Instant Replay - Needed

[PeteBooth]

While I applaud the men in blue for getting the calls right here's my problem.

Why have 6 Umpires? I could not understand why the LFU didn't get into proper position in the first place and see the ball clearly go out of the park. After all what other responsibilities does the LFU have?

Last Nights game along with many others IMO should proove once and for all to MLB that Instant Replay is desperately needed. The technology is there use it. All other major sports use it and so should baseball.

The games between the BOSOX amd Yanks have been marathons anyway. Also, the call would have been reversed quicker than the umpires getting together had replay been used as it was a "no brainer" of a call. I think MLB should at least experiement with the idea especially to determine if a ball was a HR or not.

In Summary, I would start with using replay to determine if a ball was a HR or not and go from there.

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
While I applaud the men in blue for getting the calls right here's my problem.

Why have 6 Umpires? I could not understand why the LFU didn't get into proper position in the first place and see the ball clearly go out of the park. After all what other responsibilities does the LFU have?

Last Nights game along with many others IMO should proove once and for all to MLB that Instant Replay is desperately needed. The technology is there use it. All other major sports use it and so should baseball.

The games between the BOSOX amd Yanks have been marathons anyway. Also, the call would have been reversed quicker than the umpires getting together had replay been used as it was a "no brainer" of a call. I think MLB should at least experiement with the idea especially to determine if a ball was a HR or not.

In Summary, I would start with using replay to determine if a ball was a HR or not and go from there.

Pete Booth

The problem is (and you know this as well as I do) it will never stop there. The Managers have been trained to whine about every little thing. You think that Game 5 ALCS was a marathon? That's the way that ALL the games will be with IR. Look, it's bad enough that there has to be a huddle with every important play. Now add IR and we'll never get out of the 2nd inning!

How about this - let's work on our positioning, our judgement and the renderng of said judgement and reserve the IR and huddles for football?

[WindyCityBlue]

Good Morning Gents,
Why the chipper mood, you ask? Since the beginning of the MLB season, I have been telling the membership of a change in attitude for our MLB brethren. I have taken hit after hit about doing whatever is necessary to get the call right, when applicable. Some of our members challenged my experience, knowledge and sense of history. Others hung their hats on the “Live and die with your call.” mentality. I was chastised for saying that the mechanic had made its way into D-1 ball a couple of years ago and that the Minor Leagues was instituting a similar policy. Again and again, we saw members say how diluted the officiating had become and that huddling over controversial call looked silly.

Then a funny thing happened in the Bronx last night...

Just imagine what would have been the reaction if both of those umpires had subscribed to the mentality that some of you espouse. The greater good of the game was served. A-Rod looked like A-Weenie and the umpires remembered that they are not bigger than the game. That was a beautiful game, in so many ways!

The simple fact is we are human. We make mistakes and now have the ability to see them - close up and in slow motion! We are expected to get them right...now we can do a better job of it.

[gordon30307]

I was appalled by the umpiring.

#1. The home run. Ball goes out of the park hits a fan in the chest who is wearing a black jacket. White ball black jacket how could there be any question it was a home run? What was the umpire on the left field line looking at? The umpire on the line shouldn't he have been following the flight of the ball hustling out there then stop so his head is not bouncing up and down and have gotten a clear view of that play? It looked like an easy and obvious call to me.

#2. Interference at first. IMO the first base umpire was out of position. Given how that play was developing should he not have been in foul territory? If so he would have a clear view of the interference. He then could make the call without assistance. I know he got assistance from PU which is fine and I'm pleased that both calls were correct. But six umpires huddling discussing plays looked bad in my view.

I would hate baseball getting instant replay even if it was for home runs. I think it would only result in more committee decision by the umpires on other plays. Just my opinion.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by gordon30307
I was appalled by the umpiring.

#1. The home run. Ball goes out of the park hits a fan in the chest who is wearing a black jacket. White ball black jacket how could there be any question it was a home run? What was the umpire on the left field line looking at? The umpire on the line shouldn't he have been following the flight of the ball hustling out there then stop so his head is not bouncing up and down and have gotten a clear view of that play? It looked like an easy and obvious call to me.

But six umpires huddling discussing plays looked bad in my view.

I would hate baseball getting instant replay even if it was for home runs. I think it would only result in more committee decision by the umpires on other plays. Just my opinion.

