checking equipment

[jumpmaster]

my association, condoned by the state, does not inspect equipment before the game. We ask the coaches "are all your players legally and properly equipped".

My question - is this question sufficient to CYA if a player gets hurt by using illegal equipment?

FWIW, I have heartburn over this "only ask at the plate conference" policy. I am looking to open this can of worms in my association - if it is warranted.

All you scum sucking bottom dwellers - I mean lawyers , what say you?

[cbfoulds]

Can't speak for my fellow scum-sucking bottom dwellers:
For my own opinions, here goes~

Query: Does the rule book/ umpire manual prescribe equipment inspection? If yes, remember that NOBODY can modify a safety rule on a "local" level. That includes the state HS Assn.

Recent cases on umpire liability have suggested that establishing liability cannot rest on the legal principle of res ipsa loquitur = "the thing speaks for itself". What this means is, just like suing an MD [or a lawyer], you need an "expert witness" [another umpire] familiar with the standard of care or performance applicable to your community. The explicit rules in the Book can be argued to establish a nationwide standard of care. In the absence of a nationwide standard, the local standard expected of a reasonably competent umpire will prevail. In this context, your local pregame practices MIGHT set a [helpful] standard of care.

Only problem is: nobody really cares if there is illegal junk in the dugout. The nastiness starts when the illegal and unsafe equipment finds its way onto the field of play. I seriously doubt that the State or your Assn. is condoning allowing such gear to be USED. SOOooo ...

You don't inspect, 'cause the applicable Std. of Care doesn't require it; and in the 2d inning a kid brings an illegal bat that doesn't meet BESR & other stds. into the game, hits a shot that clocks F1 between the eyes, killing him. You could have/ would have found the illegal bat and removed it from the venue, IF you had inspected, but, you didn't. You COULD have noticed the illegal bat when the batter entered the box, but, really, how closely do you look?

My guess is, you get sued. Under these facts, the case probably goes to the jury. MAYBE you have a case [called a cross claim] against the kid's rat coach for lying to you and also for allowing the bat to be used, and against the kid who used the bat. But if the jury finds against you, gonna be YOUR name on the judgment, and good luck collecting reimbursement [called "contribution"] from the kid. And, as we have discussed elsewhere, win or lose, somebody has to pay your thousands of dollars in legal fees [defense atttorneys get paid win or lose - no contingent fees for defense and insurance lawyers].

My advice ~ ALWAYS do your job for safety issues. Anybody asks you to do less, ask 'em for a written indemnity and proof of financial responsibility; and when they look at you blankly and respond "HUNUH??!?": DO YOUR JOB.

--Carter

[David B]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
my association, condoned by the state, does not inspect equipment before the game. We ask the coaches "are all your players legally and properly equipped".

My question - is this question sufficient to CYA if a player gets hurt by using illegal equipment?

FWIW, I have heartburn over this "only ask at the plate conference" policy. I am looking to open this can of worms in my association - if it is warranted.

All you scum sucking bottom dwellers - I mean lawyers , what say you?

Our state has the same policy. We ask each coach "are your players properly equipped and is all your equipment legal."

We don't inspect equipment, but I have been known to amble over and give it all a look before the game.

And of course, we watch during the contest to make sure what is brought on the field.

I discarded several helmets this year and one bat.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

The IHSA instructs the umpires to check bats and helmets every time. Asking the question at the Pre-game meeting is just to cover the other problems that can occur like jewelry and gloves. It also deals with gloves and the many other types of equipment that we never check. But that is what the NF wants, so we are instructed to do it. It is better to be safe than sorry.

Peace

[Peruvian]

The AHSAA requires both umpires to check bats and helmets before each game. Good thing, too. You wouldn't believe the number of cracked helmets you find when you check the equipment.

[radwaste50]

IN New Mexico not only do we ask but both coaches sign a card at the plate meeting that states all equipment is legal and players properly equipped.

So all bats are checked for size wieght and shape and BESR
All Catchers helmets for NOCSAE (sp) and batting helmets for condition,
Its amazing the number of helmet breaks found or how many kids have to take a bat or two to the bus before we start

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
my association, condoned by the state, does not inspect equipment before the game. We ask the coaches "are all your players legally and properly equipped".

My question - is this question sufficient to CYA if a player gets hurt by using illegal equipment?

FWIW, I have heartburn over this "only ask at the plate conference" policy. I am looking to open this can of worms in my association - if it is warranted.

All you scum sucking bottom dwellers - I mean lawyers , what say you?

Just one thing, if you are operating FED rules, you have to inspect the equipment per FED 10-2-3a.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
Can't speak for my fellow scum-sucking bottom dwellers:
For my own opinions, here goes~

...

Only problem is: nobody really cares if there is illegal junk in the dugout. The nastiness starts when the illegal and unsafe equipment finds its way onto the field of play. I seriously doubt that the State or your Assn. is condoning allowing such gear to be USED. SOOooo ...

You don't inspect, 'cause the applicable Std. of Care doesn't require it; and in the 2d inning a kid brings an illegal bat that doesn't meet BESR & other stds. into the game, hits a shot that clocks F1 between the eyes, killing him. You could have/ would have found the illegal bat and removed it from the venue, IF you had inspected, but, you didn't. You COULD have noticed the illegal bat when the batter entered the box, but, really, how closely do you look?

