Gordon posted a question to me yesterday. He asked when I thought it was appropriate to seek or offer help when umpiring. Rather than bury this somewhere, I thought this was imprtant enough to hear from everyone.

My thoughts on getting the call right: The Big Ten has instructed their football replay officials to use this logic. If 100 people looked at the play, would 100 of them say the call is obvious. I like that...would I have called it differently? If so, then the wheels get going. We have been instructed to allow our partner(s) to offer assistance and provide the same for any call that involves a rules application violation, a dropped ball on a tag or catch, pulled feet or swipe tags, fair/foul/out of play calls, home runs and touched bases.

I have worked many games where I’ve gone out on a fly ball to right center. Knowing that my partner may not be aware of his primary coverage (watching the touch at first, Int/OBS and the play at 2nd) I’ll glance over my shoulder as I run to see that he is moving. If experience tells me that the ball will drop (the fielder is slowing down or I hear the infield yelling “Two”) I will steal another glance. Then I will bust home for my coverage on a an overthrow play at the plate. More than once, I’ve SEEN the runner miss first or be obstructed by the first baseman and my partner was not aware. I have had to listen to coaches scream at him and then beg me to help. Depending on my mood, I’ve been guilty of shrugging my shoulders and saying that I didn’t see it. (Usually when it’s 40 degrees and an early season non-conference high school series.) I can honestly say that I have had a college partner miss this and I had to fix it. We got together after the screamer provided the necessary inducement and talked about what I saw. We got it right and talked about it again between the double header. I’ve worked many games with this guy and hope to work many more. He knows that he can do the same thing for me any day.

Now, back to the countdown. I also think that we should offer help on anything around the dish. Trapped third strikes (if my partner sees me rotate for the play, he knows that I saw it hit the ground!), fouls in the box, fouls off the batter, a CLEAR step out of the box on a bunt, a double hit of the ball with the bat, a hit batter. How many times have you seen the inside pitch buckle the batter and the catcher screens the PU, only to have the pitch hit something (the bat or hands)? I also ask my partners to watch out for balls that can take our eyes away from the play. For example, in a two man system and a runner on second, the batter hits a rope directly at the head of the field umpire. He had his hands on his knees and is only able to fall to the ground to get out of the way. He cannot see the kid touch first, the PU is looking for the touch and advance at third. BUT...a quick glance at first saves our butts when the coach appeals that the kid missed first on his way to second. “We’re going to appeal that touch at first.” “Coach, I saw it and he’s good, but if you want to have him do it, okay.” Nothing hurt and we’ve covered it without embarrassing a partner.

The bottm line is that we are doing it for the good of the game. We are not trying to one up each other or give the coaches another reason to make us look silly. There is nothing wrong with having a coach say, “Get some help on that one.” Get together and decide what needs to be done - sometimes it’s nothing and sometimes you’ll have to say, “Coach, we’ve got the same call.” I like it when my partner comes in and says, “I’ve got the same thing. He was dead.”

I’m sure that there are other plays that warrant help. I have never advocated bangers at any bag or called balls and strikes. A couple of members have said that eventually those calls will be scrutinized, as well. They already are and we have done nothing to change the human factor involved. We have, however, taken steps to correct obvious bad calls and that is a good start. Nothing turns off future umpires, fans and players more than incompetence and arrogance on the field. MLB understands that.

Are you kidding me?
 

You are going to get help based on what a coach wants?

Peace

Are you telling me that you wouldn't get together when a coach comes out and asks you to ask your partner for help (on an applicable play, as we've discussed), you'll beg off?

That is a major contention here. Some guys think that their calls are absolute and don't acre what anyone else thinks.

Do you say "No" when he asks for an appealed check swing?
Then why would you not say "Okay coach, back off and I'll ask him what he saw." Now you get together and say, "Jurassic, I saw him come off the bag and he never got back before the runner. How about you?" When he tells you that he's got the same thing, you walk back to him and say, "Coach, my partner and I agree. It was a great dig by your first baseman, but he lost the bag. The runner is safe. Now, let's play ball."

The Major Leaguers have shown us all year that they are not afraid to get help or even look like they are getting together (1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 guys) to talk. Talking with each other gives the appearance of sincerity and reflects respect for the game.

Finally, I will not offer assistance and don't expect to receive any WHEN A COACH HASN'T COME ON THE FIELD OR REQUESTED IT. The only time we are aware that there is a problem is when a coach or player lets us know! It's not a difficult concept.

Re: Are you kidding me?
 

Of course that ties into the equation. If Francona would have stayed in the dugout we would have a double and a run scoring instead of a HR.

Same for the other plays. Actually the coach asked for an explaination and ended up with the call being right. Talk about helping the umpire out.

Imagine what would have happened to Marsh if the play would have been uncontested and all of TV world knew it was a HR and it didn't get called. His nickname would be Denkinger.

BAck to the 80's we go.

Thanks
David

I do not give a damn what a coach wants. If my partner wants help, he will ask. If I need help, I will ask. The coach has nothing to do with that decision. And it might not be appropriate to ask for help in many situations. Coaches ask for help on many plays where another umpire could have made a call if they saw something but did not.


Depending on the call and situation, it is absolute. If my partner sees my call, what the heck is he watching?

At the HS level, I am not asking for a checked swing help just because a coach asks for it. For one, they ask for them when it is so obvious there was no swing. Or better yet they want the PU to get help after they have ruled the batter made a swing.

Windy, I have been doing this awhile. I know when I need help or when I need to give help. It is a pregame discussion I bring up every single game. So if there is an issue with a pulled foot, we have already discussed that situation before the game.

I have also seen many situations where they did not ask for help either. I have yet to see an umpire ask for help at the ML level for a pulled foot or a dropped ball. They have gotten together on interference calls or rulings on homeruns or where to advance runners, but not on basic plays. I certainly have not seen ML Umpires asking for help on checked swings because the coach wanted it. They tend to do that on their own.

I guess the part that I find disturbing is that you seem to base a lot of things on what the coach does. Coaches do and say things to get an advantage. Coaches will see what strings they can pull from you. The last person I give a damn about is what the coach thinks. They sometimes have legitimate gripes and I have been officiating long enough to recognize that. But just because a coach wants me to ask for help is silly to me.

Peace

Re: Re: Are you kidding me?
 

