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Reading CC exerpt from his new book makes me remember the biggest cluster boink I was involved with last year. So YOU BE THE JURY. This is simply a question of umpire mechanics, botched mechanics, and decisions on getting help, then what to do with it. Here is the story as it really happened.. YOUR JOB is evaluate what was done. Do you PRAISE the antlered one, or do you load up the 20 gauge?
Quick background.. I am a "mid tier" 4th year umpire with my association. I have 400 Assoc games, and maybe 40 or more at the level of THIS GAME. I am assigned a game in the Connie Mack State Tourny, 17-18 year olds, very high level, all varsity players. I am teamed with a VET 20 year guy, D1 tier. (Highest). I'm told matter of factly I have bases. Tight, good game, no problems, good work by both of us each end... now in the 6th inning.... R1, 1 out, grounder to F4.. I step, and turn with ball, and watch the DP try, the flip to F6. I might be thinking already about the relay, I'm "leaning" toward making my 3 step move toward first. I know I kept my eyes on the "play", but.. Anyway, the flip to SS, call "OUT" and halt my move toward first, the play breaks down, there is a scramble at bag, R1 has overslid, ball is on ground, F6 gets ball, legs and arms all over. My mind is screaming OH CRAP!! I am not sure what just happened, obviously, F6 booted the relay, but did he drop on a transfer, or did he just muff it.. The fact is, I have NO IDEA. (Digression, I KNOW my mistake here, bad timing, too quick. But back to the reality). I make a split second decision (called a GUESS), and adamently go back to the play and announce and demonstrate, "Runners OUT, dropped on the TRANSFER!!" I was telling myself... pullleeeze be right about this.. I had a 50 50 shot. Ooops. Time called, here comes 3b coach, the manager, he is talking wiht me on infield, he is hot, but reserved, "Mike, that was definitely not a Tranfer, he just dropped it, I don't think you had a good look at that, what did you see, etc" I tell him matter of factly that I saw the ball dropped on a transfer attempt and the runner is going to be out. "Mike, you can't let this happen, its too close, bla bla, would you please check with Zeke (PU), just ask him what he saw?" I look toward home and there is Zeke, standing in front of plate at military attention, mask at his side. I'm thinking GODDAMN... "Stay here, " I tell coach and I walk toward plate. Zeke doesn't move. I get to him and he says, "What do you want?" "Zeke, I will tell you, I confess to you now that my mind just did not register what happened there, and my call of OUT on transfer was a GUESS.. I have no idea. So I am going to ask you, Did you SEE the play, and if so what did you see? "Mike, I saw everything, the SS just MISSED the relay, flubbed it, there was NO transfer!" "This is too important, and I want this to be right. If that is the way it happened then I want it called that way, do you support this" "Do what you think is right" I went back out, announced that the Runner was SAFE, the ball was dropped at 2nd. OF COURSE there is a minutes long @#%$house from the OTHER side. NO body gets tossed. They deserved alot of rope.. I @#% up, so I stood and listened and let them have their say and they finally relented. Finally, back to baseball, and of course this is crucial as the team at bat now scores 4 or 5 runs, takes the lead, and eventually wins. I am, of course, told by the stands and others that I am a snake, dog, blind, idiot, etc etc as we leave. But to both sides credit, we are NOT visited at our cars in parking lot, nothing more is said, just another game. End of story. I won't skew your eval by saying what "Crusty" told me afterwards. But what is YOUR review of what I did? |
Many may disagree, but I think you made the right decision to get the call right. I'm sure you learned a great lesson in slowing down your timing, too.
I think a newer attitude regarding getting help <b>if it is necessary</b> is permeating officiating of all sports---including baseball. I think the fans and coaches appreciate it. They may not want to admit to it immediately when they're not on the preferred end of the call, but they all saw the same play you and Zeke did. Some may have actually believed they saw the play the same as your original call, but I suspect most saw as Zeke did. I happened to be in Zeke's position in a 5A HS playoff in Austin last May where my partner called a guy safe on pickoff at 2nd. The crowd in Cleveland saw the tag beat the runner. When partner came to me I told him I what I saw, but that I would support whatever call he went with. He turned around and reversed his call. Coach came out, got his 60 second chewin' on the umps, and went back in. Ass't Coach later admitted reversing call was right decision. Unorthodox manner, but the call was right !! It took a whole lot of guts to make that reversal. I would rather see the official take the heat for making a right call than for making a wrong call. Those kids earned their way to where they were and only one team was movin' on. I would much rather it be determined by their good play vs. our wrong calls. That partner earned a bunch of my respect that day---although I don't know how he missed call to start with. However, we have all made mistakes. The only thing I would add is I don't check partner if I feel absolutely certain of call I made. When I check partner, I tell him I will go with whatever he wants me to, but please don't go against me unless YOU ARE CERTAIN I missed it. Then I take whatever he says......... These instances of "conferring" are relatively rare events also. Just my opinion, [Edited by Bfair on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 12:20 AM] |
"I would rather see the official take the heat for making the right call than for making a wrong call" -
That's the best statement I've seen on this board in a year. I'm glad it was supported by LOTS of "but be careful" - for every call that someone decides to change, even if it's changed to the right call, I flash back to that Cub's game where one of the base umpires overruled BOTH the plate guy and the third base guy and called it a homerun - which was the WRONG call. How does one justify that, and what happens to respect of the whole crew? |
Well, I guess it's my turn in the barrel.
