Thanks for the pleasure of reading here the last four years or so. I joined when I found this place four years ago but I think that this is my first post. I was able to find my userid and password in my notebook.

Over on McGriffs baseball, there is a discussion which interests me greatly. I never posted there either but I want to bring the discussion over here because this is where most of the experts are. However, I remember how upset Brad got when someone copied something from somewhere else. I don't remember the details and I don't want to get someone's dander up on the first post. We have enough of that already.

The thread on McGriff's is entitled "Windy, can you pass this test." It is the NCAA rules test for this year. I am in my fifth year of umpiring and want to move up. That test is an a--kicker. I don't understand where some of the questions are going.

Would it be possible to move that discussion over here or could a few of the experts here go slumming and answer some of the questions over there.

Thanks in advance.

Clyde

I'm not a rules guru by far but I did take the test and if you had any questions, (other than the DH rule ;)) - I'm sure one of us here could clear somethings up for you.

McGriffs got the answers
 

This may be a first. The answers to the first half of the test have been posted on McGriffs.

http://www.gmcgriff.com/discus/messa...tml?1106016591

How did McGriffs beat the experts here?

Re: McGriffs got the answers
 

Simple, the experts here were tied up debating Third World Plays.

That's a good one!

Re: Re: McGriffs got the answers
 

McGriffs is all about one-upmanship and name calling. The test was posted there to call the bluff of one of the frequent posters, not to gain information.

It then evolved a bit to posting a link to the answers.

If you've gone to the link to check your answers, be wary that they are correct. Case in point, #17. The author of the link says the ball is dead when it hits the runner, even though it has PASSED a fielder. I was taught according to the rule book, that once a batted ball passes a fielder and no other fielder has a chance to field it, if it hits a runner it will remain LIVE. The link author says he has verified his answers by submitting his test to the NCAA. I think either he missed something or the NCAA did on at least this question - your guess as to who is correct.

I haven't seen that thread (I've avoided the baseball side of that site since nearly the time the new format was introduced), but I have "the ball is dead" as one of my answers to #17, and I had it scored as "correct".

That said, I can't figure out what's wrong with some of the others I missed -- so I'm perfectly willing to accept that some of the answer keu is wrong. ;)

I thought NCAA was parallel with OBR on this issue, in which case the ball would only remain alive if it passes through the legs of or within the immediate reach of the fielder, and hits the runner immediately back of the fielder, and no other fielder had a play on the ball. In any other circumstance that that, the ball is dead and the runner is out.

Hmmm....I still can't figure how that runner is out in #17 - the NCAA rule says the runner is out when he's hit by a batted ball before it "has touched or passed all infielders". Seems to me that if the first baseman is in and the second baseman is playing "up the middle", and the first baseman has to dive for a ball (which he misses) and THEN it hits the runner who started BEHIND the first baseman, that it HAS passed all the infielders.
Of course, the NCAA (and OBR, Dave?) may decide that MAYBE the ball hasn't passed all the infielders until it goes by the imaginary line in the dirt where they are each/all standing, even if they have no chance to make a play on the ball...
Am I way off base here???

We need to know how the NCAA defines "passed" for purposes of the rule.

Dave Hensley posted what OBR uses.

I am confident of my explanation of the OBR interpretation of a runner hit by a batted ball, but I do not know the proper interpretation of the applicable NCAA rule. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of games I have umpired using NCAA rules, and I just faked it then. :)

So if the infield is in and a guy gets a base hit through the hole past the diving 3rd baseman and shortstop, but it hits the runner, the runner is out? If not, how does this differ from the NCAA case outlined - and where did you find the OBR ruling?

The judgment to be made in your play is did the ball pass within the immediate reach of the fielder before hitting the runner immediately back of him. You are evaluating whether the runner had a reasonable chance to avoid being hit by the ball and failed. When the ball goes through a fielder's legs and then hits the runner right behind him, the runner is NOT out because the logic is that he didn't have a reasonable opportunity to avoid being hit, because the fielder should have fielded it. Same logic if the ball deflects off the fielder and then hits the runner, the runner is not out.

In all other cases of a runner hit by a batted ball, the runner is out. He has an obligation to avoid being hit. The idea that the runner is exempt if the ball has travelled a farther distance from homeplate than all infielders are stationed is known as the "string theory" and, for OBR, is an obsolete interpretation of the relevant rules, superceded by authoritative and official interpretation by what I call the "Jim Evans interpretation" in which "passes" is defined as "passes through the legs or within the immediate reach" of the fielder. The related idea that the runner is exempt when hit by a batted ball as long as no other infielders had a potential play on the ball is an incorrect interpretation of a fragment of the actual rule.

The best, most current source of confirmation of the OBR interpretation is contained in the MLB Umpire Manual, in section 6.4. Here's an example play from that section that illustrates the gist of the interpretation:

(5) Runners on first and second, both runners stealing. Batter shows bunt, the first and third
basemen move in, and the shortstop moves to cover third. The batter swings at the last minute
and hits a ground ball in the direction of the shortstop position. However, the shortstop has
moved to cover third base, and no one is in position to field the ball. The ground ball strikes the
runner advancing from second base.
Ruling: Runner from second is declared out for being struck by a batted ball. The batter-runner is
placed at first base. The ball is not considered to have gone through or by an infielder in this
play.

Hope this helps.