I did not see the play on TV. I did hear it on the radio (live). I do not know what came first, the coach coming out or not. But I do know if I had information to give my partner, the actions of the coach would be irrelevant.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Are you kidding me?
 

I think I understand what you are saying, but the actions of the coach would matter.

If you had information, you would tell me you would go to the BU and tell him, its a HR even if no one had disputed the call?

I don't believe that you would do that.

The coach asks for the umpire to explain the call and then if the umpire wants to ask for clarification etc., he asks.

That's the way its always worked in my leagues and the way MLB is starting to do now.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are you kidding me?
 

Maybe with you, not with me and many other umpires I know. Sorry, I just cannot go along with you on this one.

Yes, if it was obvious from my point of view it was not. Why award the wrong bases when you have something to offer. Now of course in most situations that is not the case.

I guess you do not know me very well. Or better yet, you have not seen me work any games either.

He might get an explanation if he comes out with the right attitude. But it is not "automatic."

I am not sure why there is the constant obsession with what the MLB Umpires do. If they do not ask for help until the coach complains, that is on them. I know I have and will give help or ask for help if I have some obvious information that will help my partner or I make a call. The coach does not factor in that decision.

Peace

My head hurts from reading his posts.

David, you stated what most of us know. If a coach comes out and asks us what happened, we will answer it. If he is reasonable and asks us to check with our partner, most respectable umpires will do it. Once you've reached a certain level of maturity, you understand that no one came to see you work.

Apparently, the quality of coaches he sees and the partners he work with merit his attitude on the field. Maybe there is a bigger reason why he won't offer help. The same reason I woudn't hire Stevie Wonder to paint my house or Charles Manson to babysit.

I do not give a damn what a coach wants. If my partner wants help, he will ask. If I need help, I will ask. The coach has nothing to do with that decision.
[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that you would get help if no one questioned the original call? Unless someone is questioning the original call, why would you need to go get help?


I have seen them get help on basic plays. Last year on a line drive down the first base line that stays in the park, 1B umpire ruled it a foul ball. After manager came out to question the call, the umpires got together, ruled it a fair ball, put the batter on second and scored a run.

Also, I have never seen them get together and conference on a play unless a manager or player is questioning the original call.

Personally, I never ask for an appeal on a check swing unless the catcher requests it, and most the time, it is the coach telling the catcher to ask for the appeal. If it's not close, then I just deny the appeal. I've seen very few MLB umps ask for an appeal unless a catcher requests it first or it's a checked swing dropped third strike.

I'd like to believe you, Jeff, so please tell us about a few times that you went to get help or offered help on a call without first a coach or player asking to get help.

As much as you would like to think that a coach, player or fans have no infulence on you, they do a little. I don't think anyone is saying that you go to get help every time a coach asks, but unless someone is questioning the original call then why would you need to get or give help?

WCB & Dave are correct - I think we have to be "respectful" to a manager's requests. Does that mean we MUST get help everytime they request it??? Absolutely NOT!. However, I think if they come out on you, you need to listen closely to what he is saying and consider the following:

1. Am I 110% sure I got the play right
2. Is this a play/situation that it is even possible for me to go to my partner for help
3. Could he have possibly had a better angle than me on that play

Communication skills plays a big role in this as well. Remember, perception is reality and if you decide not to get help after a coach comes out on you, make sure you thoroughly explain to him why you can't and/or won't do it. Just my opinion

Why not? You would get help or give help because you have an obviously wrong call. Like the ball being completely dropped on a force out or the ball hitting the ground or not hitting the ground on a swinging strike.

Let me ask you this, did they get help "because" the call was questioned by a player or was that already the case? I know of many situations where a coach complains and no one asks or receives help on a call. I am not so sure it is a result of the gripping from the coach.

The catcher pointing is not really an appeal. You see catchers at the HS and college level point to the umpire because they see it on TV. I do not consider a point as a real request for an appeal in the first place. I ask all the time regardless of what the catcher does. If the catcher pops up and screens me from the view of the batter, I will ask myself. The catcher pointing has not bearing on when I ask for an appeal. As a matter of fact, I have denied appeals if it is clear the batter did not go at all after a pitch.

I asked for help just this past season. I was the PU and there was a pitch in near the dirt. I obviously did not see if the catcher catch the ball (neither did the batter) and the batter took off for first. There was a runner on second base and the runner advanced to 3rd. The batter was safe at first because of a bad throw not caught. My partner immediately starting walking toward me (This is a D1 Umpire that worked a State Final this year). He gave me a signal as well that we talked about in the pregame that is commonly used in these parts. I went to him immediately and got help. He said that the ball was caught and I ruled the batter out. The coach came out only to complain that the runner on that was on second base and advanced to third should return. We explained to the coach this was a live ball and runners could advance at their own risk. The coach went right back to the dugout without further discussion.

I guess this tie into my officiating background. As a basketball official it is very common to have a player or coach to question your calls. I do not change those or ask for help because they want me to. As a football official (Referee) almost every play a kid comes to me and claims they are being held. I know that does not change my mind. Many times I tell them why I did not make the call and what I saw. I know I do not care if a player thinks he was not tagged or his foot was on the base if I am in good position to see the entire play. I will ask when I do not have a really good angle or know my partner is watching on obvious plays, but I do not ask for help or want help based on what a coach does. Sorry, it does not.

Peace

OBR

9.02 c) The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing. Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail

The catcher comes up pointing to the base ump on a checked swing and you don't think this is an appeal? What's he doing, giving directions to the nearest McDonald's? Of course it's an appeal! And if you don't ask, you're the fool. What can happen? Either your partner agrees with you, or you get another strike. Both of these are good things.

Do I sometimes go to my partner for help without a coach asking? Sure, but with the exception of a checked swing, it's rare.

In other cases, I make my call. Sometimes I have to do that without being 100% sure, because whether I'm 100% sure or not, they are looking for a call from me. If no one hollers about it, we go on. I don't say, "Gee I wasn't 100% sure, let me go check with my partner." If the coach or the player is OK with my call, so am I.

But if a coach comes out and reasonably asks if I could get help, or if I had a clear view, or if I am 100% sure, I will absolutely go to my partner.

And yes, baseball is different from football or basketball in this sense.

A coach absolutely has an effect on whether you might ask for help, and he should. JR, I have battled Windy here, although it's almost always more on style than substance. But on this one, he is 100% correct and you are WAY off base. And I don't need help from my partner to see that one. But if the coach wants me to ask, I will.