No one has taken the heartless approach yet, so I guess it's my turn.
Heartless Comment Number one: I don't believe that this is one of the calls that should be overturned in a two man system. As much as I will go for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot at first, (When I'm in C), I will not entertain a coach's appeal of my call at second like this. Heartless comment Number Two: It appears that perhaps you were rushed in your development and assignments. No one should call that level/important of a game who does not have the timing to avoid that kind of a sh@^ house. (nothing personal, fault the assignor) Heartless Comment Number Three: If I ever approached my UIC in a game and his first words were "What do you want?"I'd respond "Nothing" and turn back around. I think maybe he was trying to dissuade you from asking. As much as I usually argue against the pro school mentality of "I'll get mine and you get yours, or get off the field and I'll get both" I do not believe this play should be open to review. Garth [Edited by GarthB on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 05:11 PM] |
Re: Well, I guess it's my turn in the barrel.
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[Edited by Carl Childress on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 05:14 PM] |
Re: Re: Re: Well, I guess it's my turn in the barrel.
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I suggest you read my posts more carefully in the future. By the way: You know what happens when you "assume." Right? |
"Denigration" like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
<i>Originally posted by Hayes Davis:</i>
<b>Truly a denigration on a lot of fine umpires that work hard to learn proper mechanics and rulings</b> I guess we each read into posts what we want. I do not see "truly a denigration..." Fact is most mid and upper level umpires began at LL level. Where would you send an umpire who may have moved up to soon and needs more training? To a higher level? No, you re-assign him to a level at which he can more easily handle the games and work on improving. Most LL umpires I have been associated with are not so defensive as to read negative comments into every reference of LL. |
A few comments
I think Garth's comments about the umpire not being in the right level of game is misplaced, and perhaps, irrelevant.
EVERYONE makes mistakes. Let's not get to the point where we start thinking that timing mistakes don't happen to the veterans. They do, especially when the veterans get lazy or get in a groove where they stop thinking about those fundamentals. Let's focus on what happened AFTER the mistake. I wouldn't have changed this call either. Once that call is made, it cannot be undone. What would've happened if the relay throw from F4 went out of play, or worse, went down the first base line. Do we divine afterwards where the umpire should place that runner who, suddenly, is not out? Do we award bases to a runner who was originally called out? What's worse: Do we make our decision on whether to change the call based on the circumstances that follow? Nope. Once out, always out. Hey: That goes for the swipe tag and the pulled foot, too. If the base umpire MAKES AN INITIAL CALL, then it's gonna stand, too. If an umpire wants help, he gets it BEFORE he makes the call. Sometimes making the right call doesn't mean you undo the wrong call. Sort of like that old phrase: Two wrongs don't make a right. Rich ------------------ Rich Fronheiser Natick, MA |
You really had to reach for that one, Hayes, but, sorry, not going to be dragged into a pissing contest at this board..,.
Have a wonderful season. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well, I guess it's my turn in the barrel.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hayes Davis
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well, I guess it's my turn in the barrel.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hayes Davis
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In my post, completely separate from the play at second that Mike [name substituted on request] and Garth discussed, I explained how an umpire could <i>correct</i> a call and showed an instance when he should not <i>change</i> a call. I then said if I saw one of my umpires do that, I would send him to a lower level. Where I live. Where I assign. Where I work. But, here you go, "assuming" I referred to Mike's [name substituted on request] post simply because I've dropped in on that thread. Gosh, Hayes, you're right about <b>one thing</b> anyway: I sure don't live in Seattle. Comprehension 101.... Here's the fact of it: You've been so intent on trying to show <b>me</b> up, you've just dug <b>yourself</b> a deeper and deeper hole. Finally: Where did your pidgeon Chinese, Charlie Chan accent come from? That sounds rather ugly, doesn't it? I know associations I've visited in California where such nonsense would be viewed with great anger. I trust you will apologize to the Chinese-Americans who visit the Forum.<hr color=red>I deleted the names because of a complaint by the original poster. [Edited by Carl Childress on Feb 5th, 2001 at 01:23 AM] |
My Review, FWIW...