What Dave has written is also what I have been taught. Runners must avoid being hit by a batted ball, even if the ball has passed all the infielders and no other infielder has a play on the ball. Runners are protected only when directly behind a fielder who misplays a ball, and I suspect it's the misplaying of the ball that protects them rather than the fact that they are behind a fielder.

One possible rationale for this interpretation is that the defense still has a right to make a play on a batted ball, even if that play will be made by an outfielder. Runners who make contact with batted balls thus hinder the defense's ability to play. The current interp is in line with a foundational idea of fairness that lies behind all the rules: let every player do his job. If the offense intentionally or negligently prevents the defense from doing its job, it should be penalized.

The answer key given on the other Forum is wrong. I worked with Jim Paronto on the 2005 test. The play in question echoes a play from Joe Brinkman's book, <i>The Umpire's Handbook</i>, which I edited back in 1987. Here's the comment I added to the first draft of the test: This is a great play! If you’ll recall, we discussed this at the San Antonio meeting. As I understand the question, under NCAA rules (and your interpretation: BRD, §306) R1 is not out. Under the latest PRO interpretation, R1 IS out because the ball did not pass by (within arm’s reach) of the fielder. Their theory is that when the runner is hit in those circumstances, that changes the dynamics of the play on a ball that was headed for the outfield.

The correct answer is f.

The Paronto interpretation, which WAS the pro interpretation at the time of Brinkman's book, is that when the fielders play in front of the basepath, a runner hit by the ball is NOT out.

I don't know who is bandying about the NCAA test answers, but I'd be quite wary of any posted anywhere other than the NCAA Website.

My problem was with Question 11.

Maybe so, but it does match (at least for question 17) the scoring from the NCAA test web-site.

Quote:

My problem was with Question 11.

BR is out for interference, ball is dead immediately.

Somewhere (rule book? RefMag's Study Guide?) I recently read something to the effect that "if the batter is out of the box, the burden is on him not to interfere." Since the batter was out of the box, and since he did interfere, call the interference (there's an assumption here, of course, that the batter was in the line of the throw, and that F2 didn't just "soak" the batter to get the call).

The questions are multiple choice, but not listed "a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f". There is no "f". And they scramble the answers each time you log on, so it's not automatically in the same place in the key each time. I will echo Carl - don't rely on web answers from anywhere but the NCAA site. And I still don't know what the correct NCAA answer is!

I just took the test and would have received 49 out of 50 of the answers we had agreed on before it was posted.

The original "correct" answer was f (or the check mark goes by: Allow the play to continue after the batted ball hits the runner at first base).

The correct answers now are: everything except that one and "score the runner from third base."

I'll have to have a serious talk with Jim Paronto. (grin) The answer to that question is a reversal of the official interpretation I received. I'll have to post a correction to BRD section 306.

Well, that's what you get when you fool around with those NCAA boys. (another grin)

Are you willing to help out on 6, 29, 31, 35, 42, 48 and 50? I think I know my mistake on 6, 35 and 48, but I'll be darned if I can see what' wrong with my answers on the other.

Well, I don't want to post the answers before they go up on March 7. I'll be happy to discuss them privately.

Bob;

I took the test using the answers provided by Notitia Evidens and NFUmp. Their answers were 100% correct as far as the NCAA was concerned. I got them all right except for #50 and I have no clue what the answer to that one is.

6. check all except "The on deck batter may be ejected"

29. The DH is lost when a def player comes in to pitch

31. 1. Smith can only DH if not inserted defensively in the 6th.
2. Smith must be placed in a def position when removed in the 6th.

35. 1. signal BR safe
2. call BR out if defense appeals...

42. 1. BR is out
2. R1 remains at 2b.
3. R2 is out

48. 1. The catcher interferes...
2. The coach at third pulls R3...
3. F1 balks
4. F1 obstructs BR before he touches first.

Clyde

Number 50 is easy - if they had the right answer. One correct answer is: "Members of the offense line up along the third base line to touch knuckles with a home run hitter before he reaches the plate." (5-2d Penalty)

The other correct answer is: "A fielder stands in such a way that a runner tagging up cannot see a catch in the outfield. (8-3f Penalty)

Problem is: They left that off the answer key.

Thanks to both of you. I had the correct "revisions" to 6 and 35, and I have the correct answer to 50 (but not the "computer" answer). On the others...

29. Why isn't "The new left fielder must bat in the spot of the original P/DH" correct?

31. Why must Smith be placed in a defensive position? Can't he just stay DH?

42. Rule reference, please. I read the play as the defense getting one out. With no NCAA guidance (that I found), I applied the OBR interp -- the play stands (and the other answers that go with this). The answer seems to follow the FED interp -- the players should have known it was an infield fly and are at risk.

48. Why is "the catcher interferes ..." a delayed dead ball? Aren't we just ignoring the interference opne BR reaches frist? For that matter, why is "F1 balks" a delayed dead ball? It *might* be, but it's not always (and in practice the ball is dead immediately more than not).

Thanks again for the help/

The NCAA's answer to #24 is apparently, "Disallow BR's attempt to return to second base." I am at a loss to find a rule that supports this. Is the umpire to call time to diallow BR's return? The ball is live, why can't BR return? BR is not running the bases in reverse order to confuse or make a travesty of the game? Can someone help me?

The interpretation in NCAA is that if the rule book doesn't cover it, the umpire is to use the OBR rule or interpretation. See OBR 7.01 and CMT.