ATL Blue,
You are right and hilarious too! :)

WCB, ATL BLUE, Bob LYLE and Sal Giaco all agree on the same thing. I think it's a safe bet we have a consenses on this one. JR - I don't know who you are but I think you've got to trust us on this one :)

My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules? Because referencing OBR is irrelevant to the games I work. I only work games in the spring for the most part. When I do work in the summer which is very rare, they use FED and NCAA Rules. I do not care what the OBR rulings on this issue are. It does not apply to me.

He can point all he wants to. At the FED level and rules, the umpire decides if there is to be an appeal made. At the college level we encouraged to ask for an appeal almost all the time. But I never ask for an appeal if I have already determined the batter struck at the ball. It is ultimately the umpire's decision, not the fact they simply request.

Who said anything about them being "reasonable?" This is not an issue as to how they come out and how they act; this is about do you ask for help because they come out. My answer is still no. Not because I do not listen to them or I have to stick to what I feel, but I am not asking for help every time a coach asks for it, because it is always not appropriate or reasonable from my point of view. There are many situations that as an umpire I am going to make a call because I have some responsibility (or my partner does as well) at what is taking place. A perfect example is when a batter hits a ball and the ball comes close to hitting him or hits him. In all the mechanics I know of, when that happens both the PU and the BU can call the ball dead. But you seem to have a coach that wants help on a play that is very obvious and would have been called dead if a batter touched a ball. Now the PU might make the decision if the batter is out, but it does not eliminate the possibility of the BU saying "dead ball!" Why do I need to appeal a situation like that when I have discussed that very play in pregame and we come to the conclusion that is the proper thing to do? Every time the ball bounces funny, it seems like a coach wants us to believe that our partner is going to help on a play they are watching in the first place. It would be about as absurd as asking for help on a balk call, that is everyone's call. You do not appeal calls that we have responsibility for. If you do, so be it.

I am glad you have confidence in your point of view and the point of view of those that agree with you. But I have had many HS coaches ask for appeals when it is not appropriate at all. Not only is the calling umpire on top of the play, the other umpire is not at all in position to help. Coaches have no influence with me. If they do with you, so be it. Life goes on and so will the game of baseball. But I will do what has worked for me and received the respect first with my partners and anyone else that gives a damn. The fact you used an OBR reference shows we are not on the same umpiring page to begin with.

Peace

Let me handle this one boys...

On an appealed check swing or any appealable play the unwritten rule of conduct has long been:

In Fed and NCAA, you should grant the appeal.
In Professional and OBR governed ball, you must grant the appeal.

Now, if you don't grant the appeal in Fed or NCAA, you are not showing the players and coaches that you are 100% certain and won't be second guessed. You are giving them the reason to not hire you anymore. You have just learned that you are the lone wolf with regards to this stance. Ask Alstadt, Collis or any of the guys you admire. Those guys will tell you that you are spitting in the wind here.

An appeal is not about changing your call. Most of the time it simply reinforces it.

JR,
You are sinking deeper and deeper with each post on this subject. Regardless of the level, if the manager asks you to get help on a check/half swing that you, the PU, rule "ball, he didn't go" - you MUST ask your partner by RULE. That goes for FED, NCAA & OBR and whatever other baseball rules there may be. And yes, if you don't, the manager can PROTEST the game.

Now that we've cleared that up, I understand your point about coaches asking you to get help "every time the ball bounces funny". Especially at the younger levels, inexperienced coaches try to do this often. However, as you move up, things will change a bit and you'll deal with some managers that only come out for "legitimate" reasons. Sometimes, that can be a wake up call that perhaps you may have missed something. Use your best judgement and communicate with managers in the most professional manner when explaining why you will or will not get help from a partner. Just my opinion

Actually, in NCAA, you must grant it as well:

From the NCAA rulebook, Rule 3-6-e:

e. When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “checked swing.” Such appeal ONLY may be made when the plate umpire has called the pitch a ball.

What part of "coach or player" and "must" is misunderstood?

To your "credit", there is no similar rule in the FED book. But the FED ump that does not ask has far greater game management problems.

You are right about what we do with two men crews. However, I have long crewed with guys on our three man crews that say, "If I'm inside (B/C), don't come to me." personally, I think that I can make the call, but these guys are pretty awesome and I've picked up that habit. 99% of the time we will be in the position to ask for and receive the appeal. I have encountered coaches that love and hate the way that we wok that mechanic. Most of them understand and cut us a little slack because we are on top of everything.

I think Sal said it before. Most of the guys at the D1 and 2 levels are pretty good balls and strikes guys. They have great plate presence and sell their calls. Because they see the play so well, the check swing is rung up without the need to go for help. When it does occur, you are right Atl, you need to ask - it hurts nothing and usually reinforces our original call.

I just saw Triple H's reply when I posted this, so rather than add another, I'll just edit this.

PLEASE READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN. It has long been an unwritten rule...

I never quoted any book, since I don't have them in front of me. It was a rule of thumb that has guided us for a long time. Don't take any glee in thinking I slipped up. If you read what I said, you'll find that I almost always grant the appeal. (2 man with the field ump in C and a right hander checks his swing...good luck selling that when you have no angle!) So, I'm not sure how I am dead wrong. Most pro crews have 4 men and terrific angles. In Rookie, Class A and AA Ball we got killed on this same call all of the time. We had to appeal and we were rarely in position to make an absolute call.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Oct 21st, 2004 at 03:03 PM]

My apologies to JR and HHH - I was wrong about the FED part but correct on the NCAA and OBR. I do not work games played under FED rules so I should have not spoke in reference that. However, I do agree that if asked, at any level, you should extend the courtesy. That's just my opinion.

I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests.


Are you sure about that?

Yes they do.

I really do not want to make this about the level, but I work my share of JUCO and D3 Baseball over the years and coaches at that level are much more "calculating" and "premise" about what they complain about. If you do not do the job, you will not be back. So I am aware of the differences. But I work much more FED baseball because I choose to and that is the basic philosophy that I use. I still find it very silly to ask for an appeal because a coach thinks you missed something.


And it is my opinion that I can use my judgment and decide when I need help or should give help. Sorry, but coaches are not the barometer of that decision making process. Coaches ask for help on basic plays (like a tag play at second base); I am not doing that when the request is stupid and dumb to being with.

