Situation: Runner on 1st (R1), Batter hits fly to short right field. R1 hesitates to see if ball will be caught. Batter/Runner passes him while rounding 1st base. Right fielder catches ball on bounce and throws to 2nd base for force out. Question--is force removed when Batter/Runner is declared out for passing R1?

OBR............yes

Think of it this was - if the batter is out, just who is forcing R1?

All force plays are off when the BR is called out.

I thought the out call on the batter may be a delayed call; therefore the force would still be in effect until the action concluded. Thanks for the clarification.

Nope, no delay here. The moment the BR passes R1, he's out.

Manny

If I understand correctly from my (old) J/R, if the batted ball is caught, you rule BR OUT on the catch.

You would not need J/R to make that call.

Odd wrinkle on this play: in NCAA (unless there has been a change within the past 2 years), even with BR out for passing R1, if R1 then proceeded to <i>miss</i> 2B and then was called out on appeal, his out for missing 2B would be considered a force play (the force was in effect when the play began). (So if the play started with 1 out and a runner on 3B, any run scored by the runner from 3B would be nullified.

In Fed and OBR, R1's out for missing 2B would <i>not</i> be a force out.

Hmmm...if the BR is out on the catch in right field, but you've already called him out the second he passes R1, does R1 still have to tag up on the caught fly ball?

Not when it bounces first, before the catch. (Please refer to the initial post)

This is the reason I mentioned that batter is OUT on the catch, not the passing of R1. Umpire makes ruling on the catch, ignores the BR passing. Yes, R1 does have to retouch in this case. I checked J/R because I didn't see where this was addressed specifically in OBR (although it may be).

Hmmmm...again. If I see a runner pass another runner, I call him out immediately. I don't wait to see if whatever ball he hit is caught or not. I was just looking for a reference that R1 still has to tag up, even though the BR was out for passing (I don't necessarily disagree with that). Anyone?
Oh, sorry about missing the intial post about the ball bouncing. I guess my question could have been posted in another thread since it deals with a caught fly ball...

Page 45, 9th Ed of J/R - "A force is removed against a runner when a trailing runner or the batter-runner is out".

Item 245, 2004 BRD - "A force is removed whenver a following runner is "put out on a force play.""

These only apply on a ball that bounced. On one that was caught in flight R1 would still need to tag up, even if BR passed him.

OBR 7.10(a) mereley says that the runner is out on appeal when he fails to retouch on a caught fly. It says nothing about whether the BR is out on the catch or on some other rule (e.g., infield fly).

Wouldn't it matter which happened first? If the batted ball is caught first, then obviously BR is out and R1 must retouch. If BR passes R1 before the batted ball is caught, then BR is out immediately, the force is removed on R1, and R1 need not retouch. Or do we want to say that the catch by the outfielder on a BR who is already out nonetheless forces R1 to retouch, on the grounds that the ball was not safely hit?

I'm trying to think of another situation where BR can be out due to an infraction on his part before the defense can put him out. Interference is not a good example to use as a parallel, because the penalty for interference usually dictates that runners return.

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Wouldn't it matter which happened first? If the batted ball is caught first, then obviously BR is out and R1 must retouch. If BR passes R1 before the batted ball is caught, then BR is out immediately, the force is removed on R1, and R1 need not retouch. Or do we want to say that the catch by the outfielder on a BR who is already out nonetheless forces R1 to retouch, on the grounds that the ball was not safely hit?

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All runners must retouch after a fly ball is caught - 7.10(a). This has nothing to do with BR passing R1, force plays, or any other situation.

Let's make this really simple and call it a double play.
BR is out twice. R1's retouch can be optional (if less than three outs).

The error you are making is believing that a runner's requirement to retouch on a caught fly ball is a "force play." It is not; it is an appeal play. The retouch requirement is related to the catch itself, not the batter's status at the time of the catch.

This situation (batter out for passing before batted fly ball is caught) is the one time in a thousand that the catch and the batter's putout are NOT related to each other, and (as far as I know) there is an absence of discussion of this situation in the authoritative literature. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the rules that would remove the runner's obligation to tag up because the batter is out for passing when his fly ball is caught; as mentioned previously, a caught fly ball never creates a force play.

Thank you Dave.

ASA softball has an unusual rule under which the batter can be out but the runners still forced.

If the batter hits a ground ball and then deliberately removes her helmet, she is immediately called out, but runners are still forced. So even with the BR out, a runner on 1B must cannot retreat to 1B but must continue to 2B.

(I don't like the rule.)