To me, the game is about the kids. Especially at age 12.

Tournament semi-final game, team at bat is down by sevearl runs and coming out of the losers bracket, everyone well behaved. Catcher gets signals from dugout and gives them to the pitcher. In doing so, his fingers are near the dirt and can be seen everywhere, including by the third base coach. First the coach started saying "Fastball here", "watch the breaking pitch". Next inning he says, "Got some heat here", or "keep your hands back" for the breaking pitch. I wander over to the other coach and quietly inform him of what's going on (since he didn't seem to be figuring it out himself).

Agree/disagree?

Leave it alone
 

Umpire, don't coach.

However, if you want to do something to help, simply tell the F2. Hey, they're stealing you signs.

Keep it simple.

Thanks
David

Agree or disagree to what? That it's ok for one team to steal signs, or that it's ok for you to give coaching tips during games? I will answer both.

When I coached I never really cared if the other team was trying to steal the signs. It was my team's job to hide them, disguise them, change them, etc. so they never got good information, even if they could steal them. I made it a "game within the game" and the younger kids especially loved it. It was like learning a new language that only our team spoke. Stealing signs is part of the game, at all levels, and so is playing games with signs.

Some summer leagues I work are very competitive, with good players and good coaches. Sometimes I might be tempted to give them a tip, but would not. In a tournament, it would not cross my mind. They are on their own. If I start giving them tips, what's next - "hey catcher, this kid can not hit a curveball".

I don't think a 12 year old should be throwning a curveball anyways.

First of all, there is no rule in any rule book that deals with sign stealing. It is not the job of the umpire to deal with this. You are interfering with the game here - the opposition figured out the code so what? It has nothing to do with officiating the game! It doesn't matter how old the players are, don't inject yourself into the game!

Agree to a Degree
 

Stealing signs is part of the game, and umpires should not go meddling in business that is not theirs, I agree.

However, there are times when an umpire NEEDS to inject himself into the game to prevent disasters.

14U A batter comes up to the plate, takes his sign from the 3B coach, then turns back and stares at the catcher signing to the pitcher. He does this before every pitch. The catcher even said to him, "Stop stealing my signs." The kid continued to look back. He popped out, and the inning ended shortly after.

I made it my business to let the batter's coach know his player was stealing signs from the catcher while at bat. I did not tell him that he had to change anything, but I impressed upon him that I did not want a fastball coming high and tight on a 14 year old kid because he didn't realize what stealing signs can do.

The coach was shocked his player was looking back, thanked me, and took care of the problem. While it's not my job to coach, it is my job to prevent problems when I can, even when it is something as routine as stealing signs.

Question....
 

Would any of you allow the batter to turn around and look at the catchers signal? Citation please.

Re: Question....
 

If these are young kids, I would dust the plate, and tell him that the pitcher might throw at him if he keeps it up. But under normal circumstances, the players should know that they should not do that, there is no reason for me to tell them anything. If the batter wants to risk getting hit, then that is up to him.

[Edited by LDUB on Jul 29th, 2004 at 03:05 PM]

Oh, nooooooooooo...
 

I hope you wouldn't do that. Stealing signs is as old as the game and there is no penalty for it. Most younger players have the pitchs called from the dugout anyway. What do we do next? "Keep your eyes forward, son."

Umpires are not tattlers...if the catcher can't hide his sign better, then shame on him.

I don't look for a cop when someone goes speeding by me. If they get caught it was because they were stupid...same thought as before.

Re: Oh, nooooooooooo...
 

Mabye I phrased it wrong. I meant I would never say anything, unless the kids were young. When I said young, I was thinking LL (10-12 years old.) And I wouldn't do it if he looked back once or twice. If it was his third time to bat, and the catcher and pitcher were getting mad at him, and I would tell him to watch out. I would not tell him to keep his eyes forward.

Luke,
You've been here a long time. You realize that any time we inject ourselves into the game, we are looking for trouble.
No matter what age, you - as the umpire, have no authority to do anything about it. Not only that, but it is just bad form. A lot of our younger members and guests think of umpires as police officers. We really aren't...we are like the broadcasters. We see something happen and then tell the world what we saw. It really is that simple.

I work a higher level of ball and see teams that have assitant coaches and pine riders who do nothing but try to steal the other teams signs. While they do gain an advantage by knowing about a pitch out or a steal, the are gaining thatadvantage through skill and guile. Is it any different from a defensive coach signalling a pitch out because he figured out the offensive coach's steal sign?
We certainly won't jump into that mess, no matter the age.