My guess is, you get sued. Under these facts, the case probably goes to the jury. MAYBE you have a case [called a cross claim] against the kid's rat coach for lying to you and also for allowing the bat to be used, and against the kid who used the bat. But if the jury finds against you, gonna be YOUR name on the judgment, and good luck collecting reimbursement [called "contribution"] from the kid. And, as we have discussed elsewhere, win or lose, somebody has to pay your thousands of dollars in legal fees [defense atttorneys get paid win or lose - no contingent fees for defense and insurance lawyers].

My advice ~ ALWAYS do your job for safety issues. Anybody asks you to do less, ask 'em for a written indemnity and proof of financial responsibility; and when they look at you blankly and respond "HUNUH??!?": DO YOUR JOB.

--Carter

And who says the equipment/bat that you inspect is the equipment/bat they actually use to play the game.

Nobody would put out an illegal bat to be inspected (unless it was an umpire trying to test someone). I'm not saying that illegal equipment won't show up, it's just that if a coach/player knows that a bat is illegal, it won't be there for inspection. Can I still be held liable? Possibly.

How thorough does my inspection need to be? Do I need to put my hands on every bat and find the bruised/smeared/smudged BESR silkscreen? What about counterfeit bats - has the proper marking but is really an illegal one? Am I still liable? Should I have X-ray examination so I can see the internals? Should have a test bat submitted ahead of the game so I can perform material analysis to ensure an illegal material has not been employed in the design? Should I perform my own resiliency tests to ensure the bat construction is not too lively?

Inspection doesn't buy me crap except to say that it was done. It doesn't provide safety to the game and it doesn't ensure illegal bats aren't used.

If it really were a serious issue, bats would be provided by game management and controlled - locked up between uses and checked in and out with serial number identification, photo ID, etc. That would be a lot of fun and really add something to the game.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate but I don't really think inspection is all it is cracked up to be.

And Cracked Helmets. Yowza! Do you eject for that?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Inspection doesn't buy me crap except to say that it was done. It doesn't provide safety to the game and it doesn't ensure illegal bats aren't used.

If it really were a serious issue, bats would be provided by game management and controlled - locked up between uses and checked in and out with serial number identification, photo ID, etc. That would be a lot of fun and really add something to the game.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate but I don't really think inspection is all it is cracked up to be.

And Cracked Helmets. Yowza! Do you eject for that?

What, exactly, is your point?
Inspection may not "buy" you much. However, FED rules require it, as do some other youth league standards. The point of my post was simple: DO YOUR JOB. If you are required to inspect by the Rules, DO IT. Even if you are not required by the Rules, if there is an accepted proceedure which requires inspection, DO IT.

You'd be suprised at the amount of illegal junk I've seen in dugouts: usually, but not always, the owner of said junk acknowedges that it can't be used, and puts it away/ takes it off the field. By inspecting, at least I know that it's there, & can watch for it, in case some rat tries to use it. As for cracked helmets, who said anything about EJ? You just don't let 'em be used - or do you do nothing is a kid comes up to bat with an obviously defective helmet? Talk about Yowza!

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by cbfoulds

What, exactly, is your point?

Inspection may not "buy" you much. However, FED rules require it, as do some other youth league standards. The point of my post was simple: DO YOUR JOB. If you are required to inspect by the Rules, DO IT. Even if you are not required by the Rules, if there is an accepted proceedure which requires inspection, DO IT.

You'd be suprised at the amount of illegal junk I've seen in dugouts: usually, but not always, the owner of said junk acknowedges that it can't be used, and puts it away/ takes it off the field. By inspecting, at least I know that it's there, & can watch for it, in case some rat tries to use it. As for cracked helmets, who said anything about EJ? You just don't let 'em be used - or do you do nothing is a kid comes up to bat with an obviously defective helmet? Talk about Yowza!

Carter, I think perhaps you just haven't found anyone to fight with yet this week.

My point is quite plain. You quoted it. -- Inspection doesn't buy you much - it does not ensure legal equipment will be used because you don't have control over that equipment. Therefore, inspection does not directly ensure player safety.

My second point may have been less salient. By rule, the inspection criteria are not specified beyond requiring a sticker/silkscreen. I've seen on the internet proprieters that will silkscreen any bat. Got an illegal bat? Send it to them and get it silkscreened. Now the umpire will say "That's a legal bat! And you can use it." Safety of players not ensured.

The level of inspection is not specified but as an umpire on the field of play, I can do little more than find that a bat has a sticker. Hence, I tried to say that I feel, entering a team's dugout and making an official inspection is a futile exercise if you are trying to ensure player safety.

Personally, I feel a formal inspection is over-officious and does not ensure player safety.

That's enough said on my part.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I think you and I would have a lot more fun if we were working a game together rather than bickering about trivialities of the internet.

Undoubtedly, we have some common ground. Hope you have a great week!

Tony

[akalsey]

I think Carter's point is that even if inspections don't add any real measure of safety, doing what the rulebook and you local custom requires will offer some protection from a lawsuit.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Carter, I think perhaps you just haven't found anyone to fight with yet this week.
>>>>>
I think you and I would have a lot more fun if we were working a game together rather than bickering about trivialities of the internet.

Undoubtedly, we have some common ground. Hope you have a great week!

Tony

Entirely possible, Tony; I tend to get peckish if I haven't sued anybody in a couple days! That, and BB is pretty much over here until the limited Fall Ball season arrives in a month or so, so I may be suffering from "rhubarb" withdrawal!
--Carter