1B and then finds out the ball has been caught.

In this situation, I could see protecting the runner to some degree, but not the batter.

The only other legitimate argument I have heard goes something like - the reason it is dead the second the umpire yells foul is that it is possible that the ball will be blown back fair - and in such cases, we are not allowing the batter to run bases - he has to live with the foul call and continue batting. It would not be fair to allow only the defense to continue playing to it's advantage.

I don't BUY it ... but I've HEARD it.

Actually, I don't, but no matter.
I am not "bothered" by dumb official rulings, & I'll certainly follow them in the games to which they apply.
As for the one I mentioned, I'll simply take it as a reminder not to be sloppy in my mechanics, and [presuming my partners do likewise], it will have as much impact on my games as the meteorite forfeit ruling.

However, I have to disagree with your initial premise: although the sloppy umpire commiting premature foul adjudication may also be ignorant about the case ruling, you can count on it that the offensive coach in that game will not only know about it, he'll have the '05 Case Book in his back pocket.

You're kidding, right?

The coach will have the Case Book on his person <b>AND</b> have recall of that particular case play?

Not in a million years!

In fact, I'll take it one step further. The probability that the coach even has a RULE book anywhere accessible is about 1 chance in 5. And that's a RULE book, not a CASE book.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

WEELLL...
My tongue MAY be somewhat in-cheek.... However, as a firm believer in Murphy's Law and it's manifold codicils ["Anything that can happen, will; usually all at once and at the very worst time imaginable."]: IN THAT GAME where the caught-foul "oopsie" happens [esp. if it happens in the bottom of the 7th, so that the next pitch can get crushed for the game winning home run], the SOB will, inevitably, have the case book in his hip pocket, and he'll have just read the actual play/ ruling that afternoon: count on it.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Feb 10th, 2005 at 12:47 AM]

That's the kind of rule that's so unusual a coach might actually remember it.

I coached high school baseball 35 years ago and ignorantly assumed that baseball rules were baseball rules, that OBR covered everything. I think many umps did also. For all I know, in those days that was true. Schools contracted directly with umpires, not with an association. Maybe in 1970 there wasn't a Fed in NJ.

When I umpired Fed many years later, I found very few coaches who knew, for example, the force play interference rule. Most (certainly not all) assumed that slides at 2B were treated just as in OBR and were amazed when I informed them differently.

Once in the early 1970s I stopped to watch a girls' varsity softball game simply to watch a little of it, but when the ump(s) didn't show up, one of the coaches (a former baseball teammate) asked me to officiate. So I did, with no rules knowledge except what I knew from playing a little softball myself. Imagine that happening today. Thirty years later, I did a game at the same school, and everything was far more "official."