Your answers here have usually been well spoken and pretty solid. I'm concerned that you might be trying to "right a wrong" or protect the integrity of the game. Both are admirable but misplaced with this mechanic. The best advice I can offer is to admire good play and skill. The kid that is stealing the sign is just a little smarter than his competition - fair or not.

My high school coach would have at least one bench player trying to pick up the other team's signs. I don't see anything illegal about that.

-Jeremiah

The reason I was going to tell the batter was because I thought the pitcher might throw at the batter, and he might get hurt. But now that I think about it, I would not say anything. I said I would only do it if the players were very young, like LL. But in LL, pitchers don't throw at batter, they have enough trouble thowing strikes as it is. So I take it back, I would never say anything.

A few years back we had a team that was very good at stealing signs in our state Legion program. When they got to the State Tournament that information was relayed to the Legion Representative, and he actually stopped the game and came on the field to tell the umpires to "stop this immediately". The umpires told him, "Leave the field immediately or be removed, and if you persist WE will leave." He said it was unsportsmanlike to steal signs, and we said, "Then tell the coaches - ALL of the coaches - to tell their catchers to do a better job of hiding signs."
Stealing signs is as old as the game - and there are ways of doing it that are acceptable (not with binoculars from the centerfield scoreboard, as was tried at Wrigley Field). My only hope when I played the game was that when the sign-stealer told me "curveball" he was right!

"Ooooh, he get's a steak for hitting the bull!

"Did you tell him?"

"Yeah, I told him."

"Sh*t."

-----------You gotta love free signs!

I had a "stealing signs" situation recently. And although all those who have commented on this will probably still hold their opinion, theres a little twist I could use your opinion on.
This was a championship game for 13 year-olds here in So Calif, at the recent USSSA week long World Series.
It was 4-man, and I had 1B. First base coach would look into F2 to try and see what the sign was. Now, when he was doing this, he was maybe 1 step out of the box. Nothing out of the ordinary. This obviously gave him a better view, but even if he was in the box, he would have been able to see the signs, as F2 didnt do a good job at that at all.
Coach would see the sign, and then discretly hold down 1 or 2 fingers in his pocket. Then, coach standing in first base dugout, would see this, and start saying "One One One" or "Two Two Two." Loud enough for the batter to hear. And of course F2. Why F2 never caught on, who knows.
This was the first time I ever have seen something this blatant. I thought for a while about saying something, as inside, it bothered me. But then I thought, as mentioned above, its not my place. And although coach is not really "IN" the box, coaches stand outside it, behind it, in front of it, all the time. He wasnt blocking my view, etc.
Now, after the game, I asked my partners about it, and they all agreed, I should have told coach to get in the box. Tell him..."Hey coach, North-South is ok, but I need you in the box." I countered with the fact arnt, I giving tips, or "coaching" which isnt my place?
They mentioned the batter "getting one in the ear". They agreed that a batter getting doinked is probably going to happen at a higher level, but why not do some "preventive umpiring" now?
Im still on the fence on this. Anybody?

If it was so obvious to everyone, why did no one on the defensive team point out that the coach was out of the coach's box, and they would like you to make him stay in it?

I think there is no reason to tell the base coach to stay in the box, without someone complaining first. You are not protecting any batter by doing this. If F1 realizes that signs are being stolen, he is not going to throw the next pitch at the batter's head. He is going to call time, and tell his idiot catcher to hide the signs better. And if F2 can't hide the signs, then if they are smart, they will go to a full set of signs. So I think you did the right thing by saying nothing.

I keep 1B coaches away from 1B if they are stealing signs or not. If I am U1, I want a clear shot at the plate to see check swings, where the ball is etc. If the coach wants to leave the box, as you say "north or south", I don't care if no one else does.

But that space between the box and the baseline is MINE. It's my viewing lane. While I have no problem with teams and coaches stealing signs (hey, if they can do it, more power to them-it's part of the game), I would have moved him for MY reasons, not because of his sign stealing.

"Hey coach, need for you to stay back. I need to be able to see the plate. Thanks."

He said the coach was not blocking his view.

If the coach is between the box and 1B, he <B>IS</b> blocking my view, that's my point. I want that lane clear.

On a properly laid out 90' field, the box is supposed to be 15' from the baseline, but often they aren't due to smaller foul territory areas. If it really is 15', OK, he probably gets a step inside the box, but if it is less, as many HS fields are, I want him back out of the way.