This discussion was not about whether we ask for help, but if the coaches determine when and if we ask for help. They never will in my philosophy.

Peace

I know.
 

I never debated the different codes. So from my point of view this was not about the rules difference, just a philosophy. I adhere to the rules that I am under. I do not work OBR and do not try to speak for that level. I think we all need to realize that we all do not work under the same codes.

And the reason I take that position at the FED level, is because most of the appeal requests are very bogus. Coaches do not influence that. I did not realize that it was a real issue. I always ask for appeals when I see it necessary (pulled foot, checked swings, dropped balls). I guess that is what I get for assuming. ;)

Peace

This discussion was not about whether we ask for help, but if the coaches determine when and if we ask for help. They never will in my philosophy.

– - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No it's not, I started the thread and know what I wrote. The basic tenet of umpiring is make the proper call, not make the best call you can and live with it. Coaches and players have the right to complain when we kick calls. We have the ability to control their actions. We also have the ability to correct many of our calls. This dialogue was all about informing Gordon0307 of what we think are appropriate calls to correct. You should read the first paragraph again.

You are treading water all alone here. It's raining and the forecast calls for more of the same. You shouldn't have jumped ship so soon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests. [QUOTE][i]

I did study FED rules when I worked games that were governed by FED rules - that was six years ago. As I stated, I apologize for mispeaking in regards to half swing apeals as it relates to FED rules.

Let me rephrase the statement. This discussion has turned into another whether we ask for an appeal because the coach has a complaint or makes and issue of a play. I am saying it should not. You can disagree and that is fine.

Peace

No the discussion turned when you - the first reply - changed the topic. You turned this away from what we should do and when we should do it, to a p*ssing contest with coaches. Don't pass the buck!

Windy,

This is not about passing the buck or putting blame on anyone. I found your comments silly when you talked about the role coaches should play in whether we ask for appeals. It is very clear we do not see eye to eye on this or many other topics. It is OK. Just like many people in our area do not agree on things and function, we can do the same.

I still find it silly that anyone would consider coaches' opinions as it relates to whether they ask for appeals. All that seems like is catering to a coach instead of using common sense and knowing your own ability and your position.

Peace

Do you even remember.....
 

JR:

What did you have for lunch? Apparently it wiped out all memory of what you wrote this morning:

Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 01:53 PM:
My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules? Because referencing OBR is irrelevant to the games I work. I only work games in the spring for the most part. When I do work in the summer which is very rare, they use FED and NCAA Rules.

I then posted the applicable NCAA rule (which you specifically asked for), and also stated that the FED does NOT have the same rule.

JR, at Oct 21st, 2004 03:09 PM, then posted:
I never debated the different codes. So from my point of view this was not about the rules difference, just a philosophy.

Gee, you just said that OBR rules don't matter, that you work FED and NCAA. You asked for a reference from the NCAA and FED, and gave them to you, proving that in NCAA you do have to ask, and you said you never debated the different codes. Did you even remember your earlier post?

I adhere to the rules that I am under.

Apparently not, if you don't ask in NCAA games when requested by a coach OR a player!

I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests.

Your state may not allow protests. Mine does. And NOWHERE in the FED rulebook does it say you can't protest a game in FED rules, it says it is up to each state:

Rule 4-5-1: It is optional on the part of a state association as to whether protests are permitted. When allowed, protests are permitted regarding rules one through nine only. When protests are submitted to organizations which do allow the filing, such protest must be submitted using a prescribed procedure (10-2-3i). All individual and team averages shall be included in the official records, except that no pitcher shall be credited with a victory or charged with a loss in such a game, if the game is not regulation.

And I thought Windy was thick! At least he was right.

JR, when it's you against the world, it's at least worth considering betting on the world.

Re: Do you even remember.....
 

I can see you cannot recognize sarcasm. You referenced OBR like that was the only level we could be talking about. I work under both NCAA and FED Rules. I do different things under those rules. But I do not just give an appeal if the situation does not call for an appeal. It is one thing on a check swing. It is another thing all together if we have a judgment call. So I guess you think I should ask for help on an out and safe call because the coach wants you to appeal to your partner?


I did not ask for anything, I was just making a point that I do not work OBR rules. Your reference to OBR was awful assumptive.


ATL Blue, you were the one that assumed level. Not one time has anyone even given an example of an appeal situation. You just claim the coach can ask for one. There is a difference between a proper request and a request for an appeal when it is not warranted. All situations are not subject to appeals.

I should have just said it was not allowed in my state. FED rules are local for the most part. There are many rules that states can use that affect the application of the FED Rules. A great example is those states that do not allow any other bats except for wood. I do not care what other states do and it is not relevant to my point of view. What you do in your state is not my concern.

That is nice, but they do not accept appeals in my state. They did not (could have changed) in the other state I worked briefly. They make this clear in all Rules meetings and publications before the season. All umpire decisions are final. So if they allow it in your neck of the woods, so be it. That does not apply to my area. So personally it is irrelevant. I guess you assume everyone follows the same procedures. As a matter of fact we even have different mechanics that are required that are not explained in NF books.

This is not up for a vote. If you want to do something in your games and it works, you do that. When I work in my games I will do that works for me. If you want the coach to play you like a fiddle and every disagreement he asks for an appeal, you go and do that. I will not. I will pick and choose when those situations are. All situations are not subject to appeals. If they are, you are telling that you have a banger at first base and you rule the player out, the coach can ask for your partner's opinion and you can give it to them? If that is what you think, you then do that. I will not. You know Bobby Brown has a song awhile back and said, "you can do what you want to do...it's my prerogative." And considering that I will never work a game with you and you do not live in the area I do, I guess I do not have to worry about what the "world" thinks about this issue or any for that matter.

Peace

I have worked baseball for many years and have never had an appeal WITHOUT a coach or player requesting it.

You can disagree all you want. You are alone.

I would get a refund from whatever school taught you how to umpire.

WCB:

I don't know who "you" is since you didn't quote any material. But if your statement is true -- and you always wait for an appeal -- you're not keeping up with PBUC mechanics.

There are two possibilities:

On a wild pitch where the half swing may be called a third strike with the batter becoming a batter-runner, the umpire crew may:

(a) have the plate umpire ask for help immediately without waiting for the catcher/coach to appeal his call of "No, he didn't go"; OR

(b) direct the appropriate base umpire to say "Yes, he went" (if he judged the half swing was a strike) without waiting for the plate umpire to appeal.