Umpires are taught to watch the player, not the flight of the ball. If you are trying to pick up an eight inch white orb while dancing around players attempting a play, you will get hurt. Second, the ball was flying into the stands filled with light colored faces and clothing. Yes, it hit against a black jacketed person, but that person was only three feet above the fence! He made a bad call - agreed! But, until you've had your adrenaline flowing and been in a stadium with fans visible beyond the home run fence, it is tough for you to judge how difficult that call is.

The huddling did not look bad. The fact is that it is a new mechanic and people are not used to seeing it unfold. The telling detail here is how the coachs recated after teh corrected call was made. Torre went out to discuss it but as a life long baseball guy, knew it was the right call - both of them. The fans - the same ones that boo when the pitch isn't called their way - don't understand what transpired. How many of you were yelling at the TV when you saw both plays? As a fan, as an umpire, I was proud of how they did the job. Yes, the original calls were brutal, but umpiring has evolved. Darwin was right!

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Good Morning Gents,
Why the chipper mood, you ask? Since the beginning of the MLB season, I have been telling the membership of a change in attitude for our MLB brethren. I have taken hit after hit about doing whatever is necessary to get the call right, when applicable. Some of our members challenged my experience, knowledge and sense of history. Others hung their hats on the “Live and die with your call.” mentality. I was chastised for saying that the mechanic had made its way into D-1 ball a couple of years ago and that the Minor Leagues was instituting a similar policy. Again and again, we saw members say how diluted the officiating had become and that huddling over controversial call looked silly.

Then a funny thing happened in the Bronx last night...

Just imagine what would have been the reaction if both of those umpires had subscribed to the mentality that some of you espouse. The greater good of the game was served. A-Rod looked like A-Weenie and the umpires remembered that they are not bigger than the game. That was a beautiful game, in so many ways!

Yes, WindBag, you have a right to gloat. You're misleading the readership, however, when you imply that you were alone in your position. Almost half of the posters were on your side of the battle. Two of your main antagonists, both with initials JR, have little credibility anyway.

[gordon30307]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by gordon30307
[B]I was appalled by the umpiring.


Umpires are taught to watch the player, not the flight of the ball. If you are trying to pick up an eight inch white orb while dancing around players attempting a play, you will get hurt.

Hi Windy,

I have never gone to a professional umpiring school. The camps and clinics that I have attended have taught me to follow the ball and it will take me to the play. However, concerning the home run what players could the guy on the left field line be watching? What else does he have to be concerned about except the flight of the ball. I still say black jacket white ball and the fan not even trying to catch it. I was stunned the umpire couldn't call that by himself. Just my opinion.

[WindyCityBlue]

Please...I can find many more examples of members who said that I was living a fantasy with this opinion. There are several here that are still saying that it is the wrong thing to do and that umpires are above the fray. For the last eight months or so, I have said that this is what is being taught and how we officiate at the D-1 and Minor League levels.

But it still feels good to be proved correct. I guess my Fed /Juco wannabe status just went out the window, too!

[mcrowder]

Windy, I disagree. I think the majority agreed with you. The main point of contention from most of us was whether the calling umpire should ask for help, or the other umpires should offer unsolicited help if they see something.

I'm in the camp that the umpire who makes the call makes the call - if he decides he needs help, he asks for it and if a change is made HE should make it.

In both cases last night, this is what happened.

In others earlier in the playoffs, the wrong umpire (IMHO) made the correction... but that just shows that there are at least some MLB umps on the other side of the fence from me on that one.

But the majority are all for getting CORRECTABLE calls correct.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle
[/B]

Two of your main antagonists, both with initials JR, have little credibility anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]Well, you and Windy, the Umpires of Distinction, and all of the hidden little Observers on this forum really do have something in common. You all like to name-call and crap on your fellow officials. You're no different than Windy at all.

Bob, this is just typical of your complete lack of professionalism. We in the officiating fraternity don't need people like you. I can't imagine going out on the football field with someone like you, and then having to watch my back all the time. Sad.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Good Morning Gents,
Why the chipper mood, you ask? Since the beginning of the MLB season, I have been telling the membership of a change in attitude for our MLB brethren. I have taken hit after hit about doing whatever is necessary to get the call right, when applicable. Some of our members challenged my experience, knowledge and sense of history. Others hung their hats on the “Live and die with your call.” mentality. I was chastised for saying that the mechanic had made its way into D-1 ball a couple of years ago and that the Minor Leagues was instituting a similar policy. Again and again, we saw members say how diluted the officiating had become and that huddling over controversial call looked silly.

Then a funny thing happened in the Bronx last night...

