Cardinals VS. Dodgers Game 4

[gordon30307]

Anyone see the play where Milton Bradley made the sliding catch. Apparently caught the ball. To me he (Bradley) caught the ball and the release appeared to be voluntary. Play was ruled no catch. It looked to me the act of bringing the glove to his throwing hand demomstrated a catch. What did you guys think? No one argued the call probably because R1 was forced at second.

[LDUB]

I didn't watch the game, but I saw the replay. But from what I saw it was a catch. Bradley caught it and dropped it when he tried to transfer the ball to his throwing hand.

If you want to see the play, click this, then click on Milton Bradley gets the out.

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NA...ex.jsp?c_id=la

[jicecone]

I watched the play and replay and replay,etc. I could see it was a catch on the replay and thought during the transfer, was where he dropped the ball. Also based upon what the announcers said I concluded that: 1. Those idiots did NOT have a clue what the hell they were talking about and as usuall think everybody tunes in to listen to them talk. 2. The umpires called it as a trap or 3. It was ruled no catch because the player dropped the ball. I am still interested in what really happen. I did know one thing for sure though, the announcers just didn't have a clue.!!!!!!!

[Gee]

I had a catch. He caught the ball laying on his right side, he lifted his left arm with the ball showing the world that he had it. He then brought his left hand down over his right hand and intentionaly tried to drop the ball into his throwing hand. It seems he was watching the play when he tried to intentionaly drop the ball and the connection failed. I've got a legal catch and an out. G.

[umpduck11]

I didn't watch the game,but if it was on Fox,
I don't understand why anyone is surprised by
the commentators.In my book,Tim McCarver is a
blooming idiot.He knows less about the rules of
the game than most park-ball coaches......

[TBBlue]

I also have an out and voluntary release. If you watch the replay, either Bradley doesn't know the rule either, or he saw Merriweather call it safe. When he threw to the cutoff man, you could see him immediately point to second base for F4 to make the force play there. You gotta admit, you don't see many 9-4-3-6 forceouts.

[Atl Blue]

With benefit of the replay, I also think it was a catch. But it was Merriweather, the RF line umpire that made the call. From his angle, he had no idea if Bradley pulled the ball out of his glove, dropped it on the slide, or reached for it and missed.

The only camera angle that was clear to me was the one from center or left-center field, and there was no ump in those outfield positions to make the call.

I am not faulting Merriweather. It was a tough call, one that had to be made immediately because of the runner, and he was in the worst possible place to see if the release was voluntary or not. But he made it, and he will not live in Don Denkinger infamy, becasue in the long run, the call made no difference. Suppan had returned to first when he thought it was a catch, and only went to 2B (to be forced out) when the no catch call was made. In either case, the Cards add one out and still have a runner on first. The only difference was WHICH runner was going to be out.

And what was LaRussa out arguing about? SOMEONE was out, and they only called one out, so what was he discussing?

[mach3]

I thgought it was a good call. Bradley had now clue where the ball was in his glove. It droped while he reached into the glove but he never put any force on the ball. It fell out of the glove because he reached into it not knowing where it was, and it was not where he reached to. It did not come out of his hand and felt to the ground.

Raoul

[umpyre007]

The comment prevalent with the announcers was that the transfer was "so quick" after the catch that it might have appeared to Merriweather that Bradley never had complete control of the ball and dropped it. One of them even tried to correlate it with a double play ball at second base where the transfer also happens very quickly. In those circumstances the "catch" of the ball is ruled a force out the majority of the time and the drop is attributed to the transfer. However, one is a catch of a batted ball while the other is a catch of a thrown ball.

The whole situation is just another example of the "holes" encountered in the mechanics and areas of responsibility in the MLB umpire coverage. Perhaps they need to have two U2s; one to take care of the base and one to take care of the gap between UL and UR?

U7

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by TBBlue
I also have an out and voluntary release. If you watch the replay, either Bradley doesn't know the rule either, or he saw Merriweather call it safe. When he threw to the cutoff man, you could see him immediately point to second base for F4 to make the force play there. You gotta admit, you don't see many 9-4-3-6 forceouts.

Bradley seemed stunned by the safe call. I got the impression that he was directing the infielders to throw it to 2nd because he was aware that ...
1. the umpire had ruled it a "no catch" and
2. that R1 could easily be forced.

I think Bradley *was* aware that it is considered a catch on an attempted transfer because he remained sitting and reenacted how he dropped it while transfering it, much like an umpire would signal.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[mcrowder]

If this was a catch, though, Suppan legally tagged up at 1st, and never was tagged at 2nd.