Advanced pro crews use (b); in my association, we use (a).

The MLBUM, which you are fond of quoting, has similar mechanics, but without giving the crew a choice of (a) or (b):

8.7 In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

Now, if your comment "never appealed without a request" refers to your never asking for help because you were blocked, then I suggest that's an even worse scenario: EVERYBODY gets blocked on the half swing now and again.

As to whether the appeal <i>must</i> be granted: Your "rule of thumb" (don't ask me if I'm inside) also doesn't take into account current PBUC mechanics.

In the three-man system, for example, the plate umpire is directed to ask the umpire on the line for the appeal without reference to the handedness of the batter. The umpire in your crew shouldn't have a choice because when he's inside, no appeals should be directed at him.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Oct 21st, 2004 at 05:54 PM]

Thanks for the example, but now, if your partner had not given you the signal or been walking towards you like that, would you have gone to him on your own to get the help, or would someone have had to question your call to get you to do that?


But the question is, if you did not get that good angle, and no one questioned the call, would you still go to your partner to get help?

I'm sorry but I have never once seen an umpire make a call, then call time, confer with his partner and then change the call without anyone asking.

[quote] And it is my opinion that I can use my judgment and decide when I need help or should give help. Sorry, but coaches are not the barometer of that decision making process. Coaches ask for help on basic plays (like a tag play at second base); I am not doing that when the request is stupid and dumb to being with.
[/Qoute]

Can you please quote anyone that says you should get help on those plays. Again, no one is saying that you go to get help everytime a coach comes out. What some of us are trying to say is that when you do go to get help, generally it is because someone has a problem with the original call.

gsf23,

You can ask this question 50 ways if you like. The answer is still going to be the same. If there is an obvious mistake like the ball being dropped and everyone sees the ball lying on the ground, yes I will provide help. And the coach does not have to be the catalyst to get that help. The coach plays no part in what I do on the field. It might be good for laughs and giggles, but the coach is not the reason I would give help on "obvious" plays.

Peace

And you wonder why your credibility is shot?

Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 01:53 PM:
My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules?
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 04:34 PM
I did not ask for anything, I was just making a point that I do not work OBR rules.
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 03:09 PM,
I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 04:34 PM
I should have just said it was not allowed in my state. FED rules are local for the most part.

(Actually, FED rules are national with certain options. Yes, states adapt them, but the rules themselves are NATIONAL. That's why they are published by the NATIONAL High School Federation).

A great example is those states that do not allow any other bats except for wood.

(And what states would that be?)

If you want the coach to play you like a fiddle and every disagreement he asks for an appeal, you go and do that

Where in the world did Windy, Sal, myself or ANYONE else on this board EVER suggest this? Good grief, man, all of us have worked at least the D-1 level (Windy claims higher, that's between you and him, I don't care). Do you think ANY of us would have made it to that level if we let every coach's gripe of a banger at first turn into an appeal? Do you honestly believe that we would have made it to that level if every coach "played us like a fiddle"? Please assume we have SOME sense, as do our assignors.

We are discussing checked swings (where in OBR AND NCAA rules, you MUST check, contrary to your view of NCAA rules as stated earlier). We are discussing plays such as the A-Rod interference type of call. We are discussing the HR/GRD call like the other night. We are discussing calls where your partner may have information that could help you, but he is not about to step on your call.

Wake up and get a clue. I'm tired of trying to lead the blind here. A lot of people with a lot of experience tried to give you advice to help make you a better ump. But you know better than all of us so you tell the world how you are right and how every other more experienced umpire is wrong. I'll call Dave Yeast and see if I can get you on the speaker's list for the NCAA Rules Clinics in January. I'm sure ALL of the NCAA umps would like some more of this wisdom. Or maybe you could come work the Southern Umpires clinic in February. We could always use comic relief.

And when Tony Thompson calls with games for me next spring, I'll tell him he needs to bring JR in from Illinois, because he knows MUCH better than do any of the umps in his association when to ignore a coach and not grant an appeal.

But you did say something that was VERY true:

I will never work a game with you

And I thank God for that.




(Gee, I've been driven to sounding like Windy. To everyone else, sorry!)

If my credibility was shot, I would not be an elected official in the associations I belong. I would not be on the verge of the possibly being an IHSA Clinician and I certainly would not have worked all the levels that I do in all my sports. I also would not be able to speak at every IACAO clinic (which was featured as the model for all clinics by the NF) in all my sports. Now everything I am telling you can be very easily confirmed and is not a generalization.

We have gone round and round about this issue and if you choose to continue you will do it by yourself. But I have been very successful as an official in all my sports and especially as an umpire. You used all these silly examples and stated your position. Who really cares what the hell you think, I sure do not. I am not letting a coach dictate to me what I know is best. I have learned there are a lot of guidelines that people use to make decisions. You can be a rulebook official or you can use common sense and know when you need help or do not need help. I just watched a play in the NLCS that might have been wrong, I did not see the 1st base umpire ask for help of any umpire and LaRussa was out and argued a little on the play. The umpire might have been screened, but you see he stuck with his call.

So ATL Blue, if that is what the do in Georgia good for you. I will not really think much about baseball after this World Series and I will not be concerned about your opinion or anyone else's opinion as it relates to this issue when the spring comes. Do what you feel is best and my "credibility" will be intact with the people that matter. And they do not apply to people like you on the internet.

Peace

I have never understood this "mechanic". WHY should you not want the PU to come to you inside? If you didn't CLEARLY see a swing, you rule: "No, he didn't", right? You are agreeing with the PU, and what's the problem? If, however, your partner somehow gets screened and even from B/C you can clearly see that the batter offered, you "get it right" AND ring up another strike.
Like someone else posted, both of these outcomes are good things.

Even if as an umpire, you do not get the angle and you miss the call, but nobody lodges a complaint about it, then yes you are going to leave it alone.

However, I think both Jim Joyce and Randy Marsh absolutely did the 100% correct thing after Terry F(Boston's Manager) lodged his complaints on the two original calls. Both of them (Joyce and Marsh) put their ego's aside and went to their other crew members to get call the right no matter what Yankee fans and players would think of them.

In today's world whether umpiring at the MLB all the way down the high school level, umpires are taking a more proactive approach at getting calls right even if it means changing the original call.