Just imagine what would have been the reaction if both of those umpires had subscribed to the mentality that some of you espouse. The greater good of the game was served. A-Rod looked like A-Weenie and the umpires remembered that they are not bigger than the game. That was a beautiful game, in so many ways!

The simple fact is we are human. We make mistakes and now have the ability to see them - close up and in slow motion! We are expected to get them right...now we can do a better job of it.

Not sure what you are gloating about? No one ever suggested here that I can remember that you should never get together to get plays right. This example was the perfect example of when a crew should talk or help each other out. If I am not mistaken the crew chief (who was at first base) asked for help on the play because he knew he was screened and wanted to make sure he got the call right. That is the exact same situation I have found myself in and have helped partners each and every year I have umpired baseball. It is even the very same attitude I take in all my officiating endeavors. I think the officials did a wonderful job, but they also followed a common procedure. The calling official made the call. The calling official asked for help (as he should of in a play like that). They also got together on the homerun which was another good call by the umpires. I really do not know who has ever suggested that there was something wrong about getting together one obviously wrong calls or situations where an umpire might be screened? But if the calling official was sure about their call and saw the entire play, it is not our job to change the call for them. But there is a difference in a ML baseball game where we have 6 Umpires and on every play there is someone that has your back as compared to a 2 Man system where no one has a clear look at their partner's calls in many situations. This is just about as absurd comparison as it would be for most HS officials to compare themselves and mechanics with NFL or NCAA with 7 Officials. There are just some calls you have to live with and no one can help you. And if another official in situations are watching you so closely, what the heck are they missing.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Not sure what you are gloating about?
No one ever suggested here that I can remember that you should never get together to get plays right.


Actually, you did just that, Jeff.
My, how your memory has become selective. There are several examples of your writing telling us that you donÂ’t see how someone can be watching your job, when he has responsibilities of his own. In fact, you wrote - on multiple occasions - that you would have a problem with a partner telling you that you missed a call and that the crew needs to fix it. Do we need to cut and paste again?

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This example was the perfect example of when a crew should talk or help each other out. If I am not mistaken the crew chief (who was at first base) asked for help on the play because he knew he was screened and wanted to make sure he got the call right. That is the exact same situation I have found myself in and have helped partners each and every year I have umpired baseball. It is even the very same attitude I take in all my officiating endeavors. I think the officials did a wonderful job, but they also followed a common procedure. The calling official made the call. The calling official asked for help (as he should of in a play like that). They also got together on the homerun which was another good call by the umpires. I really do not know who has ever suggested that there was something wrong about getting together one obviously wrong calls or situations where an umpire might be screened?



Hmmmm....see my response above. I think it says it all.

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But if the calling official was sure about their call and saw the entire play, it is not our job to change the call for them.



No, it actually is our job to do just that. Jerry Crawford ruled the ball fair in the AL Div. Series and was overruled by his partners. He was sure of his call, remember, he made the call and they approached him - not the other way around. In last nights game, Joyce (Home Run) and Marsh (Interference) both made their respective calls. Read that again...THEY MADE THEIR CALLS. Only after Francona came running onto the field did either of them look for help. They made calls that they thought were correct. (BTW, that was MarshÂ’s second kicked call of this series.) Their partners recognize the scrutiny that the entire crew is under and persuaded them to rectify the play. As a couple of members have said, this crew did it very well. The original calling official was convinced he kicked it and signalled the change. YouÂ’ve long felt that another official offering assistance is an afront to your abilities. These guys are the best of the bunch and they needed assistance on several occasions.

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But there is a difference in a ML baseball game where we have 6 Umpires and on every play there is someone that has your back as compared to a 2 Man system where no one has a clear look at their partner's calls in many situations. This is just about as absurd comparison as it would be for most HS officials to compare themselves and mechanics with NFL or NCAA with 7 Officials. There are just some calls you have to live with and no one can help you. And if another official in situations are watching you so closely, what the heck are they missing.


Wow, that must be good pot.
YouÂ’ve just restated the same, silly argument again. On the A-Rod play, who is watching for the interference call - the first base umpire, five feet away and looking right at it or the home plate umpire, ninety feet away? Watch the play again, closely. Marsh saw exactly what happened and made his call. Arroyo and Millar went nuts about the ball being knocked away. Francona came running out and Marsh motioned for him that he was going for help, because he knew he kicked it. Most of us have been there - weÂ’ve made a call and as soon as our mouth starts to move a neuron fires and tells us that we blew it. He knew it and so did Francona, Torre and A-Rod. If that play had happened in Boston, A-Rod wouldnÂ’t have been so vocal walking away. Better yet, if one of the Boston players had tried that with Clark, he would still be running.