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You did the wrong thing, Mike. There is no escaping that. And I am NOT talking about the missed call at 2nd. That can happen to anyone; usually when we are feeling way too confident and things are going along so well. It was a bad mistake, which you have honestly admitted. That's good. That is the 1st step to improving your game so that such mistakes become even rarer, and when they do occur you know better how to handle them. From your post, here are the subsequent mistakes I believe you made: 1. When the coach/manager started to dispute your view of events, you should have nailed the discussion right there but you didn't. It may appear, in 20/20 hindsight, that his view of events was totally correct and yours was at best incorrect. Nevertheless, as has been pointed out already, having made the call you MUST NOT change it. Instead, you should have responded to the coach/manager in this fashion: "<i>Skip, I appreciate your input. If I had your view of events I might have called the play differently. As it stands I have made a judgement decision and the runner is out. If I have kicked the call in your view then I will work harder to get it right next time, but I cannot change <b>this</b> call and I cannot make up for any error. Let's play baseball.</i>" What you have now achieved is to tell the coach/manager that you KNOW it is possible you were wrong, but having made the call it stands as a judgement decision. You can't change it <i>now</i> and you won't make it up <i>later</i>. End of story. If he wants to continue with the "debate" he is now arguing a judgement decision and liable to ejection. Suggest quietly that he might want to keep himself in the game and leave the diamond, if he decides to go that route. 2. You have made yourself out to be a liar in this coach/manager's eyes. You told him you "<i>saw the ball dropped on a transfer attempt</i>", and then finally made a decision which clearly makes that view IMPOSSIBLE! He cannot respect you after this. I understand what you were trying to achieve. I believe you wanted to give the coach/manager a plausible explanation for your call, in the hope he would accept that and leave. He didn't. A better stategy is to turn the question back on the coach. When he says "<i>What did you see, Mike</i>" go back to him with "<i>I believe I saw an out, Skip. What did you see?</i>" There are many occasions when we make decisions of safe/out without actually having the proof positive in our minds. We might not <i><b>see</b></i> an actual tag, but we will have enough clues and cues that we can and should use to get the call right within the parameter that we didn't actually <i><b>see</b></i> the tag itself. We have to make a call as close as possible to what really happened. That's our job. Don't lie by saying that you saw a particular action if you really didn't. If the whole action LOOKED like an out to you, however, saying that you believed you saw an out is a legitimate response. When the coach/manager then tells you what he saw, you have given him an opportunity to tell his side of the story and he will be less confrontational for that. Look to point 1 above for the dialogue that follows the airing of the coach/manager's view of events. 3. NEVER go to your partner for help AFTER you have made the call, no matter what the admonition from the coach/manager to do so. If the situation prevents you from getting help BEFORE you've made a call, then make your best call and live with it after that. This is YOUR call make. In this case YOU have already made that call. It cannot properly be changed afterwards, regardless of what your partner saw. Do NOT put your partner in the middle of your foul ups and hope he can get you out from under! That is totally unreasonable and unfair. Your partner gave you the opportunity to back out, when he said "What do you want?" You should have taken it. Better still, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. If I had been your partner, I would have told you "<i>Mike, I'm not going to make that call from 130 feet away. You have already made the call. Live with it. We can discuss it later, if you like.</i>" I'm NOT going to put myself in the middle of this situation, regardless of what I <i>think</i> I saw at that distance. If you are ever PU in this situation, my best advice is "don't pick up the shitty end of the stick". Mike, this is one of those cases where umpire dignity IS more important than getting the call right. Your career progress, and the game itself, WILL survive the odd bad call. It is possible that your career progress may NOT survive poorly managing what follows. I hope it does. I have it on good authority that you are a talented official on the diamond. Showing your willingness to expose yourself to criticism in order to improve is a good sign. If it is possible to do so, bite the bullet and apologise to this PU for putting him in this position. Tell him that you KNOW you handled it poorly and that you believe you can do better if the situation ever arises again. Give him an opportunity to learn to respect you all over again, by getting past this bad memory of you as an official. Five innings of good work were undone by this incident. Put it back in perspective for him and then move on. Cheers, Warren [Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 4th, 2001 at 03:30 AM] |
Re: My Review, FWIW...
Aside from Warren's very astute observations, with which I concur, I'd be ever mindful of the guy with that old 10ga with 3" magnums.
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Re: Re: My Review, FWIW...
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It is equally a shame that an admitted "quality response post" has to be mired by your jaundiced perspective of events. Like Mr Benham, I will not be drawn into your pointless contest. You persist in the <b>foolhardy</b> practice of ignoring the valuable bulk of posts in order to focus on a few words here or there that apparently offend your delicate sensitivities. Please take some of your own advice and lighten up! This board and its readers deserve better! Cheers, [Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 4th, 2001 at 02:57 PM] |
In addition to Rich Fronheiser's suggestion that the level of umpire was not relevant to this issue, I received an email inquiring if I had a problem with Seattle's BJ Moose.
Prior to responding to either, I re-read the original post and my reply. My intent, and I am guilty for not making that clear, was to respond with my opinion of the behavior of the umpire within the stated situation, set-up and all. The set-up I was addressing in the original post was Moose's comment: <b><i>"Quick background.. I am a "mid tier" 4th year umpire with my association. I have 400 Assoc games, and maybe 40 or more at the level of THIS GAME. I am assigned a game in the Connie Mack State Tourny, 17-18 year olds, very high level, all varsity players. I am teamed with a VET 20 year guy, D1 tier. (Highest)."</b></i> I believed at the time that the author was saying that he was in over his head, and I replied accordingly. I have no problem with Mr. Moose. I understand from mutual acquaintances, who I respect ,that he is a competent and credible umpire. My comments should have included a note that they were directed at umpire behavior, generically, and not necessarily at the Great Antlered (horny?)One. In retrospect I should have made more clear some of the assumptions as well as some of the comments I made. Otherwise, I stand by my post in that: 1. The timing of the call was uncharacteristic of calls made at beyond Varsity-Level championships, 2. The call is not one that should be subject to appeal and reversal, and 3. The posture and comments by the D1 plate man were probably a notice that he didn't want to get involved. Garth [Edited by GarthB on Feb 4th, 2001 at 09:58 PM] |
Moose,
Just want to say what I think and let the others spat. Too bad every little scenario or post turns into someone taking offense. Anyway, I would not seek to change call. You must suck it up. You had the lapse of judgement. You had the bad positioning. You had the hurried call. You had the poor mechanics. You had something but the right call (as so the manager and yourself admit). But I think that anyone who does not do there job out in the field is doing a worse injustice of putting the plate umpire on the spot like that. If you end up keeping the call, it looks to the fans and opposing manager that the PU either agreed with you because he is scared to overturn it or they think he wasn't paying attention (and they will let him have it since he is close to the stands). If you turn the call, then everyone thinks that it was the PU who gave you the info and they get on him for it. It just ain't right. He deserves better then to be drug into a lose-lose situation because someone (BU) erred. The worse he can get for you NOT going to him is the fans just question to themselves, "why didn't the BU ask him"? It has been my experience that some times BU get to accustomed to feeling that the PU has his back that he goes to him for every little thing that is questioned. Just my opinion Max |
Killing The Messenger
I think that the comments that say Bull Moose may have been in over his head tend to discourage any of us from admitting our mistakes. Sometimes we might not know the proper mechanics. Other times we may know the mechanics but execute poorly. We just have a bad day or perhaps just a bad call. I have done a lot of Connie Mack ball and I know the tougher games are regional tournaments or playoffs where one or both teams have no clue about an umpire's history, attitude or expereince. Thus they are much less tolerant or understanding. More is at stake as well.