Players play too hard and coaches coach too hard to not deserve this type of umpiring by all of us as umpires.

GREAT JOB ALCS UMPIRING CREW!!!!

Papa C.,
That was well put, as expected. I didn't realize that you were responding to my posts again, but welcome.

I actually work Minor League baseball. I can only tell you what mechanic that is being taught to us here and at the major college level.

As I said, I work with multiple NCAA crews, depending on the conference. On one crew, we NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B. I feel that I can make the call from that angle, but I've deferred to their experience. In that conference, we have a couple of coaches that go apesh*t when that call gets made from that angle.

For the majority of my games, I will go to the applicable official for the check swing appeal. However, I can't recall the last time that I asked for the appeal without a coach or layer prompt. It's not that I'm better or never get screened, it's just that if I do, I was taught that if you don't see a strike, you call ball. Then they appeal. I work hard to insure that this doesn't happen, but have never had a coach complain about the mechanic. they understand that they are entitled to the appeal in that situation and aware that I resepct them enough to grant it. Now, if it ever happens when my partners are in B or C...

WCB:

Unless you work in an unaffiliated minor league, I believe your comment about how you handle half swings is disingenuous. I know Mike Fitzpatrick, and I know his evaluators enforce the PBUC mechanics, one of which I quoted in my orignal post.

You say that some NCAA coaches go berserk when the plate umpire checks with an umpire inside the diamond. On the one crew, where you "NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B," if I were one of the NCAA coaches and you refused to check, I would protest the game, citing 3-6e: "When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire <i>must</i> [my emphasis] seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire ragarding the 'checked swing.'" Whether it was a check swing is judgment; whether you refused to ask is evidence of a blatant disregard of black letter law.

After the protest, which I would win assuming I lost the game, I would call the conference supervisor and be sure you never worked one of my games again: "Hey, Tommy, can you believe it? They just wouldn't appeal when I asked. Say, who are those guys? Did they come in on a turnip truck or what? I know it's hard to find enough warm bodies these days, but...."

Finally, why not adopt the PBUC guideline and ignore whether U3 is in C or U1 is in B? Ask the umpire on the line, whichever side B1 is hitting from.

BTW: Did you know that I invented the names of the positions? I'm surprised to see you, a "professional umpire" using them since the professional schools have studiously avoided those labels.

Instead of saying "Go to B with a runner on first," they prefer: "Move into the infield on the right side of the diamond, station yourself on a line between the plate, the skin of the mound, and the outfield, and stand perhaps 15 to 20 feet behind the rubber."

When I trained umpires for a PONY league, I got tired of the latter and switch to the former. Life is so much better now.

Because of the length of your reply, I will respond to each thought or query. I will attempt to be brief.

Papa C.:
Unless you work in an unaffiliated minor league, I believe your comment about how you handle half swings is disingenuous. I know Mike Fitzpatrick, and I know his evaluators enforce the PBUC mechanics, one of which I quoted in my orignal (sp) post.

WCB:
I have spent the last few years working for several independent leagues. When I graduated from pro school, we were still using the UDP system, but I am very familiar with the PBUC format and materials. I mentioned that only as a retort to your implication that I was unaware of what is being done in professional ball. The rest of my reply dealt with NCAA mechanics.

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Papa C:
You say that some NCAA coaches go berserk when the plate umpire checks with an umpire inside the diamond. On the one crew, where you "NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B," if I were one of the NCAA coaches and you refused to check, I would protest the game, citing 3-6e: "When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must [my emphasis] seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire ragarding (sp) the 'checked swing.'" Whether it was a check swing is judgment; whether you refused to ask is evidence of a blatant disregard of black letter law.

WCB:
Most of the coaches I see recognize that the call is not the same from that angle. They love it when it helps them and hate it when it is called against them. “C’mon, he doesn’t have the angle there.’ is the usual reply. We’ve adapted to their concerns, not the other way around. They also know that a lot of crews will have an unwritten rule, “If you are in B or C, agree with me, that way they have nothing to ***** about.” I have no problem granting the appeal, but I’m the junior man on these crews and like working there.

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Papa C.:
After the protest, which I would win assuming I lost the game, I would call the conference supervisor and be sure you never worked one of my games again: "Hey, Tommy, can you believe it? They just wouldn't appeal when I asked. Say, who are those guys? Did they come in on a turnip truck or what? I know it's hard to find enough warm bodies these days, but...."

WCB:
“Hello, Conference Officiating Director here. Coach, I hear you...but, you’ve only been here one year. I’ve seen this crew work dozens of times and they are the second rated crew in our conference. I know that you think they should appeal that swing, but you know how umpires are. They probably talked in the locker room and have a contingency for coaches that ask for that call. Uh, huh...the rule book states that. Yep, no argument here. Did you lose the game? Uh, huh...did that call affect the outcome of the game. Oh, you lost 14-2. Your appeal is denied, but I’ll call the crew chief and alert him to your concerns. Good luck coach. I’ll talk to you after your next loss.” CLICK

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Papa C.:
Finally, why not adopt the PBUC guideline and ignore whether U3 is in C or U1 is in B? Ask the umpire on the line, whichever side B1 is hitting from.

WCB:
Because this is the NCAA. They tend to frown upon novel mechanics.

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Papa C.:
BTW: Did you know that I invented the names of the positions? I'm surprised to see you, a "professional umpire" using them since the professional schools have studiously avoided those labels.

WCB:
In an effort to avoid another war, I will refrain from the easiest of retorts.
Instead, I will say that I use the same vernacular that the membership uses.
I am not writing for my enlightenment or to receive accolades. I provide information and make every effort to explain in it ways that the rookie or veteran can understand.

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Papa C.:
Instead of saying "Go to B with a runner on first," they prefer: "Move into the infield on the right side of the diamond, station yourself on a line between the plate, the skin of the mound, and the outfield, and stand perhaps 15 to 20 feet behind the rubber."

WCB:
I have only offered advice from my experience. If you have coaches that allow that call, then your job at the plate is considerably easier. If you read carefully what I have ascribed, I recognize the rule and have not dismissed it. I have simply said what is expected from us in these levels.

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Papa C:
When I trained umpires for a PONY league, I got tired of the latter and switch to the former. Life is so much better now.

