I've seen this happen twice in the last two weeks.

This happened on an uncaught third strike where the batter could advance to first. The ball went to the back stop and in the first sitch the batter just stood there watching the catcher retrieve the ball.

The Plate umpire was between the batter and the catcher and he pointed to first base which woke up the batter who then started on his journey. He was thrown out at first but I thought it was inappropriate for the umpire to point and tip off the runner.

The second time was the same although the runner was off to first prior to the point. Is this a new mechanic?

Who knows? Maybe someone can shed some light on this? Maybe the PU was appealing a checked swing? However, over the past couple of years I've noticed a few "strange" mechanics occurring with MLB umpires. One would be the announcing of the location of a pitch called a ball; i. e. high, low, outside, inside, etc. This isn't done by all MLB umpires but by a few and runs contradictory to the training many of us at the levels lower than MLB receive. In fact, I know of guys who have been dinged on evaluations for doing exactly this same thing. :D

U7

I saw that type of play last night. I can't remember which game. In this situation, the batter had tried to hold back his bat. The umpire pointed at the batter to indicate that he had made an attempt. Is this possibly what you saw?

I'm pretty sure that neither was a checked swing. Secondly, why would a ML catcher appeal while he was going back to the screen to retrieve the ball? Not good mechanics by the catcher.G.

Didn't see the play, but umpires are taught to appeal automatically, without waiting to be asked on a droppe-third, check-swing situation.

Not an appeal
 

I think what you saw was not an appeal or check swing, not the umpire pointing the runner to the direction that he should run, but I believe that he was indicating a swinging strike. I've noticed especially Doug Eddings doing this. He does it for third strike, balls just in the dirt, but that don't get away from the catcher. I guess this mechanic is being substituted for the "safe" signal used when a ball is not caught.

The correct mechanic in professional baseball on an uncaught third strike is for the plate umpire to point straight out with his right arm to indicate that the ball was not caught. If it is a very close call as to whether or not the catcher caught the ball or if it hit the ground, the plate umpire will usually make a regular "safe" mechanic sign to sell the call. With that being said, the guys in the bigs can basically do what they want, but this is the correct procedure for the rest of pro ball.

With regard to the point about umpires verbalizing where a pitch was: for instance by saying, "ball-that's out," or "ball-that's down." This is acceptable in pro ball. I believe the upside to doing this is to let everyone (ie.the dugout) know where that close pitch was. It shows that the umpire is recognizing it was close, but he knows exactly where that pitch missed and is confident of such. On the other hand, the downside of saying where the pitches missed opens you up to comments from the dugout saying that the ball wasn't "out" or wasn't "in." Obviously, you would only want to do this a few times a game, not on every pitch.

Our HS association has discussed the growing movement towards looking to the side a pitch was off the plate after calling it a ball. The dugouts can see high or low, but not off the side. This tells them why a ball was called. I personally have not adopted any method of indicating why I called a pitch a ball.

How to handle it...
 

Here's the wind-up...and the pitch -

PU: Ball!

Coach in the Dugout: Where was that?

PU: Not over the plate.


I was at Wrigley a couple times this year and clearly heard a couple of those monsters say, "Ball, outside" or "Ball, low" and almost peed my pants. I was with a few guys who have been at it for a long time and we couldn't believe it. How long has Tony Larussa been watching pitches? He should be able to tell how his catcher caught it. Is it below the knee? Whether it's outside or below the knee, what difference does it matter, he called it a ball. I love those coaches that say, "That wasn't low, so it had to be outside." Thanks coach, I hope mensa has you on speed dial for the one's that they can't figure out.

i wonder...
 

I wonder if this new "fad" of verbalizing pitch location comes out of timing. One of the tricks I have been taught is to see a strike, say "strike" to myself, call it.

I could see, as a teaching tool only, to "call the ball." See it a ball, say "ball, low" to myself, then verbalize it. After doing this for a while it could easily become a habit, albeit a bad one.

Are these guys that are verbalizing the ball call in the bigs, young guys or old dogs?

Re:
 

Judging by your previous post, I can tell you don't umpire at a high level. First of all, if a manager asks you where a pitch was - you answer the question with a location, NOT a smart a$$ remark.

And as for you almost wetting your pants because of certain styles of MLB umpires, well that's why you PAY for a ticket to get in the game and those guys you make fun of are PAID to work those games. Enjoy being a baseball FAN because I know you're not a baseball umpire.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 12th, 2004 at 05:48 PM]

Re: Re:
 

Sorry, Sal:
In my part of the world, as well, "top" umpires are just as likely to use Windy's "S-A-" response [or a variation: "Not in the Zone"]. If the CATCHER asks "was that outside, Blue?", he might get a location response; but we don't owe the Coach an explanation.
"Where was that?" is a form of chirping: arguing judgment calls.

