Immediate dead ball?

[greymule]

At the moment, I can't seem to remember how to make what must be a simple call.

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 1 out. Infield in. Daniels hits a one-hopper to F5. At the same time, F6 obstructs Baker.

Is this an immediate dead ball? In other words, do we assume that Baker was the runner being immediately played on? Or, since F5 had four possible plays and hadn't yet chosen one, do we wait and see what he does with the ball? (That is, if F5 plays on Baker, we call a dead ball and OBS. But if F5 throws the ball away at home or throws to 2B for the force and subsequent double play at 1B, we let the play stand.)

What if F5 started to run toward 3B (a play on Baker) but then threw home for an out?

[Rich]

Originally posted by greymule
At the moment, I can't seem to remember how to make what must be a simple call.

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 1 out. Infield in. Daniels hits a one-hopper to F5. At the same time, F6 obstructs Baker.

Is this an immediate dead ball? In other words, do we assume that Baker was the runner being immediately played on? Or, since F5 had four possible plays and hadn't yet chosen one, do we wait and see what he does with the ball? (That is, if F5 plays on Baker, we call a dead ball and OBS. But if F5 throws the ball away at home or throws to 2B for the force and subsequent double play at 1B, we let the play stand.)

What if F5 started to run toward 3B (a play on Baker) but then threw home for an out?

I'd play the obstruction as type B. I wouldn't necessary protect R2 to third base, either. If F5 catches a grounder and steps on third, would the obstruction prevented the out on the play? Nullifying the obstruction would mean that R2 was still out in this situation.

[greymule]

Now I'm really confused. I thought that whether the OBS affected the out on that player was irrelevant. In fact, a couple of years ago there was nearly universal agreement on this board that OBS should be called on a play I posted:

Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 2 outs. Charles his a hard one-hopper that F5 gloves moving to his right. A moment before F5 steps on 3B for the force on Abel, F6 obstructs Abel—60 feet from 3B.

As I remember, one poster said he would conveniently not see the OBS in that case. All the others agreed that Abel should be awarded 3B.

[Gee]

Your two plays are different. The second play shows obstruction while they were making a play on the obstructed runner. That's Type A.

Your first play they weren't. That's Type B.

[greymule]

Your two plays are different. The second play shows obstruction while they were making a play on the obstructed runner. That's Type A.

Your first play they weren't. That's Type B.

I agree completely. That's why I'm confused about Rich's comment that he might not protect R2 to 3B on the original play, even with F5 stepping on 3B (obviously playing on the obstructed runner). At least that's how I read his comment—that the OBS would not have affected what was going to be an easy out anyway.


[Edited by greymule on Jul 27th, 2004 at 04:04 PM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

Your two plays are different. The second play shows obstruction while they were making a play on the obstructed runner. That's Type A.

Your first play they weren't. That's Type B.

I agree completely. That's why I'm confused about Rich's comment that he might not protect R2 to 3B on the original play, even with F5 stepping on 3B (obviously playing on the obstructed runner). At least that's how I read his comment—that the OBS would not have affected what was going to be an easy out anyway.

Greymule IMO you are missing a very important point concerning OBR Type B Obstruction


OBR 7.06
(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

IMO, that's Rich's point. If the runner would have been out by a "mile" anyway, then the OBS is in effect "waved off" because of the terminology IF ANY . In other words in certain circumstances under OBR Type B OBS, we as Umpires do not have to award ANY base.

BTW, this was the subject matter of a much heated debate on another Forum. Here's the play that generated the debate.

R1: 1 out. B1 hits to F6 who starts the 6-4-3 DP. R1 is obstructed by F3 but would have been out by a mile anyway. What's the ruling. The WUA was E-mailed and Rick Roder's Response was: Record the DP inning over.

IMO, that's the problem with OBR Type "B" OBS in that we do not have to award the runner ANY base as the rule states. In a way this is contrary to "other" penalies, ie; interference. With the exception of B1 interfering with F2's throw on a steal attempt, we do not WAVE OFF interference irregardless what happened, we enforce "right away", yet on Type "B" OBS we do not have to penalize.

Side Note: In FED, we KNOW the obstructed runner is going to get at least one base beyond his/her position at the time of the infraction. therefore, in a FED game, R2 is awarded 3rd base even if he /she would have been out by a mile.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

R1: 1 out. B1 hits to F6 who starts the 6-4-3 DP. R1 is obstructed by F3 but would have been out by a mile anyway. What's the ruling. The WUA was E-mailed and Rick Roder's Response was: Record the DP inning over.

I'm not saying I disagree with this ruling; in fact, it makes sense. But it's contrary to the conventional wisdom of a couple of years ago on this forum.

I don't see the relevance here of 7.06(b), which deals with a runner not being played on. In the play sent to Rick Roder, R1 is being played upon.

