Getting it right!

[David B]

I know there are threads everywhere that debate this topic, but I also know there are many young umpires who visit this site for information.

This post in another thread by Sal Giaco is right on the mark.

It seems like umpiring is making a 180 degree turn from "live and die" with your calls to now what seems like the football approach to discussing calls on the field.

The recently adopted "get it right" philosophy has some merit but you have to know HOW and WHEN to use it. For the most part, I think it's evolved as a tool to apease(sp?) the players and managers. Perhaps, it also brings a more working relationship between managers/players and umpires which for a while anyways, was going in almost opposite directions.

Bottom line - work hard on the field to build your angles and get in the best position possible to make your calls. Also, know your responsibilites as well as your partners responsibilites for each play and only get help as a last resort. By doing this, it should limit the possibilities for managers requesting assistance from other crew members.

If more umpires could learn this philosophy it would make it easier for everyone. And make the games move a little quicker.

Thanks
David

[Sal Giaco]

Dave,
One point I can't stress enough is:

Not only know your responsibilities on the field, but also your partners as well. The reason for this is when a manager/head coach comes out and asks you to get help, you can explain to him that "I can't go to him Skip because he's watching the B/R touch first base on that play - he has no responsibility for catch/no catch so he's not even watching that part of the play".

Once the manager understands that you and your partners have your own responsibilites during each play, he is less likely to push you to get help. Kind of like, "Skip, that's not fair of me to ask my partner for help on that play because his focus is on the runner and not the fielder. We only have two guys out here and we're doing the best we can."

There is also a mechanic we use that if another partner has some "useful" information that may change the outcome of the play, he will take his hat off as a signal that he may have some thing to add. That way, if I am in a discussion with a manager regarding a particular play and I glance over and see my partner with his hat off, then I know he must have seen something that I missed.

One last point, if you go for help, especially if you are just apeasing(sp?) the manager, you need to let him know..." Ok Skip, I will go to him for help but we are going to live with whatever he has - meaning we are NOT going to discuss this any further after I get his input." This will ensure that the manager does not start arguing with your partner and further delaying the game after you've gone for help.

Sorry to ramble on - hope this helps.

[David B]

When I'm doing training this is one of my points of emphasis; however, I don't know about all the secret signals.

I usually will know that I might have missed something,
(the coaches actions, players actions, etc.,) and at that point if it is a play that could use some information I will ask. If a play as you described and everyone was watching something else, then forget it.

But, I can hear it now. "Mr Blue, I see BU's got his hat off, why don't you ask him what HE saw".

See lots of coaches are also umpires etc., they know what to look for just like they know when they are dealing with a gualified and an unqualified official.

But everywhere I've gone to officiate everyone has their own little quirks, to each his own.

Thanks
David

[WindyCityBlue]

From Sal Giaco...

Once the manager understands that you and your partners have your own responsibilites during each play, he is less likely to push you to get help. Kind of like, "Skip, that's not fair of me to ask my partner for help on that play because his focus is on the runner and not the fielder. We only have two guys out here and we're doing the best we can."

There is also a mechanic we use that if another partner has some "useful" information that may change the outcome of the play, he will take his hat off as a signal that he may have some thing to add. That way, if I am in a discussion with a manager regarding a particular play and I glance over and see my partner with his hat off, then I know he must have seen something that I missed.

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I worked a game at Missouri a few years ago. Since we were working as a crew for the first time, we decided to meet for Breakfast and do a pre-pregame. One of the guys worked for Fetch and used the "Kicked Call" signal. He urged us to use it, as well. My other partner laughed and aksed him why he didn't just use the "stroke off" motion with his fist. I agreed and asked him how long it would be before an observant coach, assistant coach or player catches on to this shenanigan. The series went well and we met up about four weeks later. Sure enough, he said that he was workinga game at Bowling Green and the visiting coach was aware of the signal. They were called on it when one of them did it. He said they have never used it since. we had a laugh at his expense and were glad that we weren't out there that day.

It's funny, the big boys don't have a secret signal. They are taught to confer immediately and ask for help. Now, these guys have been at it - at a much higher and more stressful level - than anyone here. Yet, that is their mechanic. All of the brain power in their room and no one said, "Hey, if you look aroung and see one of us remove our hat/take of our sunglasses/pick our nose, you kicked it and we need to talk."

Living and dying with a bad call is kind of like keeping troops battling in a foreign country without an exit strategy. It makes no sense. When you can fix one of your errors, you are smarter for doing it. It's one thing to be a man of strong convictions. It is another to be wrong and convinced otherwise. I would think that you could look at how our MLB colleagues are behaving and realize that they have abandoned their egos for the greater good. Stick to your guns and you are telling your partners, I'm better than you. Not being to proud to get an assist doesn't make you weak, it makes coaches and players want you out there.