[gordon30307]

It was a force play because it was ruled no catch. BR safe at first.

[EMD]

From Alt Blue:

I am not faulting Merriweather. It was a tough call, one that had to be made immediately because of the runner, and he was in the worst possible place to see if the release was voluntary or not. But he made it, and he will not live in Don Denkinger infamy, becasue in the long run, the call made no difference. Suppan had returned to first when he thought it was a catch, and only went to 2B (to be forced out) when the no catch call was made. In either case, the Cards add one out and still have a runner on first. The only difference was WHICH runner was going to be out.

And what was LaRussa out arguing about? SOMEONE was out, and they only called one out, so what was he discussing?


I think the umpires on the field, who had the best angle, made the correct call. The umpire off the field should never argue about another umpires decision unless asked by the umpire how made the call: see OBR Rule9.02 c.

I know is fun to talk about what another umpire did or did not due, but come on, he saw better than we ever will. That is thier job, not ours. Hell I bet most where drinking a cold beer.

As far as LaRussa, I understood the arguement to about the force. He latter stated he did not see the tag or touch at second base that would create the out. Second base umpire was on the moeny too! He saw it all.

Just my thoughts

[Atl Blue]

I think the umpires on the field, who had the best angle, made the correct call.

No, Merriweather, who was the RFU, made the call. He had a TERRIBLE angle. Bradley's body was between him and the ball and glove. He had no idea if Bradley dropped the ball, or pulled it out. But he had to make a call, it was his to make. He made the best call he could given what he saw and the circumstances.

Personally, I think he missed it, as do MANY other umpires on this board. But we have the benefit of slow motion replays from a number of angles, only one of which clearly showed what happened, and it was an angle not avaialable to any ump on the field.

I am NOT cricizing Merriweather. He did the best he could with the information he had. But given the additional information available to us after the fact, information that was NOT available to him at the time, SEEMS to show he might have been wrong. Shoot, even the MLB umps look at the replays later and say, "Yep, I missed that one."

The umpire off the field should never argue about another umpires decision unless asked by the umpire how made the call: see OBR Rule9.02 c.

If you meant that umpires on this board should not comment on judgment calls made by MLB umps, get real. 9.02c does NOT apply to fans (and that's what we are) sitting in the stands or watching on TV. Major League Baseball is entertainment. The players, AND the umpires, are entertainers. Obviously, their performance is subject to critique by the paying audience. Have you never gone to a movie and come out saying, "Gee, I didn't think that actor did a very good job in that role." Hey I love Dustin Hoffman, think he is a great actor, but good grief, did you see Ishtar? He stunk the place up! Even the best miss one sometimes.

I know is fun to talk about what another umpire did or did not due, but come on, he saw better than we ever will.

I don't know about what was "due", but we do talk about what they "do". And no, he did not see it better than we ever will. We had 6 camera angles worth of replays, shown in slow motion. We saw what happened FAR better than he did.

I work in the NFL. I am in the press box on Sundays. We have to make calls about who gets credit for various things, carries, tackles, fumbles, etc. We also have to indicate mistakes the refs make in spotting the ball, marking penalties, annoucements, etc., but we get to do it with the benefit of replays. These guys are the best football officials in the world, but they do make mistakes in the heat of the moment. Just two weeks ago, I sat with the crew in the locker room after the Falcons/Cardinals game, reviewing a call the ref made. When he saw it in slow motion on the replay from an angle different than the one he had on the field, he immediately changed his mind about what he called (QB hit, question of fumble versus forward pass. The reason the call was not reviewed DURING the game was because the defender took the ball out of the air anyway. It did not change the call on the field, but statistically, it made a difference between an interception and a fumble recovery). The ref changed his mind because of information that was available to the general public, but it was not available to him at the time.

That is thier job, not ours.

Absolutely, and that's why Merriweather's call was what counted, not what we think on this board. But it still doesn't mean he was right.

Hell I bet most where drinking a cold beer

At that time, no, but I wished I would have been!

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by EMD
From Alt Blue:

And what was LaRussa out arguing about? SOMEONE was out, and they only called one out, so what was he discussing?

I think LaRussa was arguing the Suppan shouldn't have been called out on a force since the ball was FIRST thrown to 1st, the bag tagged, forcing out the batter-runner, thus requiring Suppan to be tagged - which he wasn't.

It was a weak argument since the throw to 1st, although intended to double up Suppan, actually did NOT beat the batter-runner. So Suppan was, in fact, forced out.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN