Revised 2nd situation, check swing 4th out.

[BJ Moose]

OK Sam... got it now. Consider:

R2, R3. 2 outs. 2-2 pitch. CHECKED SWING, ball caught CLEANLY, and now catcher FIRES to third to attempt pick off. Ball sails into LF. R3 scores.. R2 rounds and comes home and is TAGGED out on a banger! 3 outs.

NOW....MAY defense appeal the checked swing call. (Batter practically screwed himself into the ground!)

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
OK Sam... got it now. Consider:

R2, R3. 2 outs. 2-2 pitch. CHECKED SWING, ball caught CLEANLY, and now catcher FIRES to third to attempt pick off. Ball sails into LF. R3 scores.. R2 rounds and comes home and is TAGGED out on a banger! 3 outs.

NOW....MAY defense appeal the checked swing call. (Batter practically screwed himself into the ground!)

This situation is now basically the same as Sit#1, in my mind at least . Since the strikeout technically occured BEFORE the ensuing action, I would allow the checked swing appeal and call the batter out disallowing the run.

Now here's a wrinkle for you. Same situation as above, except - tie score, bottom of the last inning. Catcher fires, R3 scores winning run. Do you allow the appeal now?




My answer: Yes.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Since a check swing appeal AFTER intervening action MUST be entertained (OBR 9.02c note), and since doing so will cause violent disapproval, the umpire should anticipate this situation. When an umpire calls "ball" but does not clearly see a non-swing on a pitch out of the zone and then some ensuing action occurs that would be different had the call been "strike", the umpire should TAKE IT UPON HIMSELF to ask for more information and CALL IT LOUD if it is a strike. Admittedly, that gives the crew a lot to do in a short time, but it prevents a bad image and argument.

The simplest example:

PLAY: Empty bases, two strikes, batter half-swings, the pitch goes to the backstop. The umpire calls "ball" but isn't 100% sure that he went around.

BAD RULING: Wait for the catcher to ask for an appeal. The runner now is an easy target if the call is corrected.

GOOD RULING: As soon as the umpire hears the ball get past, he should take it upon himself to "appeal" to the BU for a ruling, to give the BR the fairest chance to go to first.

I know that the onus is on the runners to beware of check-swing call changes, but that doesn't mean we can't ask for more information (9.02c).

Just what I've learned,

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Jan 16th, 2001 at 06:30 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
Since a check swing appeal AFTER intervening action MUST be entertained (OBR 9.02c note), and since doing so will cause violent disapproval, the umpire should anticipate this situation. When an umpire calls "ball" but does not clearly see a non-swing on a pitch out of the zone and then some ensuing action occurs that would be different had the call been "strike", the umpire should TAKE IT UPON HIMSELF to ask for more information and CALL IT LOUD if it is a strike. Admittedly, that gives the crew a lot to do in a short time, but it prevents a bad image and argument.

Right. But the question is "What to do if the umpire doesn't follow the correct mechanics?" I say grant the strike-out. Others may disagree.

(BTW, Moose's revision is (approximately) how I read the original play. I missed the third-strike not caught aspect.)

[BJ Moose]

With all due respect, this piece of wisdom (below) is downright Stoopid as applied to the sitch.

WE ALL KNOW that PU can ask for help himself.. but look at the sitch. Balls are flying, fielders are running, RUNNERS ARE RUNNING, bases are being touched, Runners are SCORING, dogs and cats are living together...

And you are going to take your attention OFF of all this ACTION to look out at BU and ask, "Did he go?" Oh sure!!

Besides, under no circumstances, (other than the nimrod test) would the BU even be looking at you. He's already turned with the throw to the OF, and may be ready for a play at 3rd.

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
the umpire should TAKE IT UPON HIMSELF to ask for more information and CALL IT LOUD if it is a strike. Admittedly, that gives the crew a lot to do in a short time, but it prevents a bad image and argument.

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Jan 16th, 2001 at 06:30 PM]

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by BJ Moose

... SNIP ...

WE ALL KNOW that PU can ask for help himself.. but look at the sitch. Balls are flying, fielders are running, RUNNERS ARE RUNNING, bases are being touched, Runners are SCORING, dogs and cats are living together...

and don't forget the lions lying with the lambs part...

BTW, I agree with you. In this situation, the BU is going to be too busy for a while to respond to a "Did he go?" question. The only choice is to wait for the action to stop and sort everything out afterwards.

[DDonnelly19]

Kind of digressing from the topic, but since we're on s#@%houses...