My initial reaction was that this call was not one where the PU should be consulted. Yet part of me said my natural tendency if I completely missed a call would be to get help. Although this clearly is not the PU's call I wonder about Papa's admonition "...Certainly, the plate umpire doesn't have a clue at his distance. (He likely wasn't watching anyway.)" Partly as a result of FED ball's slide violation I would be more likely be watching the action at second albeit this is under OBR. Jim/NY |
It doesn't matter
It doesn't matter what you see behind the plate.
It can be clear as day that the fielder drops the ball. It doesn't matter. Once that runner is called out, he is out. This is not a correctable error. Go back to the scenario I mentioned in a previous post. Let's assume the fielder drops the ball, but then recovers after R1 arrives and throws the ball away (to first base), either in play or out of play. R1 is called out on the original play. The BR now tries to advance. He gets to 2nd or 3rd. NOW the offensive coach comes out. What do you do? Do you award bases to R1, awarding him what you THINK he would've gotten? This isn't spectator interference we're talking about here. Correcting the original bad call ISN'T making the right call. It's making the wrong call and then making another wrong call. And the plate umpire shouldn't have said, "What do you want?" He should've said, "What the h3ll do you want?" I agree entirely with Max. As the BU you just put the PU into a situation that isn't his to begin with and one he can't win, to boot. Rich |
Re: Killing The Messenger
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But for the record I must say, under oath, unequivacably: I WAS NOT in over my head. I intent to BE humble, but, boys, I am fully qualified and capably to handle THAT LEVEL. The purpose of the disclosure was to create a complete picture, and as a REASON that I chose (rightly or wrongly) to seek the counsel of "Crusty 20 year guy". I am newer at that level, yes. (I mean.. how many ML umps were first year last year.. when they biffed, did everyone cry, "Send them back to AA"). I biffed the call, big time. Meaning I GUESSED. I violated the defn of JUDGEMENT, which is correctly interpreting what you see. I had a neuron misfire. It could have easily happened to Mr. 20 year as well. (Like it does, anyway). |
True Confessions
After reading everyone's responses, I felt that I had to add my two cents in. I think that all of us at one time or another have made a bad call in similar circumstances. Unfortunately, your call happened in a championship game which added to your grief. Do I think that it was because the game is at a level too high for your experience? I can't answer that based on one blown call. Did you blow the call because of the pressure of the game or because of anticipating the play? I think that the important lesson here, which I think you learned, is to watch the play, make a determination and then make a call. Obviously, you anticipated a routine play that back fired on you. Experience here is a great teacher, and I bet that you will never make that same error again.
Have a good 2001 season. Regards Phil |
Well said, Phil. Well said.
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<b> "But what is YOUR review of what I did"? </b> Moose - True Confessions - Isn't that a magazine? Moose with the exception of yourself (Big Grin!), we are all human. With that said we are going to make mistakes. No matter how many clincis we attend, rules meetings etc. we will inevitably make a mistake. The problem is that an <b> UMPIRES MISTAKE </b> is <i> Blown way out of proportion </i>. You mentioned that the team went on to score 4 or 5 runs. Moose were on "the hill" giving up those runs? Were you in the field? You get my drift. Now when we are unsure of a call, the first thing to check is : Did the offense or defense "tip their hand". In other words is it obvious as to what the correct call is even though we are unsure. In your thread it appears this was not the case. Also, in upper ball, the kids are probably instructed not to "tip their hands". I know when I played even if I was out I would always give the appearance as though I were safe. Papa C listed those circumstances when we can change a call. Your thread doesn't appear to be one of those. Now what does this all mean? When it's <b> OUR CALL </b> right, wrong, or indifferent we must now "sell it" even though we are unsure. You call what you saw and "live with it". As you mentioned you do not need anybody to tell you what you did wrong as you did a fine job of this yourself. All one can do is learn so that we do not make the same mistake twice. In your example; you shouldn't have gone to your partner since this was not his call. The PU's responsibility on a DP is to watch for interference on the part of r1. The BU's responsibility is to call the out / safe at second and then turn and make the call at first. Somtimes we just have to "eat it". Remember the AlCS BOSOX / Yanks same thing - make the call and learn from it. What I find interesting is that we can make a bad call and F1 serves up a "Gopher" Ball and in a way he / she is off the hook because everyone is screaming about the play before. As they say - it comes with the territory. Pete Booth |
Holiness 1 Buff Emperor (et al) 0
[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness
Nothing undermines a whole association more than a big call that is blown in an important game. --------- So let me get this straight, says the JURY FOREMAN, who knows NOTHING about baseball or umpiring. The choices are, Make a MISTAKE, do not change the mistake, and allow TEAM A to be punished for your mistake or. Make a MISTAKE, correct the mistake, put the situation at a point that would accurately and exactly reflect a point in time in a parallel universe in which the mistake was not made.. IOW -> the end result is the CORRECT CALL. Mmmm.. let me think.... |
Peter, again you care not about the umpire but the mighty buck.
