Taking signs off the Rubber

[BayouUmp]

OK, I know I've seen this discussion before, but can't search so here goes....

OBR 8.01 Pitcher shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

Is this a balk?

I had it happen last night in Dixie Boys District trny and I chose to warn the pitcher. He had his foot behind the rubber and looked in for his signs, then moved his foot in front of the rubber and continued into set position.

I was BU and PU says 'OK you can warn him, but that's a balk.'

IMO, it depends on intent. There is no penalty associated with 8.01, so I defer to the note to Umpires on purpose of the balk rule. "Prevent pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner".

If I had believed he was trying to simulate his stretch and set in order to draw the runner off and then throw to 1B without having to step, I would have called a balk.

[DG]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
OK, I know I've seen this discussion before, but can't search so here goes....

OBR 8.01 Pitcher shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

Is this a balk?

I had it happen last night in Dixie Boys District trny and I chose to warn the pitcher. He had his foot behind the rubber and looked in for his signs, then moved his foot in front of the rubber and continued into set position.

I was BU and PU says 'OK you can warn him, but that's a balk.'

IMO, it depends on intent. There is no penalty associated with 8.01, so I defer to the note to Umpires on purpose of the balk rule. "Prevent pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner".

If I had believed he was trying to simulate his stretch and set in order to draw the runner off and then throw to 1B without having to step, I would have called a balk.

There is no penalty listed in OBR for not taking signs while in contact with rubber, unless he takes sign while off the rubber and then quickly steps on and quick pitches, which would be a balk with a runner on base. I think the purpose of this rule is to prevent the pitcher from deceiving the batter, whether any runners on base or not, by taking the sign off the rubber and then stepping on an delivering a pitch in less time than normal, catching the batter by surprise. Even if it is not a quick pitch, it can still catch the batter by surprise if it takes 3-4 seconds less than normal (ie the normal time to get a sign).

[Baseball_North]

No, it is not a balk, it is just not supposed to be done.

It's another one of those baseball myths.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
No, it is not a balk, it is just not supposed to be done.

It's another one of those baseball myths.

It's not a myth, it's a mis-application of a rule. In FED it is a balk (FED 6-1-1 PENALTY @end of ART3)

[David B]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

It's not a myth, it's a mis-application of a rule. In FED it is a balk (FED 6-1-1 PENALTY @end of ART3)

Sure its in the FED book, but how many times have you called a ball on the batter for an illegal pitch with no runners on.

If you have then that would be the first I've seen.

We choose to ignore this since there is nothing gained, making application as in OBR etc.,

I don't have my books with me, but would like to see how FED has interpreted this.

Thanks
David

[Baseball_North]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

It's not a myth, it's a mis-application of a rule. In FED it is a balk (FED 6-1-1 PENALTY @end of ART3)

Sorry, I am not familiar with FED rules... and never even heard of them before coming to this board.

Here.... High School rules = OBR

[bigwes68]

Not particularly familiar with Dixie Boys rules, but I wondered the same thing. Yes, it is a balk in FED, but I'm reasonably certain that Dixie Boys does not play by FED.

Had the exact same thing in a game the other night that I was watching; I pulled out the rulebook and sure enough, there is no penalty. Of course, this guy took it on himself to be the "Balk Nazi," calling at least 12 balks over 2 games. He called everything he could think of.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
Sorry, I am not familiar with FED rules... and never even heard of them before coming to this board.

Here.... High School rules = OBR

No problem, I kind of figured that. I just wanted to make everyone aware that there really is a stupid balk rule for this - it's just in another rule book.

[DG]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

No problem, I kind of figured that. I just wanted to make everyone aware that there really is a stupid balk rule for this - it's just in another rule book.

I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG

I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this.

The shoulder turn is no longer a balk in FED, with the recent changes. And I can't imagine anyone not making THAT change immediately.

[ozzy6900]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG

I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this.

Partially right, the interpertation includes taking the signs off the rubber. Our question always was "So when is the catcher really throwing out the signs?" To be honest, I enforce from when the pitcher makes intentional contact with the rubber (FED) and go from there. I still call it don't do that in FED.

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

The shoulder turn is no longer a balk in FED, with the recent changes. And I can't imagine anyone not making THAT change immediately.

I think the rule change is for 2005. Anyone playing FED now, is still under the current rule. The new rule will still prohibit turning the shoulders while in windup position, and after coming set.

[Edited by DG on Jul 9th, 2004 at 01:43 PM]

[David B]

Originally posted by DG

I think the rule change is for 2005. Anyone playing FED now, is still under the current rule.

I agree with you there Rich. Go ahead and make the change. Its summer ball now and none of the coaches know the rule anyway.

That's a no brainer.

Thanks
David

[Carl Childress]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozzy6900

Originally posted by DG

Partially right, the interpertation includes taking the signs off the rubber. Our question always was "So when is the catcher really throwing out the signs?" To be honest, I enforce from when the pitcher makes intentional contact with the rubber (FED) and go from there. I still call it don't do that in FED.

In OBR it is an infraction of 8.01 but it is not a balk, as someone also pointed out.

In FED it is but it ain't.

Before the rule made it into the OBR, to throw off (annoy) batters, the pitcher would take his signs from behind the rubber, step onto the rubber -- and take them again!

Sometimes, when that happened, the batter stepped out of the box. So the pitcher stepped off the rubber, and the dance started again.

The rule was designed to prevent such delays.

Nowadays, the pitcher takes his sign from the coach, steps onto the pitcher, and pitches. My advice: If the pitcher does not delay (take them again from the catcher, for example) forget about it.

But if he does delay, make him stop: Tell the catcher not to crouch until he's on the rubber.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Jul 9th, 2004 at 02:55 PM]

[orioles35]

The intent of the rule about taking signs off the rubber is to prevent a pitcher from doing so, quickly stepping on the rubber, coming set and throwing a pitch. Doing so does not allow any runners from being able to get their leads. It is NOT a balk. Rule book says to warn the pitcher, then if he continues to do so, eject him. I have yet to eject a pitcher for this, however I have called time and asked the pitcher to take his signals from the rubber and notified the coach of what was happening. 99/100 the pitcher just doesn't know what he's doing, but that one other time...