I thought that 7.06(b) was written for plays like this: Abel hits a ball that rolls to the fence in right center. He rounds first, crashes into F3, falls, has to untangle himself from F3, then limps into 2B as F9 is picking up the ball. We call OBS with the collision, but keep the ball live. When the play ends, we impose whatever penalties, if any, such as giving Abel 3B or even home.

Or: Abel singles, takes a routine turn at 1B, and trips over F3's foot as F4 is taking the throw at 2B. We call OBS, but do not award 2B since Abel wasn't really trying for 2B anyway. (I know that in Fed Abel would get 2B.)

Am I correct, then, that Rick Roder would call an out on the play I posted earlier?:

Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 2 outs. Charles his a hard one-hopper that F5 gloves moving to his right. A moment before F5 steps on 3B for the force on Abel, F6 obstructs Abel—60 feet from 3B.

(Remember, this is type A OBS, with the runner being played on.)

In any case, I'll be glad to know how to call this, because variations (perhaps not so extreme) are not all that uncommon. Or it still could be that I'm missing something obvious.

[DG]

One significant difference in these two situations:

1) "Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 1 out. Infield in. Daniels hits a one-hopper to F5. At the same time, F6 obstructs Baker."

2) Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 2 outs. Charles his a hard one-hopper that F5 gloves moving to his right. A moment before F5 steps on 3B for the force on Abel, F6 obstructs Abel—60 feet from 3B.

In the first case there is not yet a play being made on anyone since the one hopper is hit to F5 and at the same time F6 obstructs Baker. Let it play out.

In the second case there is a play being made on Abel and F6 obstructs him, albeit 60 feet from the base. He might be out by a mile but the ball should be dead and Abel awarded 3b since he is being played on when obstructed.

[greymule]

Your analysis is pretty much what I thought, DG. However, I was unsure about play number 1. Because no play had been made yet, I didn't know whether we (1) wait to see where F5 goes with the ball before we call anything, or (2) assume that some sort of play on Baker has come into being. That's why I wondered how we rule if F5 starts to play on Baker and then throws to another base. Does starting to play on Baker constitute an actual play on Baker and thus kill the ball?

I guess that if F5 plays on Baker, we call dead ball, and if F5 plays somewhere else, we assign penalties (if any) when action has stopped. But if, let's say, F5 throws home for one out and then F2 throws to 1B for another out, if Baker makes it to 3B, we let the play stand.

But the play Rich describes is puzzling. Rick Roder says that, because R1 would be out by a mile, the fact that he was being played on doesn't figure in our ruling. Following that logic, we would call Abel out in play number 2.

[Atl Blue]

I think you will find that Rick Roder gives you a ruling based on what MLB umpires would call.

1. Obstruction is a VERY rare call in MLB.
2. MLB umpires often make the "expected" call (here we go again!).
3. In a pro game, a runner that is out by a mile is out. Let it go.
4. The above is proven with the pro interpretation of 7.06a with a runner obstructed before reaching first. The letter of the rule says if a BR is obstructed before reaching 1B, the ball is dead, and the BR is awarded at least one base. But in reality, this is not true. If the BR is obstructed before reaching 1B, keep the play alive and see what happens (in other words, treat it kind of like 7.06B, even though that is in direct contridiction with the rules). If the ball is caught for an out, forget the OBS, count the out. If it is not caught, NOW kill the play and award 1B. This is a case where we treat a book rule type A OBS as B, and then turn it back into A. Totally against the rules, but EXACTLY what is expected (if a batter hits a fly to RF and it is caught, then why in the world would you enforce OBS. The OBS meant nothing - that's what they expect, but that's not what it says!).

Never make an unexpected call on a routine play. The higher the level of ball, the more this is true.

[DG]

What Atl Blue is suggesting seems logical to me, and what I originally thought should be the call, for the second situation. In the second situation, if Abel is obstructed 60 feet from 3b, and just before F5 steps on 3b for the force then get an out. It's just not written that way in the rules.

[greymule]

Never make an unexpected call on a routine play.

I'll certainly go along with that. I actually have always ignored the OBS when it didn't affect the play. In fact, the play I posted years ago had happened to me (F6 obstructed R2, which caused R2 to be out at 3B by 60 feet instead of 50). I called R2 out, and nobody said anything except that R2 was unhappy about getting momentarily tangled with F6. But even R2 didn't expect to be awarded 3B. (This was a semipro game, not school.)

It was therefore only theoretically that I posed the play on this board. I knew that a literal reading of the rule called for OBS, but I was still surprised that almost everyone said to enforce it. ("Teach the defense a lesson"; "enforce all the rules, not just the ones you like"; etc.) Of course, they might have been thinking of school ball, where it seems that OBS and interference, as well as many other things that almost never come up in MLB, are given great emphasis.