Umpire HIT BY PITCH

[Atl Blue]

Again, if the pitcher and the catcher are intentionally trying to hit me, different issue. Both of their little a$$es are out of here.

But a lazy catcher is not an unsportsmanlike catcher. Kids go brain dead now and then. I coach them every day, beleive me, it happens to the best of them. Shoot, I saw an NFL tight end shoot off the line this weekend, a good two counts ahead of his teammates, then turn around and look back and wonder why no one else was moving.

Are these actions "unsportsmanlike"? Of course not. If the catcher is moving outside and not protecting you, get behind him. If he isn't getting the inside corner, he'll figure it out real soon.

In 35 years, I have gotten hit by a pitch for which the catcher did not move at all a grand total of once. I have had bad catchers many times, even in just the past season.

It's not the umpire's job to tell the coach to get a new catcher. Some umps want to tell coaches to change pitchers just because their pitcher has hit (pick a number) of batters. "Thanks for your opinion, I'll manage my own team thank you."

If you think it's intentional, run him. If it's not, I will say it again, suck it up and do your job. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my point.

[Dave Hensley]

Wow, this thread really separates the men from the boys. Atlanta Blue's comments are spot on. You guys bragging about threatening to eject a catcher just because you get hit a couple of times are, simply put, wimps.

What you're advocating is the moral equivalent of a batter charging a pitcher after getting hit. Juvenile and totally inappropriate.

Think about it - batters get hit by pitches with regularity, and they wear far less protective equipment than umpires, and they are expected to suck it up and take their base. And for the most part, that's exactly what they do.

HBP's are a part of the game, and umpires' getting hit occasionally is a part of the game, too. It's an occupational hazard, just like Atlanta Blue said. With proper positioning, proper mechanics, and proper protective equipment, serious injury is virtually completely avoidable, and those annoying bumps and bruises can be minimized.

If you can't stand the heat, there's always volleyball officiating.

[Kaliix]

Hey Dave, don't bring any macho crap into this. I have a total body stitch count of well over a hundred. I have done my job bleeding, exhausted, in great pain, and in need of surgery. I don't fear being hit and I have a pain thresh-hold that is better than most.

A catcher has one job and one job only and that is to be in front of that ball with his glove, his equipment or his body. If he vapor locks and doesn't move even a bit to that ball, he gets to make that mistake ONCE!

It happens again and it is intentional, whether he professes to have had a brain fart or not. He is getting tossed and if the manager has any problems with it, he'll go right after him. If you believe after a second occurence that the kid didn't do it intentionally, well... you know!

[David B]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Hey Dave, don't bring any macho crap into this. I have a total body stitch count of well over a hundred. I have done my job bleeding, exhausted, in great pain, and in need of surgery. I don't fear being hit and I have a pain thresh-hold that is better than most.

A catcher has one job and one job only and that is to be in front of that ball with his glove, his equipment or his body. If he vapor locks and doesn't move even a bit to that ball, he gets to make that mistake ONCE!

It happens again and it is intentional, whether he professes to have had a brain fart or not. He is getting tossed and if the manager has any problems with it, he'll go right after him. If you believe after a second occurence that the kid didn't do it intentionally, well... you know!

Kind of a crazy thread, but I wouldn't even think of getting rid of a catcher for such.

I've just never seen a F2 who would intentionally miss a pitch just so I might get hit!

Now I've seen plenty who missed the pitch simply because they couldn't catch.

But most of the umpires I've seen get hit a lot of times are those who usually have poor position behind the plate.

Just my 2cents

Thanks
David

[chris s]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Hey Dave, don't bring any macho crap into this. I have a total body stitch count of well over a hundred. I have done my job bleeding, exhausted, in great pain, and in need of surgery. I don't fear being hit and I have a pain thresh-hold that is better than most.

A catcher has one job and one job only and that is to be in front of that ball with his glove, his equipment or his body. If he vapor locks and doesn't move even a bit to that ball, he gets to make that mistake ONCE!

It happens again and it is intentional, whether he professes to have had a brain fart or not. He is getting tossed and if the manager has any problems with it, he'll go right after him. If you believe after a second occurence that the kid didn't do it intentionally, well... you know!

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Drop and block, good catchers know how to take care of us..just use a few FYC's. Ball a cock-shot or ring em on a ankle biter....that'll learn em.

[Kaliix]

For the record, I have never seen a catcher not move to catch a ball. I'd be surprised if more than a few people had.

To be clear, I am not talking about a catcher who can't catch, is slow to move or attempts but fails to block a ball. That is going to happen, no doubt.

I'm talking about a catcher who never even flinches toward the ball, and remains motionless while the ball sails on by. If that happens and I take a direct shot, that's the last time that mistake happens and the catcher stays in the game.

That is kinda my point. It almost never happens. To happen twice in the same game isn't coincidence.

[tornado]

"I've just never seen a F2 who would intentionally miss a pitch just so I might get hit!"