If I have to select umpires, I want the one who will make his calls and suck up the ones he blows. This Horsesh!t about get it right at all costs is wrong, wrong, wrong. Also, this will not help the Moose move up. It will do the exact opposite. I am the "Big Dawg" and the assignor for my association. I had someone who was in Moose's position (new to the level, but a good umpire) and had a similar play. He came looking for help, I told him to go away that he had the call. He tried to ask again. Well, he is not working our top level this season. Until he learns that part of umiring means making errors and sucking it up, he will NEVER be a good umpire - period. If I keep bailing him out, how will he learn? We had a situation in 1997, game 7 of the finals, 4 man crew, bottom of the 9th, visitors up by 2 runs. There is a play at first that U1 blew, giving the home team a runner (he even admitted he booted it). What a time to boot one! Well, of course the visitor's manager comes out and asks for him to get help. He sticks by his call. Well, next batter hits a 2-run home run (of course) and home team wins in 11 innings. A month later over a few beers, the visiting manager said he felt screwed by the call. However, he respected the fact that the umpire stood by his call. He knew U1 booted it, and was pissed. However, he said if he was umpiring, he would not have asked for help. he said that this stuff evens out, but that it still hurt. Well, this same umpire is still working playoffs and was scheduled for the plate for game 7 this year, but the series only went 6. While we don't have the coaches pick the umpires here, that coach wanted that umpire back on the diamond. Outside of DC, this attitude of please everyone don't cut it. This is baseball, not politics. |
Respectfully, HHH, I do not agree with the quote.
A blown call may undermine the respect and confidence for an individual umpire, however it is unlikely to undermine any respect for the association. Further depending on the level of repect that was alreaady there for a particular official before the call, no loss of repsect may result at all. They may not like the call, but respect is still there. Players actions and thoughts are, for the most part, intense but short lived. I do not believe the association is on their minds. (Ever) --- Now, for the jury foreman. there are few things council may wish to point out before the jury renders their verdict. 1. Umpires decisions which involve judgement are final. No further arguement is to be entertained. Refer to Rule 9.02(a) of the OBR. Further officiating comes down to respect. Naturally that respect takes time and takes the confidences of the players in you ability to officate at a consistently high, and impartial level. With this respect comes a duty to get your calls right. As humans we make mistakes and as umpires we must LIVE AND LEARN from them. Nothing will cause a loss of respect quicker than to second guess yourself on a ball field and seeking Help. If you reverse a judgement call at the request of one manager, the next judgement call is going to followed by another request of and so on.... 2. Umpires decisions which appear to be in conflict with the rules may be appealed to the umpire making the apparent incorrect ruling. This umpire may seek council from his fellow umpires before rendering a final ruling, and granting or overturning the requested appeal. Refer to Rule 9.02(b,c) of the OBR. We live and die by our judgement calls and should strive to never have an appeal made against us. |
My apologies...
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I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions. I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification. I am sorry that in order to feel good about your actions in this case you are willing to prostitute your craft to the weird and wacky ideas of HHH. I am sorry, most of all, that you are simply either unable or unwilling to understand that there is more to officiating baseball than simply "getting it right" every time. Finally, I am truly sorry that I credited you with a geniune desire to improve. And, Moose, you must believe me when I say that NO-ONE is more disappointed about this than I am. I have known you through the Internet for a LONG time, and I was never more disappointed in you than I am right now. One last word, despite your keeping score in the heading of your last post this is NOT a contest of egos. This is supposed to be about helping each other to become better officials. I despair that you will ever recognise that fact. Cheers. |
Doesn't seem you were really looking...
...for honest appraisal.
Seems you were looking for someone to agree with your eventual decision on the field. Next time, tell us that, and we'll all simply ignore you. Except for Peter, who doesn't understand that some of us would rather not umpire at all than ask our assignors how "they want it done." Rich |
I can't go to bed without commenting further.