I am shocked
 

I can't believe that WindBag has not responded to this unwarrented attack. Let me respond for him. I'll try to do my best WindBag immitation as I put this usurper in his place.

Sal,

I've worked games that you only dream about. I've got a decade of minor league experience and another 15 years of NCAA experience on three D1 staffs. I've worked regionals and super regionals and have turned down the CWS in order to give riff raff a chance at the big time.

Joe Brinkman pays me a consulting fee to assist him in his umpiring. I was in the locker room after the Houston/Atlanta game to critique the umpires.

You're definitely a pup if you don't understand that a coach is arguing balls and strikes when he asks where a pitch is. Only a little league umpire answers a coach's question with regards to pitch location with anything other than a smartass response. Which little league do you work in?

You had to edit your post? How bad was it before you edited it?

WindBag

Bob
Let me clarify something before this gets blown out of proportion.

Scenario:

3rd Inning: Count 1-1

Pitch comes in just off the corner
Umpire: "Ball"
Manager: "Where was that Sal?"
Umpire: "Balls out"
No reply by the manager

How is that considered "Little League" or a manager starting to argue balls and strikes.

Same scenario:
Pitch comes in just off the corner
Umpire: "Ball"
Manager: "Where was that WindBag?"
Umpire: "Not over the plate"
Manager: "No $hit, you called it a ball - was it down or out"?

I think there's better ways to handle a manager on balls and strikes that with a smarta$$ remark to a rather harmless question (ofcourse how he asks the location and how often makes a big difference).

My point is that comments like that are only going to escalate situations and may result in unnecessary ejections. Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to run managers/coaches over balls & strikes. However, if I can communicate to players and coaches in a manner that will keep them in the game, I will work towards that rather than coming off as a red a$$.

Furthermore, if you are who you say you are, then why are you o.k. with a person calling MLB umpires "monsters" and slamming them for personal style differences. Talk about unwarranted attacks! I apologize to Windy City if I came off a little harsh but I feel strongly about how umpires communicate on the field. I'll leave it at that. As for umpire resumes, you don't know me but if you want to compare - feel free to email privately at [email protected]

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 13th, 2004 at 07:20 AM]

Sal, I see your point, but I have to ask: what does a manager hope to accomplish in asking you where the pitch was? He's not pitching, so he doesn't really need to know "where your zone is." I think that concern over this point makes people think that the coach is chirping.

It might be practical and customary as you move up to answer this question out of courtesy. And I'm sure that some coaches ask more than others.

I'm a relative novice to umpiring, and I'd really like to understand what coaches might be aiming at by asking the location of a pitch. Thanks.

mbyron,
It's hard to figure out why managers do some of the things they do. However, in this particular situation, perhaps he senses some fustration on the part of his pitcher or catcher and he's "going to bat" for them.

Bottom line here is how you communicate on the field is a direct reflection of how you are perceived as as umpire. If the manager harmlessly asks the location of a pitch in a non confrontational manner, then I will probably extend the same courtesy back to him with a reply. However, if he continues to ask or his tone of voice changes, ie. "Where was THAT pitch", then you have to change your demeanor and treat the situation accordingly.

There is a drill at umpire school and other clinics I have attended that addresses this issue (aka sniper fire from the dugout). I was never instructed to handle a coach with a smart a$$ remark when they occasionally question the location of a pitch. I think that goes for training purposes and live game situations as well. This is my opinion and apparantly, others may disagree. Perhaps the truth lyes somewhere in between. I'm just trying to share what has worked for me. Good luck to you in your umpiring career.

Sal,
I didn't see your post, but it made me laugh. Bob said enough. Umpires explain pitches when they don't know any better. Don't worry, it'll get easier.

WCB

Coaches snipe or ask stupid questions, and some of the lines that go through my head would make Seinfeld proud.

But I have learned to refrain from the smart a$$ answer. It always seems to escalate the situation. I am now much more adept at answering in such a way that he knows he is getting on my nerves, that exasperated type of response that lets him know I've about had it with the questions.

In my younger days, I tossed coaches for sport. I never tossed one that didn't deserve it, but I did nothing to defuse the situation, or nothing to "game manage" to keep everyone around. I still got great evaluations and moved up the ranks (and no, I never did any minor league baseball, Windy, as it is not available in our area, and I was not about to give up my real job to travel for minor league ball), but since I have gotten older and wiser, I have learned that the chip on the shoulder, "I'm in charge no matter what" type of attitude just isn't necessary. In 120-150 games a year, I now average 1-2 ejections, and zero smart a$$ responses. And no, the coaches aren't getting away with more, I just am not looking to put them down, or "keep them in their place". I know who's in charge on the field, and I rarely have to remind anyone of it.