I’m not sure why this concept is difficult for you. You jumped on the pile when I first proposed the concept and most everyone recognizes that while I may be arrogant, opinionated and controversial...I am right on this one. I will be glad to call up some of my better zingers and ridicule your thoughts again. Remember this one... “Baseball umpiring is evolving. If you don’t want to adapt, don’t be surprised when you get run over by a coach that sees everyone else asking for help, but not you! You are the amazing Rut and no partner of yours could possibly have seen what you saw.” - May 22, 2004 3:08 p.m.

This is not football or basketball. Focus with us here. Two, three, four or six man...it doesnÂ’t matter. The more trained eyes, the better. Will every call warrant an appeal or correction? No...but, if your pride prevents you from accepting honest insight to the play from your partners, you should sell your gear.

[gordon30307]

But if the calling official was sure about their call and saw the entire play, it is not our job to change the call for them.



No, it actually is our job to do just that. Jerry Crawford ruled the ball fair in the AL Div. Series and was overruled by his partners. He was sure of his call, remember, he made the call and they approached him - not the other way around. In last nights game, Joyce (Home Run) and Marsh (Interference) both made their respective calls. Read that again...THEY MADE THEIR CALLS. Only after Francona came running onto the field did either of them look for help. They made calls that they thought were correct. (BTW, that was MarshÂ’s second kicked call of this series.) Their partners recognize the scrutiny that the entire crew is under and persuaded them to rectify the play. As a couple of members have said, this crew did it very well. The original calling official was convinced he kicked it and signalled the change. YouÂ’ve long felt that another official offering assistance is an afront to your abilities. These guys are the best of the bunch and they needed assistance on several occasions.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But there is a difference in a ML baseball game where we have 6 Umpires and on every play there is someone that has your back as compared to a 2 Man system where no one has a clear look at their partner's calls in many situations. This is just about as absurd comparison as it would be for most HS officials to compare themselves and mechanics with NFL or NCAA with 7 Officials. There are just some calls you have to live with and no one can help you. And if another official in situations are watching you so closely, what the heck are they missing.


Wow, that must be good pot.
YouÂ’ve just restated the same, silly argument again. On the A-Rod play, who is watching for the interference call - the first base umpire, five feet away and looking right at it or the home plate umpire, ninety feet away? Watch the play again, closely. Marsh saw exactly what happened and made his call. Arroyo and Millar went nuts about the ball being knocked away. Francona came running out and Marsh motioned for him that he was going for help, because he knew he kicked it. Most of us have been there - weÂ’ve made a call and as soon as our mouth starts to move a neuron fires and tells us that we blew it. He knew it and so did Francona, Torre and A-Rod. If that play had happened in Boston, A-Rod wouldnÂ’t have been so vocal walking away. Better yet, if one of the Boston players had tried that with Clark, he would still be running.

I’m not sure why this concept is difficult for you. You jumped on the pile when I first proposed the concept and most everyone recognizes that while I may be arrogant, opinionated and controversial...I am right on this one. I will be glad to call up some of my better zingers and ridicule your thoughts again. Remember this one... “Baseball umpiring is evolving. If you don’t want to adapt, don’t be surprised when you get run over by a coach that sees everyone else asking for help, but not you! You are the amazing Rut and no partner of yours could possibly have seen what you saw.” - May 22, 2004 3:08 p.m.

This is not football or basketball. Focus with us here. Two, three, four or six man...it doesnÂ’t matter. The more trained eyes, the better. Will every call warrant an appeal or correction? No...but, if your pride prevents you from accepting honest insight to the play from your partners, you should sell your gear. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Windy,

The two plays in question getting help is OK. However where do you draw the line. Assume two man which is what most of us do consistently. It goes without saying checked swing, foul off the foot, pulled foot or swipe tag at first maybe one or two other plays that don't come to mind are plays where we "traditionally" can seek help.

As a field umpire I have had coaches request me to ask for help on a tag at third base a tag on a runner between bases
and a pulled foot at second on a force. All of these plays the coach came charging out giving me pause that I may have missed something (quite sure I had them all right). I'm on top of the play and despite the begging and pleading there was no way I would go to my partner who is 100 feet away. If in fact I did miss them (And I didn't) I would have ate crow (always carry mustard with just in case) and not put my partner on the spot. Here's my question to you. Other than rules and the traditional plays in a two man system where do you find it appropriate to seek help.