HOW can you put it right in a parallel universe when the universe you are in doesn't permit you? HOW can you be consistent when doing this? What if there are intervening plays? Why is it so hard to understand that undoing the wrong call is NOT "making the right call." You had your chance at the "right call" and you f---ed it up. Getting calls right is supposed to be placed ahead of umpire dignity, but shouldn't be done AT THE EXPENSE of umpire dignity. Rich |
HHH
The air must be thick in Washington. Firsy you say fans/coaches/players forget reversed decision bot not blown calls. Either their memory is good or bad which is it? Secondly the coach you mention that has a particulary long memory should get a life. He is clearly the south end of a north bound horse. Seven years after WW II Germany was part of NATO, surely he can forgive and move on after seven years in the Fed league. Getting the call right the first time should be emphasized ..not after the fact... Last, we don't give the leaugues a choice in who they contraact out to its us or nobody(I'm Canadian as well) |
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On the other hand, whether an out occurs following a dropped ball on a force play (or at first base on the batter-runner) is umpire judgment: Was it a transfer? Did the fielder have control of the ball? Did he hold it long enough? Was his foot on the base? Was he close enough for a neighborhood "out"? Those are judgment decisions not connected to additional data. |
"AMEN" to the last sentence!!!!!
Re: "some of us would rather not umpire at all than ask our assignors how "they want it done."
If some assigner tells me that this a game HAS to be officiated in such n' such a manner, you can bet that his phone will be ringing off the hook at end of that game, and it will probably be the last game I do for him, thankfully. Quote:
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A few years ago the association I was with had a contract to work a bunch of youth tournaments. Apparently the tourney directors became a little disenchanted with the frequency of ejections, especially by the more inexperienced umpires, and made their feelings known to my assignor. Fearing he may lose the contract, the assignor informed us before the start of a tournament that ejections were no longer allowed. This and other attempts to brownnose the TD's have resulted in 80% of the "quality" umpires leaving the association recently, myself included.
Now the assignor is in serious jeopardy because he can't provide quality officials for these tournaments, because nobody wants to work for him anymore. He put his business (he ran the umpire association for his own personal gain) ahead of umpire philosophy and it will cost him dearly. He tried to save a few extra bucks by bringing in cheaper umpires and not providing adequate training. A business can't do a very good job of keeping customers happy if its employees aren't happy. Dennis Donnelly |
True confessions
Carl I will agree with you. BUT did he hold the ball long enough?
that statment can get us into trouble with young umps. Please use the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Not criticing but sick of hearing did he have long enough? Dan |
Re: My apologies...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson
<b>I am truly sorry, Mike. I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions. I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification. I am sorry that in order to feel good about your actions in this case you are willing to prostitute your craft to the weird and wacky ideas of HHH. I am sorry, most of all, that you are simply either unable or unwilling to understand that there is more to officiating baseball than simply "getting it right" every time. Finally, I am truly sorry that I credited you with a geniune desire to improve. And, Moose, you must believe me when I say that NO-ONE is more disappointed about this than I am. I have known you through the Internet for a LONG time, and I was never more disappointed in you than I am right now. One last word, despite your keeping score in the heading of your last post this is NOT a contest of egos. This is supposed to be about helping each other to become better officials. I despair that you will ever recognise that fact.</b> __________________________________________________ ____ Warren, <b>Your condescending attitude</b> displayed in your post is not typical of you. I am so highly disappointed not in the fact that you see differently than some on the issue, but the manner in which you state it. What have you done in your time off, taken a correspondence course in righteousness? If so, you seem to be at the head of the class? Either that, or you have taken advice from the well practiced. Lighten up. Just my opinion, |
<b> "One other thing for wannabe assignors. Never compete for contracts on youth baseball. I define youth baseball as 15 and under. This is a take it or leave it proposition for the leagues. Any quality baseball/football/basketball association is trying to dump that stuff, not get more of it". </b>
Peter I guess it depends upon where one lives. In my area the 13 - 16 yr. old Youth baseball has risen dramatically over the yrs. especially in the summer months. Yes we have Legion but it's very difficult keeping a 17 / 18 yr. old division alive - You know kids are working etc. and basically this group plays on weekends only. Because of the Drug and alcohol problems prevelant in teens today, more and more parents are trying to pursuade their kids to join summer and even Fall Leagues. It keeps the kids off the streets and focused. The Youth League in my area is known as The Hudson Valley Youth Association which sponsers divisions such as 14 / under; 16 / under and 18 / under. This association has grown like "wildfire" over a 2 - 3 yr span. Last year my assignor had over 800 games to assign during a 3 month span - June through August. So you can see plenty of ball. Also, as in your area, our FEES are good. So while assignors in your area may want to dump the stuff, in my area it's an umpires "Bread and Butter". I know what you mean about LL as I have been a volunteer for 10 yrs. now and you can "Keep the Parents". Pete Booth |
Re: Re: My apologies...
I don't think Warren is off base one bit.
The thread starts with Moose asking what other people thought about his situation and call. When others have responded, Moose simply defends his position. <b> Now my position: </b> If you are a four year umpire, yes you are way over your head in a game with 17-18 year olds. That's HS age and up and the level of ball is very very brisk. No matter how many games you may have called in four years (400 or so), there is still a learning curve that must be adhered to. Last summer in State Dixie Tourneys with the same age group there were two very good umpires (four or five years in service) who made very bad calls on very easy plays simply because they have never had the situation happen and did not know how to respond to the coach. One was BOO, and the other was an infield fly which was not called. For a veteran umpire, they have had this happen several times and they would be able to explain the call to the coach quickly and backed up with a rule and there would not be a problem. Moose had a problem because he <i> guessed. </i>. A veteran umpire may have to guess on a call, but when explaining to the coach he would not <i> make up something that did not happen</i> to try and wiggle out of the call. Sometimes the best thing is to admit, coach I may have missed the call, but that's what I saw and let's play ball. Thanks David [B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson <b>I am truly sorry, Mike. I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions. I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification. |
I rarely post, just read. But I fill so tempted... A couple things. Carl, when an official sees one of the 5 things to over turn a call, does he/she automatically take over the call and over-turn, or do they need to go to their partner and let them decide with the information he was given? When does the ump seeing the violation take over jurisdiction?