[PeteBooth]

Living and dying with a bad call is kind of like keeping troops battling in a foreign country without an exit strategy. It makes no sense. When you can fix one of your errors, you are smarter for doing it.

I disagree.

Players React to an umpires call RIGHT or WRONG

Let's take this play

Last inning score tied. One out R1/R3. Ground ball to F4 who attempts a tag on R1 and then throw to F3 to send the game into extra innings.

Let's Freeze at the moment F4 attempts a tag on R1 as this call is crucial. Since R3 is the winning run, If U2 rules No tag, chances are F4 will fire home and try and get R3. If U2 signals out, then F4 will simply flip to F3 to send the game into extra innings.

Let's say U2 ruled Safe No-Tag, F4 threw home and R3 was safe game over EXCEPT wait a minute, U1 who had a better angle clearly saw the tag on R1 by F4. Now the umpires hudle, change the call. Now what! Would the defense have turned the DP, etc. etc.

Same is true on the flip side. Suppose U2 called R1 out and the defense turned the DP to send the game into extra innings and again, the umpires hudle rule that R1 was safe. Now what Game OVER.

Therefore, Windy I agree with your philosophy if it involves only ONE runner, because changing the call does NOT EFFECT another play. However, when we have multiple runners then WE as UMPIRES MUST and SHOULD stick to the Call even if we Kick it because to change it causes more havoc.

Pitcher's give up Gopher balls - Do we give them a mulligan
Players' make errors
managers make mistakes

In all the above there are no second chances. When the ball sails over the Fence, or through someone's legs (remember Bill Buckner), or the manager makes a terrible pitching or player move, we do not ask the manager to Group together with his staff and change things. It's called part of the game.

Contrary to popular Belief, Umpires will make mistakes too. Remember a baseball game is 9 innings long and the smallest series is the best 3 out of five games, so in a nutshell, the best team will win regardless of a bad call or not.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Oct 14th, 2004 at 05:26 PM]

[WindyCityBlue]

From Pete Booth -

Pitcher's give up Gopher balls - Do we give them a mulligan
Players' make errors
managers make mistakes

In all the above there are no second chances. When the ball sails over the Fence, or through someone's legs (remember Bill Buckner), or the manager makes a terrible pitching or player move, we do not ask the manager to Group together with his staff and change things. It's called part of the game.

Contrary to popular Belief, Umpires will make mistakes too. Remember a baseball game is 9 innings long and the smallest series is the best 3 out of five games, so in a nutshell, the best team will win regardless of a bad call or not.
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Pete,
I've always admired the way you write. I may not always agree with the substance, but you make some excellent points. I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this.

Players get traded, cut or sit on the bench when they make mistakes.
Coaches get fired when they make errors.
Umpires are paid to ensure that the game is administered fairly and in accordance with the rules. My theory is that if you call a foul ball fair, you'be broken a rule and are not administering the game fairly. (per Crawford's call in the Div. series) We recognize which calls deserve help when a call is blown. I give no import to the call. In other words, if I blow a call and my partners can fix it, do it no matter how bad it looks or how it affects the false outcome of the play. A blown call is poorly administering the rules of the game. Recognizing our fallibility is the first step. Yes, we make mistakes that cost players, coaches and administrators their jobs, if not their sanity. being big enough to solicit help when it is offered and applicable is the difference. I can not offer the proper way to offer assistance for all levels. I only know what is acceptable at the level I work. We have discussed this before. I urge you to consider that the kicked call you make might be seen by the next generation of umpires. I would rather they see me make a call and know that there is an accepted recourse. You don't need to get hung by a bad call. We've all made them and we all know how sh*tty it feels.

[David B]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
From Pete Booth -

Pitcher's give up Gopher balls - Do we give them a mulligan
Players' make errors
managers make mistakes

In all the above there are no second chances. When the ball sails over the Fence, or through someone's legs (remember Bill Buckner), or the manager makes a terrible pitching or player move, we do not ask the manager to Group together with his staff and change things. It's called part of the game.

Contrary to popular Belief, Umpires will make mistakes too. Remember a baseball game is 9 innings long and the smallest series is the best 3 out of five games, so in a nutshell, the best team will win regardless of a bad call or not.
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Pete,
I've always admired the way you write. I may not always agree with the substance, but you make some excellent points. I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this.