As I said, I don't care if he steals signs, perfectly legal, and any good 13 year old catcher knows how to block the 1B coach and runner with his glove. Personally, I just don't want the coach between the box and the baseline, that is MY line of sight.

Did you read the original post where it said the coach did not obstruct his view?

LDUB:

Yes, I read it, but you are missing my point entirely. Call it game management, but even if I could see an eye chart being held up by the PU, if the 1B coach is between the box and the base line, I'm TELLING him, "Coach, you blocking my view, back up a step."

They never complain when you tell them you are being blocked. But if you were to say, "Coach, you can't be out there stealing signs" or "Coach, you have to stay in the box", you have just turned this into a pi$$ing contest.

Avoid all that. TELL him he's blocking your view. I don't care if he is really blocking it or not, he is somewhere where he really isn't supposed to be, and he is gaining an advantage from it. If he can still steal the signs from the box, good for him. But the easiest way of keeping him from taking advantage (which is how this post started in the first place) is to push him back by SAYING, "Coach, you're blocking ny view. I need to be able to see the batter and the catcher."

You say this is preventative, but what exactly are you preventing. You are preventing the coach from stealing the signs. Is that exactly what you want to do?

If I was managing a team, and you told my coach to get back in the box because he was stealing signs, I would not say anything. I would sit there and wait. But the second that the coach from the other team steps out of the box to talk to R1, and you don't tell him to get in the box, them I am goning to call time and come out to argue with you. Here is what the conversation would go like.

(ME) So you allow this guy to get out of the box, but you tell my coach to get back in the box when he leaves it, why is that?

(YOU) Well that's simple, it is because your coach was stealing signs, and I don't want him to be able to do that.

You are digging yourself a hole by telling my coach to get in the box.

What hole? He'd just eject you. No biggie.

Actually, I'd ask you what you were doing out of YOUR dugout. It fits the theme so much better. Then I'd eject you.

--Rich

Had it happen last week with a batter.
The catcher said, "Hey boy quit stealing my sings". I kinda smiled. Then the batter struck out or poped up I don't remember.
The catcher turned to me and asked "Did you see that guy stealing my signs?" I said "yeah, and a lot of good it did, he is on the bench." The catcher laughed.
So the next time the batter comes up, the catcher says, "Well here comes nosey" So I call time brush the plate and look dead into the catcher's eyes. He smiled and got the message.
No high and tight, I beleive the kid stuck out.
I agree that stealing signs is part of the game. And getting caught can have some bad results.
But if those bad results happen, ejection is the rule.

4.05

It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach's box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines. The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times. It is also common practice for a coach who has a play at his base to leave the coach's box to signal the player to slide, advance or return to a base. This may be allowed if the coach does not interfere with the play in any manner.

You would eject me for coming out of my dugout and asking for rule 4.05 to be enforced evenly? That makes a lot of sense. I am the opposing manager and I am out here to complain that this guy is out of the box, and that I would like you to enforec rule 4.05 and make him stay in the box. Would you rather that I just yell it out to you from the dugout? If I have something to say to you, I will come out and say it to you. Why would you take offense to a manager coming on to the feild to talk to you?

Thanks all for the advice.

LDUB---It wasnt obvious to everyone. The catcher, I guess was just clueless. Which is surprising, as this was the championhsip game, after a long week of 15+ games. So for a team to get that far, you figure, must be well-coached, players are in tune to stuff like that, etc. The batter could hear, obviously, so that means that F2 could. Why he didnt pick up on it, dont know.
ATL BLUE--Continuing on your theme of telling the coach to stay in the box, first of all he wasnt CLOSE to blocking my view, and YES, I know the true meaning of what you saying. But why play games? And, If I tell him he had to stay in box, what do you think happens the instant the opposing 1B coach steps one foot outside? Yup, the sign stealing coach now lets me know I need to make the OTHER coach stay in the box. And hes right. Now I just picked up the shi**y end of the stick.
The second I tell the unknowing opposing coach to stay in the box, I just opened the door. He asks why.
Sounds like Im instigating, and inserting myself way too much into the game.
Yeah, inside Im thinking this stealing signs (for this age group) is BS, but Im there to call safe/out etc, which I CAN see from my spot. Not alter the course of the game.

[Edited by chuckfan1 on Aug 1st, 2004 at 07:50 PM]

I'd tell you to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored.

I have to admit -- this board has gotten incredibly tiresome the past few weeks. I think I'm going to disappear for a while.