Also, as a business man, a can't think of baseball in the same way. The "customer is always right" can not apply here. Hey, if the customer doesn't like your product or service, let him go else where. There is plenty of customers out there to be had. But, you better make sure that you are confident you are giving your customer the best product. And who's job is that, the assignor? So if you have a product that fails, who put that product out there to fail? Who is setting up the umpire to fail? Who is doing the quality assurance checks that most businesses do? The assignor? Now on the last note I have; everyone fails sometime or another. Even the smallest blunder seems huge at the time (if you take the game and your job serious and aim to improve). If the ump is dedicated enough he will make sure he never does that again. I can only see a few reasons why a major err would occur: Lack of mental focus Lack of training Lack of good mechanics Lack of desire Lack of hustle If someone notes any of these in an umpire, then that umpire should not be in the position of taking the "big games". Maybe they should be assigned more to lower practise games. Now if someone happens to be in a "Big game" and blows a huge play that affects the outcome of our world, and they do not show any of the above symptoms, then lets suck it up and put it down as part of the game. Not every bad call happens at the proper time. It would not be intentional, it could happen to any crew, and finally, who gives a rats *** what a coach thinks about my product?! If I am the assignor and confident, then water off a ducks back. Just a thought Max P.S. About the coach who never forgot about the blown call that cost his team the championship, I bet the other coach also remembers it in another way; that the umpire crew was the best, most professional, dedicated crew in the world! And you have their business for life. |
1. Getting help and yielding to coaches demands for appeals in situations such as this is not taught in our association.
2. Imagine a very similar scenario where the plate umpire is wrong and the base umpire is right. Again, yielding to a coach's cry for an appeal the base ump goes to the plate ump. This time a correct call is changed to a bad call. Do you think some one might remember this? 3. Mistakes in judgement are unfortunate, we try to to limit them, but they happen. They are part of the game, always have been, always will be. 4. Mr. Holines implied that no one will remember Mr. B.J Moose getting help and changing the call but they would remember if he didn't. I disagree. Both coaches will remember that Mr. B.J.Moose bowed down to a cry to get help and he will hear that cry over and over. In the future he may even have an ejection or two over cries to get help that he would not have had had he not gotten help. 5. The sugar coated option presented by Mr. Holines is in reality a poison pill. It may taste good at first, but it will kill the career of anyone shooting to move up. Proper mechanics and procedure together with rules knowledge will advance one from B to A to D1 faster than a reputation for reversing calls. BellevueBlue |
Re: True confessions
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Of course, on the ordinary high school or OBR field, where the fielder receives a throw for the out, holding the ball "long enough" is irrelevant, as you so rightly point out. I was clearly running along too fast in my earlier post. I regret any confusion I may have caused. |
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Here's the professional practice: (1/2) "the dropped ball" and "over-the-fence" ball are easy. The umpire with additional information simply comes us and tells the responsible umpire what's what. It's seen most often in the "over-the-fence" ball. (3) They also do that for misinterpreted rules. Rocky Roe called a balk because a pitcher threw from the rubber to unoccupied third base to appeal that a runner left too soon. Durwood Merrill popped over from first to correct that mistake -- without waiting to be asked. (4) Two umpires at one base: That was "modeled" by John Kibler, Ed Vargo, and Al Barlick. Kibler (U2) and Vargo (U1) both show up at second. Kibler: "Out!" Vargo: "Safe!" Manager Alston to PU Barlick: "What the hell we gonna do?" Barlick: "It's John's base; we're going with that." "Out!" is was. (5) Changing the call on a half swing, of course, is a complete no-brainer. I recommend following the professional practice. The point: They deal in games where thousands of dollars are wagered; if it's good enough for the Mafia, it's good enough for me. Lots of amateurs and green, pro-school graduates would never think of helping another umpire get a call changed, even when it's legal. "My call, my blunder!" "Umpire dignity." "I'm not messing in another umpire's business." Poppy-cock: If the play is one of those where tradition sanctions an umpire getting/giving help, by all means do so. Good Lord: The guys in "The Show" do it all the time. Why can't we? Foolin: Remember, though, we're getting help <b>only</b> when it's legal to do so. |
Re: My apologies...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bfair
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Let me <i>suggest</i> to you, so as not to appear "condescending", that it is extremely difficult to READ an <b>attitude</b> from a <u>text</u> message and get it right! The facts of this matter are that: 1. Moose asked his colleagues for a review of his actions in this game. 2. I and a number of others believed he was genuinely seeking our honest opinions on what he had done, and so we gave them. 3. The majority of those honest opinions were that he had done the wrong thing on several counts. Most chose to also add sound, constructive advice for a better way to handle the situation. I would expect nothing less of a colleague. 4. Only one opinion stated that in certain narrow circumstances Moose <i>may</i> have done the right thing. 5. Ignoring all of the opinions to the contrary, Moose then focused on that one opinion that he <i>may</i> have done the right thing and posted a 2-paragraph justification for his own actions. That's clearly self-justification. 6. Moose also titled that post with a headline that suggested his thread was in reality intended as a disguised point-scoring contest between two well-known personalities, and not a genuine spirit of enquiry in an effort to improve his game. 7. Moose and I go way back, and presuming on that acquaintance I expressed my disappointment in his attitude. I expected better of someone that I know from long experience is certainly <i>capable</i> of doing better. Please check the "sad" icon for a clearer indication of my mood when posting. Now, Steve, the fact is that most of the posters in this thread responded constructively to what appeared to be a genuine request for advice and help from a fellow official. We were all clearly duped when it became apparent from his own post that what Moose really wanted was simply to have his actions endorsed. When he was underwhelmed in response, he focused on the only apparently supportive note and used it to launch a self-justification of his actions. If it is condescending to express sorrow and deep disappointment at such duplicity from a fellow official, especially one I have been acquainted with for so long, then I plead guilty with absolutely no apology. Cheers, |
I understand where you're coming from, Peter, and I have to endure some of it with my assignor. If I call a game the way he wants me to call it, whether it be changing calls, ignoring balks, or saying the hands are part of the bat, I'll probably end up getting better assignments FROM HIM.