Players get traded, cut or sit on the bench when they make mistakes.
Coaches get fired when they make errors.
Umpires are paid to ensure that the game is administered fairly and in accordance with the rules. My theory is that if you call a foul ball fair, you'be broken a rule and are not administering the game fairly. (per Crawford's call in the Div. series) We recognize which calls deserve help when a call is blown. I give no import to the call. In other words, if I blow a call and my partners can fix it, do it no matter how bad it looks or how it affects the false outcome of the play. A blown call is poorly administering the rules of the game. Recognizing our fallibility is the first step. Yes, we make mistakes that cost players, coaches and administrators their jobs, if not their sanity. being big enough to solicit help when it is offered and applicable is the difference. I can not offer the proper way to offer assistance for all levels. I only know what is acceptable at the level I work. We have discussed this before. I urge you to consider that the kicked call you make might be seen by the next generation of umpires. I would rather they see me make a call and know that there is an accepted recourse. You don't need to get hung by a bad call. We've all made them and we all know how sh*tty it feels.

There was a great piece on Denkinger and his call against St. Louis in 87? I think.

He is and was a great umpire who made a mistake.

But the piece on ESPN highlighted how he was still able to be a great umpire in spite of a blown call.

He even had the plate for the next game which St. Louis got blown out.

In his house there is a wall of all his outstanding achievements etc., and in the midst of it is a picture of the blown call.

When asked why, he said "we can learn from a mistake.
Its part of who I am today!"

Wow what a concept. We will blow them and the sun will still come up tomorrow!

But we can be better tomorrow than we were today!

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B


There was a great piece on Denkinger and his call against St. Louis in 87? I think.

It was 1985 when the Cardinals were playing the Royals in Kansas City.

In 1987 they got beat by Minnesota.

I am a Cardinals fan and that play still hurts. But if the Cardinals did not lose their composure, they might have won the game.

Peace

[ozzy6900]

I met with several of my Minor League associates on the subject of "getting the call right" and here is their response:

"You guys are making too much of the game and turning into a bunch of wimps! It's really a simple job that we do.

1. First and foremost know the rules! That is your main function. Without the rules, you cannot do your job.

2. Get into the correct position. If you can't do this - get off the field!

3. Open your eyes and see to play. See it again in your head. Be confident that you saw it correctly. If you doubt your information, you did something wrong.

4. MAKE A DAMN CALL! That's what you are there for! Your not there to hold conferences with your partner(s). Have some balls and make a call! If you find that you are making more wrong calls that right ones, you need better training or a new hobby!

5. Save your meetings for the locker room! The baseball field is not a meeting house."

Needless to say, the discussion went on well into the night. But I have to tell you; the more we talked the more I am agreeing that there is entirely too much "huddling" going on. In the off season, I am going to work with them on positioning and see if I can't adopt this for the 2 man system.

[WindyCityBlue]

From Mario's fingertips -

1. First and foremost know the rules! That is your main function. Without the rules, you cannot do your job.

2. Get into the correct position. If you can't do this - get off the field!

3. Open your eyes and see to play. See it again in your head. Be confident that you saw it correctly. If you doubt your information, you did something wrong.

4. MAKE A DAMN CALL! That's what you are there for! Your not there to hold conferences with your partner(s). Have some balls and make a call! If you find that you are making more wrong calls that right ones, you need better training or a new hobby!

5. Save your meetings for the locker room! The baseball field is not a meeting house."

Jerry Crawford knows the rules. He was less than 100 feet from the foul ball call he had to make during the Divisional Series. I'm assuming his eyes were open since the cameras showed him looking at the ball. He made the damn call...and he was wrong! The fact that this was a huge game probably meant more to the fans than the crew. The thrid base and home plate umpires both ran up the line and told him what they saw. The huddle took all of ten seconds and Reliford reveresed it.

Stating the obvious, there is a very good reason why those you were talking to are still doing Minor League ball. The mechanic has already trickled down in many Minor League crews and is in fact being scrutinized by Fitz. Our roles are evolving, but one thing has always remained. Our job is to get the call right, not just make the call. If that was the case, any guy from the stands would be doing it. We are paid to be responsible out there. The onus is on the official to be better than what can normally be had.

[Kaliix]

Windy, I agree with your getting it right philosophy, to a point. The example below of the fair/foul call is one in which getting help is commonly accepted. But your quote about "how bad it looks or how it affects...the play" is taking that philosophy into the absurd.

Where was the first base umpire in the Yankee/Twins series when that runner was "tagged" out at second on a steal when the replays clearly and unequivocally showed that no tag was ever made? The angle from first was the best angle on the play. But that is a judgement call that a first base umpire is not going to over-rule. Getting it right has it's limits. I just wish you would admit that.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue I give no import to the call. In other words, if I blow a call and my partners can fix it, do it no matter how bad it looks or how it affects the false outcome of the play.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
From Mario's fingertips -

1. First and foremost know the rules! That is your main function. Without the rules, you cannot do your job.

2. Get into the correct position. If you can't do this - get off the field!

3. Open your eyes and see to play. See it again in your head. Be confident that you saw it correctly. If you doubt your information, you did something wrong.