Kind of hard to distinquish this board from the others these days ain't it? I believe the current state of officialforum can be chronologically connected to the announcement that Rich Fronheiser was again writing for Officiating.com. ;)

Rich, I'm sorry, but you have contradicted yourself.

Let me sum up what has gone on in this thread so it is easier for everyone to understand.


chuckfan1 says in one of his games, the 1st base coach was moving out of the coach's box to steal the catcher's sigsns. He said he did nothing to stop him.

I say that chuckfan1 did the right thing by allowin him to steal the signs.

Atlblue says that he would make the coach stay in the box because he is blocking his view.

I say thathe umpire's his view.

Atl blue says that he is practicing good game management by keeping him in the box. If the coach can steal signs from the box that is ok, but he can't do it from outside the box.

I say that you should not try to stop a team from stealing signs. I also say you are going to get yourself in trobuble telling the coach of one team to stay in the box, but not the other. If I was manager of the team stealing signs, I would go up to the umpire and ask that both coaches be treated equally.

Rich says if he were umpiring the game, and I came up to him to ask that both teams be treated equally, he would ask me what I am doing out of my dugout, then eject me.

I point out rule 4.05, and indicate that it makes no sense to eject me for asking for this rule to be enforced evenly.

Rich replies "I'd tell you to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored."


I agree with Rich that this rule is normally ignored, and normally I would not ask for you to enforce this rule. But you have takeen it into your own hands (without the opposing manager complaning) to enforce a rule which you state is customaarilly ignored. So me, the manager, comes to you and asks you to enforce rule 4.05 against both teams. And you are going to tell me not to be picky? I do not think it is picky to ask that both teams be treated equally.

Rich and Atlblue, do you see what you have done? You attempt to prevent a team from stealing signs. You decided to enforce rule 4.05 with out anyone complaining first. And then you refuse to enforce rule 4.05 equally against both teams. That is some quality officiating.

But I'm the umpire!
 

I'm the umpire and I can enforce anything that I see needs to be enforced. It doesn't matter if a coach likes it or not.

There are many many many times when we enforce a rule for one and team and NOT the other.

Batter not in on-deck area
Coaches out of the dugout
F2 baiting a batter
F6/F4 baiting a runner
Pitcher doing a "don't do that" and we have to tell F2 to tell him to fix it

Maybe since I generally deal with kids that shave I look as this as common sense umpiring.

And if you're the coach and don't like it, tough.

I agree with Rich, if you came out on my field I'd give you two options. Enough said.

Wait, I missed something Rich is writing again for the main board????

Might be worth renewing my subscription. (g)

Thanks
David

Re: But I'm the umpire!
 

What something is worth is varies from individual to individual, but if you somehow found Officiating.com worth subscribing to without Rich's contributions, you would find it more so with his contributions.

Re: But I'm the umpire!
 

Everyone is missing the entire point of the thread. Atlblue said he would attempt to stop a coach from stealing signs, and that is it good game management to do so. Do you agree or disagree?

I attempted to point out that it is not the right thing to do, but it has spun out of control and changed topics to coachs out of the box.

Re: Re: But I'm the umpire!
 

My answer: It depends. ;)

If the coach is in a "legal" position (in the dugout, in the coach's box) there's nothing to do.

If the coach is blatantly cheating (standing in fair ground, using binoculars beyond the fence), do something.

In between?

For me, if I'd allow the coach's positioning if he wasn't stealing signs, I'd allow it if he was.

I see no reason at all to stop someone from stealing signs. It's part of baseball. Gaining an advantage against the other team by tricking them within the rules is perfectly okay. The other team should be expecting it and attempting to guard against it. That's one of the things I love about baseball -- being skilled in the sport requires more than athletic skill.

Well, this has raised some interesting issues.

I respect those that feel umpires should not interfere in stealing signs unless a rule (i.e. coaches being out of the box) is being broken. I don't entirely disagree.

Stealing signs is not against the rules, but if you've got the oppositions signs, why communicate it in such a way that your opponent might change them so you DON'T have that advantage? The game I called, the third base coach was verbally communicating them to the batter. Let's say we have one of those coaches on the other side that we all know too well, Mr. Bad Attitude. And let's say he does just what other suggested in this thread, has his pitcher (in this case a twelve year old) throw at another batter, then starts mouthing off from the dugout at the other coach about stealing signs, the other coach yells back about hiding them better, suddenly that 8-3 game doesn't become so much fun any more. And possibly has a kid hurt, as well.