Think again...I played with a catcher in Colt ball many years ago who would call for a ball in the dirt and "miss" it when he thought the ump wasn't very good. Teenagers have a different perspective on life...

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by tornado
"I've just never seen a F2 who would intentionally miss a pitch just so I might get hit!"

Think again...I played with a catcher in Colt ball many years ago who would call for a ball in the dirt and "miss" it when he thought the ump wasn't very good. Teenagers have a different perspective on life...

It does not only happen with teenagers. Each year in my association, we have at least one ugly incident where a college or men's league catcher deliberately misses the ball in order to get back at an umpire.

The last time that I used an FYC (2000 or 2001) concerned a catcher missing the ball deliberately. It happened in the eighth inning and everybody knew what had happened.(My partner came to me between innings and asked why I had not ejected the catcher.) Instead, I waited until he came to bat in the top of the 10th inning. I told the catcher (of the other team) to line up 6, 12, and then 18 inches outside for three pitches. I called them strikes all three times. When the batter voiced his displeasure on the last pitch, I ejected him. I should have ejected him in the eighth inning and it was a mistake to handle it the way that I did, but I sent a big message.

I have been faced with less than competent catchers even at high levels. Sometimes the good catcher gets hurt and the backup is no good. In men's league games, I have gone to the mound or even behind the screen on one occasion. In college ball, I have done something which may work for the rest of you:

Use the scissors and position your crotch behind the catcher's helmet. In other words, if the catcher lines up outside, you are out there with him. You are using his body to block the ball. Place both arms behind you like a little league umpire. Get down as far as possible so that your head can barely see over his shoulder. Your head should be at the same level of the catcher's head.

If the catcher moves on the pitch, move with him. Forget about good mechanics or seeing the ball. If you do not see the pitch (and that will happen 2 or 3 times a half inning with these mechanics), call a ball. Eventually, the coach will get the message and put in a catcher who can at least block the ball.

Peter

[chris s]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

It does not only happen with teenagers. Each year in my association, we have at least one ugly incident where a college or men's league catcher deliberately misses the ball in order to get back at an umpire.

The last time that I used an FYC (2000 or 2001) concerned a catcher missing the ball deliberately. It happened in the eighth inning and everybody knew what had happened.(My partner came to me between innings and asked why I had not ejected the catcher.) Instead, I waited until he came to bat in the top of the 10th inning. I told the catcher (of the other team) to line up 6, 12, and then 18 inches outside for three pitches. I called them strikes all three times. When the batter voiced his displeasure on the last pitch, I ejected him. I should have ejected him in the eighth inning and it was a mistake to handle it the way that I did, but I sent a big message.

I have been faced with less than competent catchers even at high levels. Sometimes the good catcher gets hurt and the backup is no good. In men's league games, I have gone to the mound or even behind the screen on one occasion. In college ball, I have done something which may work for the rest of you:

Use the scissors and position your crotch behind the catcher's helmet. In other words, if the catcher lines up outside, you are out there with him. You are using his body to block the ball. Place both arms behind you like a little league umpire. Get down as far as possible so that your head can barely see over his shoulder. Your head should be at the same level of the catcher's head.

If the catcher moves on the pitch, move with him. Forget about good mechanics or seeing the ball. If you do not see the pitch (and that will happen 2 or 3 times a half inning with these mechanics), call a ball. Eventually, the coach will get the message and put in a catcher who can at least block the ball.

Peter

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You are a ruthless SOB, I would love to work with ya!!!!!!

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
...a lazy catcher is not an unsportsmanlike catcher. Kids go brain dead now and then...

Yep. Some more than others.

...If the catcher is moving outside and not protecting you, get behind him. If he isn't getting the inside corner, he'll figure it out real soon.

This isn't reaaly possible. It sounds good but you know as well as I do that a catcher can move outside and STILL PROTECT you. How could I possibly know the one or two times that he is going to go brain dead and NOT PROTECT me/you?

In 35 years, I have gotten hit by a pitch for which the catcher did not move at all a grand total of once. I have had bad catchers many times, even in just the past season.

No wonder you feel the correct response is to suck it up. If you only had to do it once in 35 years, then you are absolutely right. SUCK IT UP. I don't believe anyone here has advocated ejecting on the first occurence... so you've never had that opportunity, not having ever been in the position of getting hit twice.

I didn't really count or pay attention, but at first blush, I immediately recall 4 times that I was hit THIS SEASON with the catcher making absolutely no effort. Three of those times hit protected areas. One was a foreign student who had never played baseball and got stuck as catcher... smack a straight shot to the mask. The kid didn't know his responsibilities. Another was an adult playing in a tournament as a substitute for the regular catcher and he was very tired - one in the shin guard and once to the shoulder. This most recent time was a 17 year old kid that was just being lazy - too lazy to reach across his body and catch a very regular pitch. He was most likely upset about being required to play catcher - he wanted to pitch. This is the one that hit me in the unprotected area of that bone end sticking out from the side of my elbow.

