Player Substitutions (Line-Up Cards)

[Baseball_North]

I had the following situation come up in a game recently. OBR in effect.

Batter order is:

B1
B2
B3
B4 (DH)
B5
B6
B7
B8
B9 (2B)

The pitcher is being DH'd for in this game.

It is the break between the top and bottom of the 5th inning.

Visiting team (doing their warm-ups in the field) come to the PU and announce the following changes:

note- I am not sure if this was the order than they were dictated in from the visiting manager to the PU.

(1) P is moving to LF; LF is moving to P.

(2) DH is moving into a defensive position at 2B. 2B is leaving the game.

-------

PU says:
DH role is terminated. Original P (who wasn't hitting), goes into the game in the #9 spot in the batting order, in the spot where the 2B was hitting. From now on, the pitcher is hitting for himself.

-------

Home manager says:
Once the original P moves into the game defensively, the DH is terminated. Original P should now be batting in the #4 spot in the batting order. Everything else as is. The DH may no longer play in the game. Therefore, the 2B must stay in the game, or be replaced by a player on the bench that has not been in yet.

-------

My thoughts:
Both of the arguments make sense. I looked up OBR 6.10 that deals with the DH. Say just (1) takes place. The pitcher and the LF switch places. The DH is terminated, and now we have the original P batting 4th. DH is done.

Say just (2) takes place. The DH enters the game to play 2B, and the new pitcher will bat in the 9th spot vacated by the 2B.

BUT: the "new" pitcher is not a bench player, he is already in the line-up as the LF. What is the correct ruling on this? Does it matter what way they are said to the PU in? It seems to me that both of them make sense, but if one is done, then the other can't be right.

Thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
I had the following situation come up in a game recently. OBR in effect.

Batter order is:

B1
B2
B3
B4 (DH)
B5
B6
B7
B8
B9 (2B)

The pitcher is being DH'd for in this game.

It is the break between the top and bottom of the 5th inning.

Visiting team (doing their warm-ups in the field) come to the PU and announce the following changes:

note- I am not sure if this was the order than they were dictated in from the visiting manager to the PU.

(1) P is moving to LF; LF is moving to P.

(2) DH is moving into a defensive position at 2B. 2B is leaving the game.

-------

PU says:
DH role is terminated. Original P (who wasn't hitting), goes into the game in the #9 spot in the batting order, in the spot where the 2B was hitting. From now on, the pitcher is hitting for himself.

-------

Home manager says:
Once the original P moves into the game defensively, the DH is terminated. Original P should now be batting in the #4 spot in the batting order. Everything else as is. The DH may no longer play in the game. Therefore, the 2B must stay in the game, or be replaced by a player on the bench that has not been in yet.

-------

My thoughts:
Both of the arguments make sense. I looked up OBR 6.10 that deals with the DH. Say just (1) takes place. The pitcher and the LF switch places. The DH is terminated, and now we have the original P batting 4th. DH is done.

Say just (2) takes place. The DH enters the game to play 2B, and the new pitcher will bat in the 9th spot vacated by the 2B.

BUT: the "new" pitcher is not a bench player, he is already in the line-up as the LF. What is the correct ruling on this? Does it matter what way they are said to the PU in? It seems to me that both of them make sense, but if one is done, then the other can't be right.

Thoughts?

The P bats in the space vacated by whoever left the game. In (1) the Dh left the game so the P bats here. In (2) (and in 1 and 2 combined) F4 left the game so the P bats here.

[Baseball_North]

So the original pitcher, who has moved to LF, is now batting in the 9th spot in the order?

[DG]

A DH is batting for the Pitcher. Therefore, the Pitcher is on defense and the DH is on offense. The only way for the DH to enter on defense is for the pitcher to leave the game, not go to LF. If the pitcher goes to LF then the DH is terminated since the DH can only bat for the pitcher. The new pitcher can come in to play in the 2B spot, but he must leave and the pitcher will bat in that spot in the batting order. The old pitcher, now playing LF will bat in the spot where the DH was batting.

I added the words NEW and OLD to Bob's comments to make it clear to me. I think we are saying the same thing.

"The NEW P bats in the space vacated by whoever left the game. In (1) the Dh left the game so the OLD P bats here. In (2) (and in 1 and 2 combined) F4 left the game so the NEW P bats here."