Maybe it wasn't my place to do so, but neither do I think twelve year olds should be taught such a thing at their age. While it isn't against the rules, it isn't exactly fair, but it isn't quite cheating either. Certainly isn't good sportsmanship.

What could you have done to stop this guy from stealig signs?

Sorry, I took my football team to camp this week and missed the board.

LDUB: You have entirely missed my point. Where did I say I would not enforce this for BOTH teams? I do not care WHY a coach is between the box and the line, I don't care if he is stealing signs, or talking to his runner or calling his mother, it makes no difference. When we are in play, live action, with a pitch, I am backing ALL first base coaches back behind the coaches box line that runs parallel to the 1B line. That lane between the coaches box and 1B is MY line of sight to the plate, and NO first base coach is going to stand in that lane for ANY reason. It has NOTHING to do with stealing signs. If he wants to steal signs from the coaches box, great have at it, it's part of baseball. But he is NOT doing it from the space between the box and 1B, and it has NOTHING to do with stealing the signs, it has ONLY to do with I am not allowing ANY coach in that space.

North or south of the box, fine, I don't care. Back toward the dugout, away from the base, great, stand there if you want. But if you are the 1B coach, you will NOT stand between the box and 1B, FOR ANY REASON, especially on fields where that distance is squeezed t less than the 15' in the book.

Good grief, I am not against stealing signs. I am not enforcing this for one team and not the other. NO coach stands between the box and the base, FOR ANY REASON.

Ok thats fine, if you do it because it may block your view. I thought you were just saying that he was blocking your view as an excuse to get him in the box because he was stealing signs.

That still leaves Rich out there though. He enforces it for one team but not the other. And then when the manager asks for him to enforce it evenly, he tells him to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored, right after he just enforced it.

I'm not Rich but
 

I supported what Rich said so I'll throw in my 2 bits.

The other team did not have a coach out of the box. If he was then as Atl Blue stated he will get in the box.

I don't let a lot of coaches tell me what they are going to do. They have a place and that is where they will be.

If they don't like it I don't care what the other team thinks. I'm there to do my job.

If they want to steal signs is not the question. They can steal signs if they want. That is baseball.

As an umpire I do it all the time. Call it my hobby but I like to watch the coaches give signals and usually after a few innings by observing the game I pretty much know what they are going to do ahead of time.

I guess I was a F3 and F2 too long. We were taught as F3 to watch the coaches and find out the signs if we could. Pays dividends when you know what the team is going to do.

Thanks
David

one in the ear
 

Bout 5 years ago, Easter tourney/High school. Local catholic powerhouse vs team from Santa Cruz. Assistant coach with the last name Incaviglia, (Pete's brother, Rangers). Santa Cruz is staeling signs, big time. Inky directs his pitcher to plunk batter, not just one, but three. Big freaking mess, nobody gets tossed(still haven't figured that one out). Story makes the news/paper and ends up in CIF office for discipline, Inky loses job. And they say that high school sports are an extension of the classroom.....go figure

<i> Originally posted by LDUB </i>

<b> If F1 realizes that signs are being stolen, he is not going to throw the next pitch at the batter's head. </b>

Says who. Unfortunately in today's climate it would be nice to let the game take care of itself, but it doesn't. The simpliest things turn into nightmares.

Remember the On-Deck Nightmare in the Witchita St. Game. To me being in the wrong on deck circle and stealing signs are similar meaning one team is trying to gain an advantage.

The question is? As an umpire should we interject? The answer could be yes or no, meaning it depends upon the nature of the game.

Each game is unique and as an umpire you get a feel when things tense up or you feel something is going to happen.

Therefore, if you are umpiring rival teams and they do not like each other, then you do all the Preventative umpiring you can to avoid a possible fiasco and even then it doesn't work out sometimes.

It's like a basketball game in which teams are known to fight, ie; The OLD Miami Heat and NY Knicks. The referres would call that type of game closer than another game.

As far as your comment regarding the invoking of 4.05 IMO you do not have a point. Your coach is CHEATING, the Other Coach is simply talking to his/her player. IMO that's a BIG difference, which is the reason we instruct one coach to the box and not the other.

If your coach wants to talk to your players fine, but if he is simply out of the box to steal signs, then he is going back plain and simple. If you do not like it then as rich said - "see ya skip" and have a nice day.

If you as a coach want to be treated fairly, then do not cheat.

Pete Booth

Re: Re: one in the ear
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Nah, I wnt to that "catholic" school. The only folks throwing stuff were the Brothers....one of em had this big ol class ring.....top of the head wackage was inevitable!!! This was when beating kids was legal........