However, advancing to higher levels of ball probably won't happen, because the assignors of those higher levels won't put up with that type of Mickey Mouse umpiring. I guess if you're happy with the level of ball you're calling now, and don't mind selling out to the demands of Smitty the Assignor and the ignorant league administrators, I won't stop you. If you want to advance your officiating career, you better start learning how to call a game the RIGHT way. Dennis |
Too funny to explain!
I don't think I've laughed out loud at a post in a long time.
Everyone knows that Peter calls in a very unusual environment, (he's in Washington DC area enough said)./ I have to admit, if I had to worry about how I was going to call a game and which set of rules that I was going to ignore today but I have to call in my game tomorrow, that I would just give it up. I have a feeling that Mr Osborne may not be the umpire that he makes himself out to be in print. I don't say that in spite, I just know that it's impossible to be a good umpire without calling the same way day in and out. There would be no consistency! Peter may be able to get away with it because he's called in that area for quite some time and sadly he may be one of the better umpires in that area. I would only suggest that speaks very badly of the rest of the umpires that work in his association. I get the point of his post, but it just doesnt' work that way in the rest of the real world of umpiring. At least not in the areas that I have worked. Thanks David Quote:
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too funny...
Jim
You make an excellent point. Nearly all of the ball that I call is in the south and it is very high caliber ball. When I was in TX it was the same and I have friends from OK to FL who call ball and it is very high caliber. I guess that's why in the College WS and in our big tournaments where they bring in teams from the North and the West etc. the teams from the south dominate. I do remember many years ago when I called College ball in TX that the teams from Michigan etc would come to play and most of them were playing their first games and it was April. But I still don't buy the line that you have to please someone and his style of calling to move up the ladder. If you are a good umpire you will move up. Now, there will be lots of average umpires who move up because they take the "company line" approach to umpiring, and I know that for a fact - I call with them 9 months of the year. I ask myself over and over again, "how did they make it this far?" And to be honest, it makes me feel for the coaches and kids who are playing the game. But that's another thread Thanks David |
Definition of a Good Umpire
After reading/responding to 5 pages of response, I think that we all should think about "What is the definition of a good umpire?"
I read adaptable, consistent, love of game, for the money. I'm beginning to question, what is a good umpire. Do I piss off my assignor or keep my ethics? Do I overlook the rules in this league, but not in others? Do I do a good job in this league, but just go with the flow in others? I don't buy any of that stuff, I call what I see regardless of the consequences. If my assignor gets a question about my games, I answer honestly. I can live with myself because I don't have to guess what kind of umpire am I going to be today. I strive to be the best umpire that is possible, I study the rules, I constantly strive to improve my mechanics, I read everything that I can get my hands on about umpiring, I attend clinics,but I will not give up my integrity to do more games. I must be doing something right as I have umpired for 7 years now and I have more games available then I have the time to do. |
Getting back to my point about moving up vs. kissing your assignor's ass...
Last year was the first year I worked on this summer youth league. Two things that the assignor/supervisor dictated to other umpires simply went against my SOP: 1.) Balks were NOT to be called during the first two weeks of the season; 2.) Plate umpires are obligated to inform managers during the pre-game conference on what the strike zone would be that game. Now, let's say I wanted to get some good assignments in the league, so I go along with that the big dogs do. I get assigned a 17-18 league game early in the season. Pitcher balks so bad that the fans in Cleveland see it, yet I call nothing. Let's say that a big dog from the college level is watching this game for whatever reason. What is going to be his impression of my abilites? I guarantee that he'll never recommend me to work any college ball, much less anything higher than coach-pitch. I've got my limits on compromising my principles vs. kissing my assignor's ass. Dennis |
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As far as the second--I think this is just plain dumb. I don't have a problem if the coaches ask me to call a lot of strikes but I'm sure not going to explain what a strike is. I would object seriously to any assignor asking that this be done. Jim/NY |
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You were right to resist. Part of my soon to be famous document "50 ways to hack off your partner" is the plate meeting strike zone discussion. I once say a guy take a ball out of this ballbag and then give a demonstration of calling the corners. I about hurled. Besides, in 99% of cases, the announced zone and the zone as called in reality, are rarely the same thing.. So the guy could have saved his breath. |
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