WCB:
I don’t teach as many clinics as you. But, I am an instructor at multiple clinics across the country - teaching everything from NCAA mechanics to showing 14 year olds how to hold an outside protector. My attitude is pretty much the same for all. Demonstrate the accepted mechanic, explain what variations exist and permit them to find the method that works best for them. Most will adopt the professional ways, but the ones that teach me and gain my respect are those that find another way that works. The mechanic we use for check swing appeals works in our leagues. It’s really that simple.

Hey Windy,

I assume your're in the Chicago area. Two Independent Leagues operate here. Frontier and Northern. Have you worked either one? Who have you worked with in these leagues? I don't do these games but I know a few guys that do. I don't think I know you though. Just curious.

If you've been to games at Alexian you've seen me many times. I've also worked in Crestwood, Joliet and The Quad Cities.

Any more help than that and I'll hand my resume to the officiating god from Wheaton .

This may be enough. I have a friend who spent seven years in the Northern League. He self-released three years ago.

I've never been to a Northern League Game so I couldn't have seen you. I know a few guys that worked there last season. Who did you work with? Also in a response to Papa C you mentioned "you were on the second ranked crew in the conference." Just curious what conference was that?

“Hello, Conference Officiating Director here. Coach, I hear you...but, you’ve only been here one year. I’ve seen this crew work dozens of times and they are the second rated crew in our conference. I know that you think they should appeal that swing, but you know how umpires are. They probably talked in the locker room and have a contingency for coaches that ask for that call. Uh, huh...the rule book states that. Yep, no argument here. Did you lose the game? Uh, huh...did that call affect the outcome of the game. Oh, you lost 14-2. Your appeal is denied, but I’ll call the crew chief and alert him to your concerns. Good luck coach. I’ll talk to you after your next loss.” CLICK

From the Conference Officiating Director:

"Hello, Windy. Why in the h#ll would you not ask for a simple checked swing appeal when a coach askes, particularly when he protests? For &&^%& sake, just point to your partner when he asks. How tough is that?

I don't want to hear this complaint from a coach again. It's stupid, and it's too easy to fix. Just ask.

Besides, the rules say you have to. Why give him something else to gripe about. Geez."

Or, more likely:

"Coach, <b>who</b> did that? Never heard of 'em. No, I don't know how the hell he got assigned to your game, but I'll sure the hell look into it. Sure as hell doesn't sound like one of my guys...my guys know the rules. Sounds more like one of them internet types, you know the ones...post anonymously so they lie about their resumes. Hell, if every internet umpire who claimed to work D-1 games were telling the truth we'd be up to our freakin' armpits in umpires."

Gordon,
You need to read closer. I'm not going to spell it out for you. We already have one moderator that has proven his worth. Many others have attempted and failed. I've not made it that difficult, but some of you want it handed to you on a silver platter.

Garth,
That was about as shameless as the old fart in Michigan. I used to think that your writing was inciteful and courageous, but that last one tipped it in for me. You claim that I'm the coward but you are the king of the hit and run. Guys like you jump on the pile after someone else makes the tackle. No wonder you aren't sworn anymore. You can't argue with the facts, so you make it personal. I wouldn't want someone like you on the job either.

AtlBlue,
Have you ever been in a D-1 game? Have you ever strapped 'em on for any level of Minor League ball? Until then, don't tell me how to act with my partners and coaches. Reading 101 should have afforded you teh ability to understand my statement. "I don't have a problem making the call from there, but my partners and that conference don't want it." I believe that I even conceded to Papa C. that I will make every attempot to honor a request from a coach or player to grant the appeal. When we have been instructed by the Conference's Assignor/Director of Umpiring not to make that call from those positions, we don't have much of an option. Maybe you've second-guessed one of those guys before. I haven't and I have a schedule.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
[B]Gordon,
You need to read closer. I'm not going to spell it out for you. We already have one moderator that has proven his worth. Many others have attempted and failed. I've not made it that difficult, but some of you want it handed to you on a silver platter.

Defense Council. I object to that question.

Prosecutor. It goes to credibility your honor.

Judge. Defendent is ordered to answer the question.

To paraphrase Shakespear: Methinks the man doth protest to much.

WindyCityBlue,
Are you calling me out?
Are you calling on me?
Are you calling me flatulence breath?
mick

LOL!

You've been <i>Windy-ied</i>, Mick.

Mick,
You are from the UP and as far as I know, not a shameless old fart. As a Yupper, during Deer season, I would think you'd be more aware than that. When is the last time that I ever got in a p*ssing match with you?

Secondly, if I called anyone out, they would know it. As you can see by his quick response, he knows where it was aimed.

Lastly, I am not afraid of anyone on this site. Your fellow baseball moderator has a pretty good inkling of who I am. He may be embarassed by some of the things I've said in the past (hell, I am!) but if he believes he knows, he's being guarded for a very good reason. I like him, but he knows I hold a Royal Flush and few of you know it.

Okay, WindyCityBlue.
That other old fart isn't a Michigan old fart.
To my knowledge, I am the only one that meets that description, cuz Sandlin is just a young (<I>Compared to me</I>) Michigan fart. ;)
mick

Oops! M'bad.
Sorry, Sal. Yer a Michigan fart, too.



[Edited by mick on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 06:04 PM]

WCB Wrote:
"As I said, I work with multiple NCAA crews, depending on the conference. On one crew, we NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B. I feel that I can make the call from that angle, but I've deferred to their experience. In that conference, we have a couple of coaches that go apesh*t when that call gets made from that angle"


WCB,
With all due respect (although I don't respect you), if a fellow college umpire told me not to come to him for help on a check/half swing because he was in B or C, I'd tell him to go f' himself. When I go to an umpire for help on a check swing, I don't give a rat's a$$ where he's standing, I want him to give me what he's got. And guess what, skip isn't going to say anything because he knows that he would be arguing balls and strikes and we know he doesn't want to do that.

Old school umpires say I won't change your call when I'm in the middle - those are the same guys that are "living and dying" with their calls because they're too proud to get help. Those guys won't be around much longer in NCAA ball if they don't change their ways. At the D-I level and also in independent ball (Frontier League), more and more umpires are going to say in the pregame..."When I come to you on check swings, give me what you got." Anything different, I don't want to work with them again.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 06:08 PM]

Pre-game: If the coach or catcher appeals a check swing I will come to you for your opinion, wherever you are. If I missed a strike I want it back, otherwise, I would expect you to say "no, he didn't go". Simple.