Nice to hear from ya Peter:)

Nice to see that your still hangin' in there Chris, regards, G.

My regards
 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr George Lucy, say hey buddy!!!!! Hanging by a thread.....going through divorce and newly diagnosed diabetes....I am a literal mess.....BUT....still hanging:)

That's been a loooong divorce, you must have the big bucks. Good luck. G.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

Actually.....she gets the bucks. Quite a bit of them!!!!! At least my new gal-pal has a great job and it is nice to fall in love again. Screw the rest!!!!!


Georgelucy @aol.com right??????

[email protected]



Catch ya later:)

Stealing signs is cheating? Let's check this out.

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game:


So where is this rule which says that stealing signs is illegal?

<i> Originally posted by LDUB </i>

<i> Originally posted by PeteBooth </i>

<b> Stealing signs is cheating? Let's check this out.

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game:


So where is this rule which says that stealing signs is illegal? </b>

OBR 9.01
(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

No I'm not using 9.01c as a "crutch", but it is impossible to put in EVERY single rule.

As I mentioned, the game dictates how one is to umpire. Some-times we interject when there are rival teams and sometimes we let the game "play out". It all depends, but the bottom line is: If your coach is leaving the box SPECIFICALLY to steal signs, he is going back.

BTW in a FED game, I could have the Coach restricted or EJ'D. It's FED rule 3-3-1g

<i> A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

committ <b> ANY </b> unsportsmanlike act to include but not limited to,

4. <b> behavior </b> in ANY manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. </i>

In Summary, there is no specific rule in an OBR based game to cover this, but in a FED game there is a SPECIFIC rule.

Pete Booth

<B>"In Summary, there is no specific rule in an OBR based game to cover this, but in a FED game there is a SPECIFIC rule."</B>

I don't see any such SPECIFIC rule in FED. Where is the language describing stealing signs as "not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"? You are still making a leap.

Obviously, in your mind, such behavior qualifies, but you are still intrpreting the rule to cover it. It is not specified.

In the minds of others it may be considered gamesmanship.

In the minds of still others it's just a prelude to a fastball in the ribs. :)

GB

Stop the madness...read.
 

How can you prohibit a runner on second from stealing the sign and indicating what the pitch will be?

Stealing/Obtaining/Intercepting the signals had been around since the advent of the game. We can and should keep coachs from straying from their boxes in order to do this, but even in the Pros, the signals come from the dugout and can be interpreted by the opposing team. That is why many teams use fake signs and multiple signal givers. Use your head when you are out there and try not to borrow trouble.

Even if the batter glances back and "steals" the sign, he still has to hit the pitch. Finally, many catchers call pitch outs because they think that they've stolen the steal sign from the offense. Are you going to discipline him, as well? I'm just trying to keep you on your toes!

You're exactly right, a runner giving the open-hand/fastball or closed-hand/curveball signal from 2nd base is stealing signals. And I'd bet in 95% of the cases, if it were being done in that manner OR in another manner where the opposing team would not catch on, it would continue and NOT be any fastballs in the ribs. In my example that started this thread, the 3B coach was VERBALLY telling the batter what was coming. In discussing preemptive umpiring, that's when I stepped in.

Whether I agree a coach should be doing it or not is really another story, but if it continued in THAT manner things quite honestly could get ugly.

K guys.....how many of ya
 

Steal signs in B or C? Look at it this way, you don't get in trouble unless ya get caught, now punishment depends on PO'd coach/players. As an ump, till someone gets clocked, screw it. As we say in football.....advantage/disadvantage. One team has an upper hand.....lets play!!!!

As one poster said, he swipes signs, me too. Advantage ump.AND, anybody on the D that has a clue. D gets caught, oh well. Show me the "one in the ear" is intentional, now we got some tossin to do, smart ump knows what is up. EARS work real well......ya gonna hear a bit of chirping before......WAKE_UP!!!!!!

Okay, who missed the last point of my post?

If you are going to penalize another coach or player for stealing the pitch signs then you'd better penalize the defensive players and coach for calling a pitch out when they've stolen the sign.

Yeah, I thought that would get a few minds churning.

If signs are getting stolen then get a better set of signs. We spend practice time with out catcher teaching them how to hide the signs. He is taught to give a glance up at the batter to check if he is looking, a runner at seocnd and we automatically go to a second set of signs. We have five different sets that we use. It just amazes me how many teams will still give one sign with a runner on second. Signs deserve to be stolen if you are that ignorant.