In all cases, I sucked it up, and we continued with the same catcher. So in the elite world vision of Hensley, I'm a man. Yeah right; that's the difference between boys and men. I feel my comments are "spot on" too so perhaps we are arguing different perspectives of similar but different situations.

Oohh and the 4 times this season is just that... this season. Most of the other occassions in the other 25 years I've forgotten about. Never kicked a catcher yet for me getting hit. Probably won't start anytime soon either.

It's not the umpire's job to tell the coach to get a new catcher. Some umps want to tell coaches to change pitchers just because their pitcher has hit (pick a number) of batters. "Thanks for your opinion, I'll manage my own team thank you."

I think you have misunderstood what these people are saying. They are not suggesting that the coach has a choice - this is just a polite way of ejecting a player without going through all the emotional arm waving and the confrontational stuff of "You've got to justify this." ... and of course the follow-up requirements for having ejected a player.

Now, it is an important point that I really cannot do a good job if I think I'm going to get hit at any unknown moment. The natural response to flinch is ovecome as an umpire learns that he is wearing protective gear that will cushion most of the blows and that the catcher will stop the ball before it reaches the umpire. Getting hit several times, quickly removes that no-flinch training - I'm jumping out of the way of every pitch. Now I cannot do my job because of the catcher I have working in front of me. Coach, you want a good job? Get a catcher that does a good job. Simple. Call it an ejection if you want. I think it is just a way of making the game go smoothly and allowing me to do a proper job.

If you think it's intentional, run him. If it's not, I will say it again, suck it up and do your job. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my point.

Didn't miss your point at all. Hopefully you didn't miss mine either.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
...What you're advocating is the moral equivalent of a batter charging a pitcher after getting hit. Juvenile and totally inappropriate.

Think about it - batters get hit by pitches with regularity, and they wear far less protective equipment than umpires, and they are expected to suck it up and take their base. And for the most part, that's exactly what they do.

Not even remotely the same thing. Batters and catcher are allowed to move. This movement reduces the force of the incoming ball. Not so for the non-moving umpire - the full force of the thrown ball is absorbed at the location of the impact. That's why umpires buckle and hit the ground. That's why Atlanta Blue has suffered two broken wrists. I could likely catch a few fast balls bare handed - fans do it for homerun balls. But, hold your hands still and let the pitcher bean them. My guess is broken hand guaranteed.

HBP's are a part of the game, and umpires' getting hit occasionally is a part of the game, too. It's an occupational hazard, just like Atlanta Blue said. With proper positioning, proper mechanics, and proper protective equipment, serious injury is virtually completely avoidable,...

And the broken wrists...? Probably just a fluke. ... Twice.

If you can't stand the heat, there's always volleyball officiating.

Now that wouldn't be very manly... would it? Course I've seen volleyball players get knocked out, noses and fingers broken. What a bunch of wimps! Of couse that was the players and not the official.

[Tim C]

I am completely astonished that any umpire would dump a catcher along these lines.

Setting up an umpire to get hit INTENTIONALLY is one thing, just getting hit becasue the catcher is bad is another.

ANY of you that say you'd dump the catcher are truely, as David stated, whimps.

They had trouble finding officials for table tennis at this years Olympics . . . there are still are places for you guys to work.

Lah Me!

Tee

[mcrowder]

Some of you guys have no place being on the field. Your job is to officiate. Not get revenge on players. Absurd.

[Kaliix]

Tim and mcrowder,
Who exactly said that they would dump a catcher because they were bad, ie. the catcher moved to block/catch/stop a ball but missed. I don't believe anyone did.

You guys are just trolling...

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Tim and mcrowder,
Who exactly said that they would dump a catcher because they were bad, ie. the catcher moved to block/catch/stop a ball but missed. I don't believe anyone did.

You guys are just trolling...

Gee, I guess a lot of us can't read because:

Jumpmaster
Sep 20th, 2004 11:16 AM
“If that doesn't fix the problem, "Coach, get me a catcher."”

Kaliix
Sep 20th, 2004 11:34 AM
“You don't move again, and I'll take it as you doing it intentionally and I will toss you!"”

gordon30307
Sep 20th, 2004 12:11 PM
“Before the inning is over I tell the coach to get someone else in here”

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Sep 21st, 2004 02:13 PM
“I let the catcher's coach that if the catcher did not start doing his job, that coach would have to find a new catcher.”

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Sep 21st, 2004 03:14 PM
“But when a cather makes NO attempt to do his job behind the plate and the umpire is getting hit with pitches that, with ordinary effort, should be caught by the catcher, then that catcher does not deserve to stay in the game.”

DownTownTonyBrown
Sep 22nd, 2004 03:15 Pm
“Coach, you want a good job? Get a catcher that does a good job. Simple. Call it an ejection if you want. I think it is just a way of making the game go smoothly and allowing me to do a proper job.”