[Baseball_North]

That doesn't seen to make sense though.

If the NEW pitcher was coming off the bench, then he would go into the spot vacated by the 2B. But he is already hitting in the 6th or 7th spot (I can't remember)... because he STARTED the game as the LF.

[DG]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
That doesn't seen to make sense though.

If the NEW pitcher was coming off the bench, then he would go into the spot vacated by the 2B. But he is already hitting in the 6th or 7th spot (I can't remember)... because he STARTED the game as the LF.

You said:

(1) P is moving to LF; LF is moving to P.

If the STARTING (ie OLD) P is moving to LF and LF is moving to be the NEW Pitcher then DH is out of the game because DH can only bat for the pitcher and all pitching substitutes for the pitcher. Since STARTING pitcher stayed in the game he is no longer the pitcher and DH can not bat for him. He has to bat for himself.


(2) DH is moving into a defensive position at 2B. 2B is leaving the game.

If the DH is moved to a defensive position at 2B then the starting P must leave the game, he can't go to LF, because the starting P and his DH can not both be on defense.

You can't have (1) and (2) moves at the same time. If you want the NEW pitcher to bat in the 2B spot in the batting order then the 2B must come out, the OLD P can go to LF, and the DH is no longer in the game.

Think of the DH/P as one position in the batting order. The DH is on offense, the P is on defense and they can never both be on defense.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG

You said:

(1) P is moving to LF; LF is moving to P.

If the STARTING (ie OLD) P is moving to LF and LF is moving to be the NEW Pitcher then DH is out of the game because DH can only bat for the pitcher and all pitching substitutes for the pitcher. Since STARTING pitcher stayed in the game he is no longer the pitcher and DH can not bat for him. He has to bat for himself.


(2) DH is moving into a defensive position at 2B. 2B is leaving the game.

If the DH is moved to a defensive position at 2B then the starting P must leave the game, he can't go to LF, because the starting P and his DH can not both be on defense.

You can't have (1) and (2) moves at the same time. If you want the NEW pitcher to bat in the 2B spot in the batting order then the 2B must come out, the OLD P can go to LF, and the DH is no longer in the game.

Think of the DH/P as one position in the batting order. The DH is on offense, the P is on defense and they can never both be on defense.

This is true in FED baseball, but not in OBR. The person DHed for can come into ANY spot in the batting order when part of a double switch. The DH role is terminated, but the P can go into the batting spot of the other person being substituted for. Both CAN be in the game.

--Rich

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

This is true in FED baseball, but not in OBR. The person DHed for can come into ANY spot in the batting order when part of a double switch. The DH role is terminated, but the P can go into the batting spot of the other person being substituted for. Both CAN be in the game.

--Rich

Good point, and that situation is covered under 6.10. I have just never seen it happen.

[Baseball_North]

OK, I think I understand.

But just to confirm, the consensus is that the PU was correct and the Manager was wrong?

It just seems weird to me how the old pitcher goes into the 2nd baseman's spot in the order, when he is no longer pitching in the game.

I thought he would have to leave.

Thanks for the responses.

[DG]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
OK, I think I understand.

But just to confirm, the consensus is that the PU was correct and the Manager was wrong?

It just seems weird to me how the old pitcher goes into the 2nd baseman's spot in the order, when he is no longer pitching in the game.

I thought he would have to leave.

Thanks for the responses.

PU was correct, under OBR, as Rich correctly pointed out. You don't see this very often (I have never).

Manager was correct if it had been a FED game, but you said it was an OBR game.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG

PU was correct, under OBR, as Rich correctly pointed out. You don't see this very often (I have never).

Manager was correct if it had been a FED game, but you said it was an OBR game.

Sorry I wasn't more specific -- in an OBR game, this move is completely legal.

--Rich

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
OK, I think I understand.

But just to confirm, the consensus is that the PU was correct and the Manager was wrong?

It just seems weird to me how the old pitcher goes into the 2nd baseman's spot in the order, when he is no longer pitching in the game.

I thought he would have to leave.

Thanks for the responses.

Just remember, players are "locked" into the Batting order. The pitcher was never batting to begin with, but the DH(which is locked in), was. Therefore the only place for the pitcher to hit is in the 9 hole.