Rut, Windy, AtlBlue, et al have illustrated a point that I have attempted to make within my association.

Coaches at the high school level, by and large, are not hired to be baseball coaches. Rather, they tend to be hired as football coaches are tasked to coach baseball b/c they played the game. In my state, the 5A schools are the exception.

Handling a coach that was tasked to coach baseball is much different that handling a coach that was hired to coach baseball. A coach that was hired to coach baseball tends to know the game, the strategy and the nuances of the game, including manipulating the umpires.

Rut's statements are indicative of one that works ball where the coaches are inexperienced and what we call "stupid". They also indicate that even though he may have called Ju-Co and/or D3 ball, it was as a fill in, evaluation, or test basis. For what ever reason, he has not developed beyond that level. This is not a slight against Rut, just a read of his comments from the board.

Those that work baseball at a level where the coaches are hired and their jobs depend on their success on the baseball field, tend to be more receptive to a coach that comments. In my limited experience at this level, few, if any coaches frequently whine about stupid stuff. This is the exact opposite of the volunteers or "tasked" coaches that are associated with baseball below the NCAA level.

Atl Blue - Southern Clinic
 

off topic!

Atl Blue,
I am bringing 10 from my association to the Southern Clinic. 8 of these are in the top 15 umpires in our 80 umpire association. If you are part of the staff, I look forward to meeting you and hearing some of your ideas in person. Please email me with any advice or prep that we should do prior to showing up.

WRONG!!
 

You are right about the differences between college and HS coaches. Around here baseball is really not that big of a deal, so you see even more turnover with varsity baseball coaches.

You are totally wrong about filling in or not filling in. First of all, anyone that lives in this part of the country has to at some point fill in. The weather is too volatile to always have the same umpires working games that are originally assigned. Rain and snow is common schedule changers in these parts. So at some point anyone working a game is going to have to fill in. I have had entire weeks erased because of the whether. Guess what? The assignors had to make changes to fill games. So most of the college I work is assigned before the season starts. None of that affects my point of view on this issue, because I will admit that most of what I am talking about has nothing to do with college umpiring. But I do not have games where college coaches are always asking for appeals or opinions of the "other" umpire. They tend to go right to the source. If they feel you do not belong at that level, they will see fit to not have you back. I still feel you are not obligated to ask for help when the mechanics or rules do not permit it. And I guess if coaches dictate when we get an appeal, I would like someone to explain to me when the last time they got an appeal for pitch call?

Peace

Re: WRONG!!
 

Jeff,
I disagree because "black balling" or "red lining" of umpires by coaches is on it's way to being a thing of the past in college baseball - atleast here in the Midwest (Big Ten, MAC, Horizon conferences etc.) The Supervisor of Officials in this area has been trying to eliminate this unfair tactic by coaches and has been doing an excellent job in doing so.

Re: Re: WRONG!!
 

I am not talking about scratching umpires. I am saying you will not be back because you cannot do the job. That is totally different than a coach not wanting you to come back to his school. But I know people that worked games at all level, screw up and find themselves not working any more or very little. I cannot speak for the D1 conferences, because I have no idea or real desire to work them in the game of baseball.

Peace

The PBUC Umpire Manual, and the CCA Manual both go over situations where "crew consultation and getting the play right" (PBUC quote) are in order. An example is "deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground rule double". They are nearly identical in commentary and in both manuals "the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the umpire who made the call" (PBUC quote again). In the most recent ALCS series there were two calls in the same game where the crew consulted and got the calls right. In both of these the manager came out to ask about the calls.

Clearly, there are calls that the major league umpires will consult and correct, minor league umpires will consult and correct, and college umpires will consult and correct. Given that the highest level of umpires are expected to get the calls right, the lower levels should aspire to do likewise.

I called a youth league game this Spring by myself from behind the plate, because my partner did not show up. On a steal of 2B, the throw was in plenty of time and tag was applied. I asked the SS to show me the ball, and he did, in his glove, so I called an out. The 1B coach complained that he had dropped the ball and picked it up with his glove. I did not see this at all. I asked the SS if he dropped the ball and he said he did. I consulted (with the SS) and changed my call.

[Edited by DG on Oct 24th, 2004 at 10:53 PM]

Oh my goodness...finally! Thank you DG!!!

For eight months, I've professed this and been met with every level of angst and abuse. The writing is on the wall.
We've seen the best mechanics and techniques funnel their way down. (Gerry Davis stance, two step call at first, etc.) It will take some time, but it will certainly permeate the game in the future. As with most mechanics proposed here, some will work better at certain levels. Further, at some levels those things will be expected. In professional and D-1 baseball they have been here for the past year. All I have asked is that we see what mistakes are being made implementing them and take this new mechanic to the next level. In other words, make it work for you.

Sal,
You may not respect how I say things, but what I say has merit. I don't recall seeking your confidence or respect, this is a discussion forum. Umpires should be used to having an opinion and being held accountable for it. Think skin has no place in this job.

I worked for Fetch some time ago and my aspirations have long since changed. He rewards those he likes and is influenced by what certain coaches want. The coaches still run the show. The mechanic we use in one of my conferences is the accepted M.O. and doing anything contrary will earn you a quick exit. For their major games, they regularly employ four umpires to avoid any problems. You find fault with something we have no control over. In case you haven't noticed, college umpires wear the shirts approved by that conference (some are light blue, others black and many more, dark blue). Asking me to rock the boat, is tantamount to asking your crew to wear a non-approved shirt. We pick our battles. I suspect that you do the same. Don't tell me that if your senior partners told you that the check swing mechanic was such, that you would tell them off or do it anyway. That is the quickest way to get black listed.

I worked for Fetch some time ago and my aspirations have long since changed. He rewards those he likes and is influenced by what certain coaches want. The coaches still run the show. The mechanic we use in one of my conferences is the accepted M.O. and doing anything contrary will earn you a quick exit. For their major games, they regularly employ four umpires to avoid any problems. You find fault with something we have no control over. In case you haven't noticed, collegeumpires wear the shirts approved by that conference (some are light blue, others black and many more, dark blue). Asking me to rock the boat, is tantamount to me asking your crew to wear a non-approved shirt. We pick our battles. I suspect that you do the same. Don't tell me that if your senior partners told you that the check swing mechanic was such, that you would tell them off or do it anyway. That is the quickest way to get black listed.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Oct 25th, 2004 at 10:21 AM]