Beleive me, I WANT to give a smart a$$ answer, I THINK the smart a$$ answer, I have just learned not verbalize the smart a$$ answer.

I'm with Atl here - I toss one or two folks a year, but I perceive my objective as keeping players and coaches IN the game. I'm proud of my game when I can successfully diffuse a bad situation. I don't let people run over me, but my job is to umpire. Of course, I try to remember the lines I SHOULD have used - they make great conversation stories and will look good in my expose on umpiring baseball (if I can remember them when it comes time to write the thing). ;)

When I was younger, I explained why I didn't call the pitch a strike and let coaches question from the dugout. I started working with guys that nipped it early and put a hand up to stop coaches from even coming on the field. I saw that those guys kept the game rolling and actually were respected more BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXPLAIN EVERY CALL. If you let explain one close pitch, the flood gates will open and the rain delay begins.

My comment was simple and straightforward. The coaches that see me know better than to chirp. They know that if I called it a ball, it wasn't in the strike zone. I don't say, "It just missed." I may tell the catcher that he's not going to get those pitches, so he needs to adjust. That usually settles it.

JJ, I know that you don't explain your calls. When you were UIC for the AA series a few years ago, you didn't tell your crew to do this. It only leads to trouble. I don't consider what I said to be baiting. If a coach is seeing me for the first time, he'll usually gain some insight at the pre-game and will settle down after the first inning. If he doesn't, there is a remedy. If one of you feels the need to clarify your calls, that is not showing certainty, it is showing subserviance. It is not a matter of being omnipotent, it is about doing your job. We don't say, "Safe! He slid under the tag.", so why should you justify your plate work? But then again, I see guys that wear white socks and gym shoes on some fields.

I don't think you can give a general answer. They might simply want to know where the pitch was or they might be testing your demeaner and confidence behind the plate to get an edge latter in the game or perhaps they are try to get a feel for your zone. Most coaches are just looking for consistentcy. The bast unintended compliment that you will ever get is when you ring a guy up on a called third and the batter complains to the coach and you over hear the coach say "knock it off he has been calling that a strike all game. I see no problem in answering the question. It was up coach or it was out coach. Naturally you don't want this after every pitch but a few times per game is OK with me.

Atl Blue, Gordon and John Johnston (fellow CBUA memeber),

Thanks for the support - I thought for a second that I was the only one who was crazy. We've all been through our red a$$ years but at 34, I think mine are behind me (although I still get a one or two in the independent league in the summer time but I think that is because I'm a little itchy to get the season over with...ha ha). Take care guys and JJ, maybe I'll get a chance to work with you someday - if not in the spring, maybe in the summer time.

Sal Giacomantonio

In HS ball, I try and get the catcher to respond to the coach's question. This way the coach is not encouraged to continue chirping and many coaches assume that if F2 says it is low it must be low.

Does this work at college level?

Sal,
Come see me work at Alexian someday. I’ve worked with some of the best in this area and have never seen one let a coach ask where pitches are and question their calls. Since you claim to work indy ball, I can only pray that it is on my off day and I can watch you explain your calls at the dish. You won’t be the first 34 year old umpire to have peaked before they realize their dreams.

Working for Fetch is not an accomplishment. Pay the money, go to winter meeting and maybe you’ll get a non-conference game or two in DeKalb for the first five years. I prefer my schedule - at least I get seen and don’t have to kiss a** to do it.

I read what JJ and the others said. They are not advocating explaining your calls. They just don’t think that baiting a coach is a good thing. But, I bet if you pressed JJ enough, he’ll admit to baiting a coach or two in his career. Most of us have and there are some excellent reasons for doing it. When you get up here, we’ll explain it to you.

Yes, Alan, it works with some college catchers.

You may be better served to tell him, "Hey, he's just missing. I'll give you Time - go keep his head in the game and let him know how to adjust."

Some catchers are afraid to get in the middle of a big time coach and an umpire.

Windy City Blue,

Now I get it - I knew I sensed the bitterness in your posts. Nobody ever said working for Fetch was an accomplishment. I'll see you next summer in Crestwood (Windy City), Rockford or Sauget, IL (Gateway) if you want to make the drive.

WindBag buries another would be pretender to the throme. Your name wouldn't be Rich Rosenthal, would it?