Re: Re: Question....
 

At higher levels, true, you may get a ball in your ear. It should be emphasized that throwing at hitters and brushing them back is actually an ART and SKILL that young pitchers do not typically understand or possess.

Seldom do you see a MLB pitcher, intending to hit a batter, throw at his head. They know how to hit a batter -or- simply brush him back and send a signal.

Young ballplayers aren't very good at either. If you tell a 12-yr-old pitcher to hit a batter, he may just as likely hit the batter in the head as throw a called strike.

Youth league coaches should NEVER instruct a pitcher to throw at a batter with the intent of hitting him - EVER! There is no violation so egregious that should ever require this.

Looking back at the catcher for the signal is so easily solved by the defense. All they have to do is give the signals as if there is a runner at 2nd. Every team has a signal pattern for those situations instead of giving a straight ... 1 is a fastball, 2 is a curveball, 3 is changeup ... etc. With a runner at second, they may give three signals, the only one that would count might be the 2nd signal. There are all kinds of effective variations. Any batter attempting to figure out that scheme would be more distracted than benefited. I would WELCOME him to continue the practice! I would rather have him concentrating on the signals than the pitch.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I had a coach come up to me and complain that the other team was stealing signs.

I told him quess you better change them then and walked away.

...which is part of the reason why many of us are perceived as having an "attitude".

No, it is a fact. How should we handle it when there is no penalty? Ignore him? Laugh? Fly into a tirade and eject him for making a travesty of the game? :}

C'mon, it was a simple, honest answer. Depending on inflection, it could piss off or calm. That is the difference between good and bad umpiring.

You could do what was just done...explain that there isn't a rule we can enforce in regard to stealing signs, therefore there's nothing that can be done....instead of making some snide remark and walking away.

It is true that stealing signs is part of the game. But looking back at the catcher is really *not* an acceptable part of the game.

There is no explicit rule against it, however. There is a DIFFERENCE between acceptable baseball protocol and what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules. The umpire should really only interject himself on the latter.

At the higher levels, the players have a way of dealing with violations of protocol. At lower levels, it is the *coach's* responsibility to deal with such matters.

If I saw batters looking back at my catcher's sign to my pitcher, I would start screwing with his mind. I'd call time, call my pitcher and catcher together, and in an instant the problem would be rectified. We wouldn't need to throw at the batter. All we have to do is contaminate his data input to such a degree that it quickly no longer becomes worth his effort. And it stops! No big deal.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Oriole35....what??? Did you read the last two sentences. I said that depending on how you state your decision will be the difference between being a good or bad.

I could have been snide and made a demeaning comment about your reply, but I simply stated the facts. How you interpret them is exactly what we are talking about. Even if I said, "Coach, you'll have to excuse my interruption, but I am well versed in the rules and mechanics of the game. Whilst, undergoing extensive testing, I read the rule book in its entirety and found no example of a penalty for the infraction you cited. Therefore, in my judgement, I cannot enforce a penalty for what you deem to be an infraction of the rules governing the game." If he is wound up, he's going to come unglued, no matter what you say. I'm not out there to bait him, but you just saw that a few simple sentences - without tone, inflection or stress - irritated you. Step back, deep breath - we are on the same side.

Not exactly
 

This is absurd - read your second paragraph again. You have stated several times that you have used your officiating knowledge to affect the outcome of the game. Now, we know that none of your players would ever be involved in this type of chicanery, but let's suppose that his moral base slipped and he chose to partake. Now, according to you...I must interject if I see him do this. What am I going to say? "Stop doing that or if you persist I'll eject you for unsportsmanlike conduct." What will you, as the coach do? You'll ask me to show you the rule that allows a penalty for stealing signs. Then you'll say that the catcher should hide them better.

Now, you are eloquent enough to say that I'm putting words in your mouth and argue that you would do no such thing. But we have all seen your past comments. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Not exactly
 

Ummmm....Windy, didn't Dave say that the umpirse should interject himself only in the latter case which would be "what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules" or did I miss something?

Ummmm....Windy, didn't Dave say that the umpirse should interject himself only in the latter case which would be "what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules" or did I miss something?

Yep, you missed something. All along, we've read posts asserting that there is no specific rule that prohibits opposing players from watching and interpreting the other's signals. How can an umpire step in and say, "You can't look back at the catcher's signs." only to have the catcher is look at the third base coach, see the steal sign and call a pitch out?