1997 Memorial Day tourney, 13-yo. Rain during the weekend has forced me to work 7 games that Monday. Championship game, I've got 3B in a 3-man crew. Bottom of 7th, 1 out, home team down by 1. R3, batter flies out to right center. Because the PU has screwed up so many calls earlier, I swing around and watch the tag-up on R3, just in case he wasn't watching. R3 takes off, to me, slightly before the catch is made. No throw at the plate. Tie game home team is going wild. Visitors call time, manager talks to the pitcher. Seems like it's forever, but I know they're going to appeal. I know what my call is going to be, so I move into the "C" spot so that I've got a clearer shot for a quick exit. (In retrospect, had it not been my 7th game of the day, I might have been a little more forgiving.) Ball is put back in play, pitcher steps off and throws to third. I pause for that dramatic second and call "Runner's OUT!" All hell breaks loose -- visiting team is celebrating, home team is trying to kill me. I become disoriented and forget which side to exit. Home coaches are starting to surround me, so I bolt for the nearest exit, which happens to be the home dugout. I'm lost, so I look for the rest of my crew and they've already left through the visiting dugout, leaving me for dead. I finally make a mad dash for the gate, hop into the back of a cart and wheeled away to safety. Even a year later the team recognizes me and says, "Aren't you the guy who blew that call for us?"

[Bfair]

Oh great antlered one, yes, with all that going on you DO yell "did he go". With experience comes habit.

And to the young and knowledgeable Patrick (who seems to have the right answer too often for someone so young) I say, you are too idealistic. Yes, you know the right mechanic, but too many times you'll be stuck with a partner who doesn't. Then you find yourself as BU in the sitch.

You need to remember for every one on the boards trying to learn more and advance their abilities, their are at least a hundred more who aren't here (and if they are lucky read their rulesbook through once a season).

I will bet most umps around country have not heard of NAPBL yet alone J/R, JEA, or BRD. Those are the ones I get for partners.

[cmcallm]

Happened to me -

Three-man crew. Two out, runner on 3rd, two strikes on the batter. Pitcher pitches, in the dirt, half swing, ball to the screen. Catcher gets ball, fires to pitcher covering home, plate ump calls "SAFE!". Here comes the defensive coach. Heated discussion, followed by ejection. Order is restored, and catcher asks "Did he go"? 3rd base ump says "Yep". Throw to first, batter out, cancel the run. THEN the fun began!

Right call. Horrible timing.

[DDonnelly19]

Originally posted by cmcallm
Happened to me -

Three-man crew. Two out, runner on 3rd, two strikes on the batter. Pitcher pitches, in the dirt, half swing, ball to the screen. Catcher gets ball, fires to pitcher covering home, plate ump calls "SAFE!". Here comes the defensive coach. Heated discussion, followed by ejection. Order is restored, and catcher asks "Did he go"? 3rd base ump says "Yep". Throw to first, batter out, cancel the run. THEN the fun began!

Right call. Horrible timing.

WHOA!! That can't be right! Check-swing on 2 strikes, all hell breaks loose, ejections occur (after time has been called), ball put back in play, and THEN an appeal and the play is made live again?

Once the play has been killed, that's it, no appeal allowed. It's been discussed before if the "must appeal check-swing" has a time limit, and I think this is a good example of when time runs out, especially after the ball is made dead.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by Bfair
Oh great antlered one, yes, with all that going on you DO yell "did he go". With experience comes habit.

And to the young and knowledgeable Patrick (who seems to have the right answer too often for someone so young) I say, you are too idealistic. Yes, you know the right mechanic, but too many times you'll be stuck with a partner who doesn't. Then you find yourself as BU in the sitch.

Upon consideration, I agree more with this position--there are some situations where the crew will be too busy for the BU to overturn the call.

As for when the UIC doesn't come to you until later, you'll just have to answer anyway, right?

P-Sz

[BJ Moose]

WHY?? Look at the sitch! There is a casophony of STUFF going on out there. Looking out into the diamond and yelling.. "DID HE GO?" at THAT time is a complete waste of breath and time. PARTNER AIN'T LOOKING AT YOU, he's looking at the ball!

Attn: readers. Do not be confused. I get help! I like help! I like myself! If this play is gonna be appealed, its gonna happen after the fact.

As PZ said (its in NAPBL), there are times when PU is gonna get the help IMMEDIATELY, without a prompt. But most likely... BU is gonna be in A in these cases.

Originally posted by Bfair
Oh great antlered one, yes, with all that going on you DO yell "did he go". With experience comes habit.

[Bfair]

Sorry Mr. Moose, this Rocky and the most of the flying squirrels in this neighborhood DO check immediately when that check swing happens on drop 3rd stirke situation. We know what the results are if we don't. It comes with training. At least in the HS and adult ball that I call it happens.

Occassionally I will run into a UIC who blows mechanic and my career has not been flawless either, but if you're in a bind, and BR stood at home, you've got to eat the call. If UIC didn't call strike (which he would have if he thought it was a swing) you must agree with him if you are BU and forget the strike. Too late to change to strike. It is your error as a crew that can put runner in jeopardy at that point, and you should not do that. Discuss later so both are aware of problem and to assure situation doesn't arise again without using right mechanic. Learn from mistakes.

Just what i have been taught,
Chalk this one up as just another sheet on that toilet paper roll of life,

[BJ Moose]

Mr. Dave speaks words of wisdom and truth. Perfect!