4. MAKE A DAMN CALL! That's what you are there for! Your not there to hold conferences with your partner(s). Have some balls and make a call! If you find that you are making more wrong calls that right ones, you need better training or a new hobby!

5. Save your meetings for the locker room! The baseball field is not a meeting house."

Jerry Crawford knows the rules. He was less than 100 feet from the foul ball call he had to make during the Divisional Series. I'm assuming his eyes were open since the cameras showed him looking at the ball. He made the damn call...and he was wrong! The fact that this was a huge game probably meant more to the fans than the crew. The thrid base and home plate umpires both ran up the line and told him what they saw. The huddle took all of ten seconds and Reliford reveresed it.

Stating the obvious, there is a very good reason why those you were talking to are still doing Minor League ball. The mechanic has already trickled down in many Minor League crews and is in fact being scrutinized by Fitz. Our roles are evolving, but one thing has always remained. Our job is to get the call right, not just make the call. If that was the case, any guy from the stands would be doing it. We are paid to be responsible out there. The onus is on the official to be better than what can normally be had.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jerry Crawford knows the rules. He was less than 100 feet from the foul ball call he had to make during the Divisional Series. I'm assuming his eyes were open since the cameras showed him looking at the ball. He made the damn call...and he was wrong! The fact that this was a huge game probably meant more to the fans than the crew. The thrid base and home plate umpires both ran up the line and told him what they saw. The huddle took all of ten seconds and Reliford reveresed it.

Stating the obvious, there is a very good reason why those you were talking to are still doing Minor League ball. The mechanic has already trickled down in many Minor League crews and is in fact being scrutinized by Fitz. Our roles are evolving, but one thing has always remained. Our job is to get the call right, not just make the call. If that was the case, any guy from the stands would be doing it. We are paid to be responsible out there. The onus is on the official to be better than what can normally be had.

Windy, as always, there are exceptions to the rule. The problem is taking a call such as this and holding it up saying "see, this is why we have to have a meeting". No one argues a call like the one you described because to stick with that call is stupid.

What I am saying is that if you get into the CORRECT position (which means fat butts like me have to hustle), you should be able to make 99.9999% of your calls yourself. This does not include checked swings, incorrect rule applications, or obvious total diasters like the one you described.

By the way these Minor League guys are AAA and will do what they are instructed. All this huddling stuff hasn't filtered down to them yet. They are not perfect (if they were they would be coaches) but take my word for it, they are right on top of their calls everytime. They are in line to move up but they have to wait for slots to open up.

[WindyCityBlue]

From Kaliix -
Windy, I agree with your getting it right philosophy, to a point. The example below of the fair/foul call is one in which getting help is commonly accepted. But your quote about "how bad it looks or how it affects...the play" is taking that philosophy into the absurd.

Where was the first base umpire in the Yankee/Twins series when that runner was "tagged" out at second on a steal when the replays clearly and unequivocally showed that no tag was ever made? The angle from first was the best angle on the play. But that is a judgement call that a first base umpire is not going to over-rule. Getting it right has it's limits. I just wish you would admit that.
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I have...many times! I have never advocated that every suspect call is eligible for redux. The MLB has shown us that there are many plays that can and should use this application. We have discussed which ones we are comfortable with, ad nauseum. I will not waste bandwidth repeating them.


From Mario -

By the way these Minor League guys are AAA and will do what they are instructed. All this huddling stuff hasn't filtered down to them yet. They are not perfect (if they were they would be coaches) but take my word for it, they are right on top of their calls everytime. They are in line to move up but they have to wait for slots to open up.
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I was in their shoes once upon a time and know the routine. Fitz has already told his crews to get the calls right - at almost all costs. The pressure on them is unrelenting. They hustle, they study, the polish and almost act robotic - but they still make enough mistakes to cost them a shot at the big time. Fitz has many examples of his tutelage working on top and without exception, they are guys that put the game before themselves. They can think and react better than most and are humble enough to know that getting there isn't as hard as staying there. The "fix -t" mentality is present at AAA and AA ball. Most Rookie and A level officials that screw up that much are gone before they see the next stop. Minor league training is about focus and desire. Even in the indy ball that I've worked for more than a few years, we try to make the best call we can. But, we know that our partners will assist us AND support us when we do make an error. It has filtered down and pride precludes many of these robots from enjoying thie freedom it affords. Think about it - your partner just kicked a call that has been captured by videotape and will be sent to Fitz. You are both fighting for the same job. Do you let him hang and know that he will soon be out of your way? Do you take the risk of offering input to someone who may feel you are trying to show him up and get seen? These young guns have a much different perspective. I know, I've been there and it isn't fun.

[Atl Blue]

I was in their shoes once upon a time and know the routine

You worked AAA baseball?

[WindyCityBlue]

AA