You will open a big can of worms if you start making up rules. Dave was using coach's logic with his "technically legal/illegal" jargon. Coaches love calling the technical balk on the opposing player but hate it when you call it on theirs. Don't be fooled. Just because the catcher shows "fastball, in" doesn't mean that is what is being thrown. Conversely, I've known coaches to give the steal sign and then an indicator to wipe it off, just to get the rattle the battery.

This is a no win situation - don't do it!

Re: Not exactly
 

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

All I'm saying is this - there is protocol and there are rules.

The umpire should only get involved with rule issues. The players have a way of dealing with protocol issues.

Looking back at the catcher is a violation of protocol. It isn't done. Yet, it's not illegal. So the umpire should allow it.

Now, as a coach, I am certainly not going to instruct my young pitcher to put the ball in the batter's ear. I am adamantly against such practices at the youth league level. I wouldn't even allow my son to play for a coach who instructed him to throw at a batter. There are other, very simple ways to fix the problem, even if the practice of looking at the catcher's signs persists.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not sure what your beef is.

As a coach, have I ever used my knowledge of the rules and how umpires operate to gain an advantage? Hell, yes! Do you think that is an unfair advantage? I don't see why since the opposing coaches have access to the same information. It' up to the <i>umpires</i> to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.

When I coach, I'm an advocate for my team. When I umpire, I'm advocate for the Official Baseball Rules.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN



[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 28th, 2004 at 05:06 PM]

Dave,
That's how I read what you wrote. Oh well...

I'm not sure what your beef is.

As a coach, have I ever used my knowledge of the rules and how umpires operate to gain an advantage? Hell, yes! Do you think that is an unfair advantage? I don't see why since the opposing coaches have access to the same information. It' up to the umpires to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.


No, it's up to the umpire to administrate the rules...you can still gain advantages (i.e. stealing signs)...it is up to the coaches to teach the players not to cheat and keep themselves from doing anything unethical. I have no problem with sign stealing, as I've said. I just don't like confusing younger umpires with protocol vs. technical. It is either a violation of the rules or it isn't. A lot of rookies are influenced by "spirit of the rules" comments from coaches and that is where I took exception. This is not a "J/R don't do that". In no way should an umpire step in and take issue with this. A rookie may have read it the other way and I thought I would clarify it. In the coming weeks, we will undoubtedly see another post that involves an umpire that involves himself in a "protocol" issue. I teach a lot of clinics and believe that good instructors provide all of the information or they don't discuss the issue. I don't like confusing rookies, the job is difficult enough. "My problem" was that you failed to identify what a "protocol" issue is and I'm sure a few guys may have come away with the wrong interpretation of your post.


"That is what I said, you fool." Inspector Clouseau

You're right about one thing, there *are* coaches out there who will try to get an umpire involved in a personal grievance that is completely of a "protocol" nature.

Here might be an example that some of you might find familiar:

A team is losing by a huge margin yet the other team is still stealing and bunting. Their pitcher is still attempting pickoffs and he has a 12-run lead. So the losing coach comes up to the umpire between innings and asks for some help. He wants the umpire to put an end to this "bulls&%t!"

<u>Issue</u>: It is a violation of protocol to continue to do "extra" things, whether on offense or defense, when your team is destroying another team. It's called "running up the score." You don't need to steal or bunt, and your pitcher should not be dragging the game on with any pickoff attempts. But it is *not* the umpire's job to put an end to it. It's between the two coaches. Now, if it turns into a beanball war, then it *does* become the umpire's business.

Now, there may be some subtle things an umpire can do to help out, but nothing terribly overt. You certainly can't tell the opposing coach HOW his team should play baseball nor preach to him about how the game is supposed to be played. A violation of protocol such as this should NOT be interpreted as unsportsmanlike conduct as some umpires think. Well, actually it *is* unsportsmanlike, but not the type of unsportsmanlike conduct that can get you ejected.

* * *

This is where an umpire's experience will hold him in good stead. You have to know the game of baseball to have an appreciation of the subtleties of protocol. When you understand it - you can anticipate how certain tensions might be building that could lead to a beanball war. This will give you an opportunity to use a wealth of game management skills to preempt this.

Now, if you're working with teams with young players and rookie coaches, you might take a brief moment and pass a tip to the coach as long as you are sure that it will be well received.

"Coach, you're winning 13-1. Are you working with your players on stealing or do you think you need a few more runs?" [g]

David Emerling
Memphis, TN