Is ball "dead" after 3 outs... Situation

[BJ Moose]

Is ball "dead" after 3rd out of a half inning?
Situation:
R1... 2 outs. Batter hits GAPPER. R1 rounds 3rd, heads home, relay throw to catcher, a SLIDE, a SWIPE TAG attempt, cloud of dust... NO SIGNAL. (Assume: missed tag, missed plate). R1 gets up, moves towards dugout, F2 gets up with ball, sees ump and R1 and takes a step toward R1. Just now F2 notices BATTER-RUNNER take wide turn at third. Catcher throws to third and tag is made on B-R diving into third for THIRD OUT!

a)... Out call at 3rd comes 1 second AFTER R1 touches home. (This has gotta be easy, count this run now!)

b)... Out call at 3rd comes JUST PRIOR to R1 returning and touching home.
Do WE allow this retouch... or is the BALL dead? Do we allow a "4th out appeal?" Does catcher have to go get the ball, and make the appeal?

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
Is ball "dead" after 3rd out of a half inning?
Situation:
R1... 2 outs. Batter hits GAPPER. R1 rounds 3rd, heads home, relay throw to catcher, a SLIDE, a SWIPE TAG attempt, cloud of dust... NO SIGNAL. (Assume: missed tag, missed plate). R1 gets up, moves towards dugout, F2 gets up with ball, sees ump and R1 and takes a step toward R1. Just now F2 notices BATTER-RUNNER take wide turn at third. Catcher throws to third and tag is made on B-R diving into third for THIRD OUT!

b)... Out call at 3rd comes JUST PRIOR to R1 returning and touching home.
Do WE allow this retouch... or is the BALL dead? Do we allow a "4th out appeal?" Does catcher have to go get the ball, and make the appeal?

This situation is almost exactly the same as NAPBL 3.4, example 1. The number of outs really doesn't matter.

The ball is not dead--the ball is never dead just because a third out is recorded. I'd give you a reference, but there is none; this is an interpretation of omission--that is, nowhere in the OBR does it state that the ball is dead on the third out.

The question then becomes, what if the runner goes to retouch after the third out and the defense tries to tag him out? If the ball had stayed near the plate, we wouldn't have any problems, because the out just becomes a normal out (NAPBL 3.3). But if we allow the runner to retouch, as we always must, we then create a situation where the fielders are playing for a normal tag out with three outs already! (an aside: J/R clarifies that "fourth out plays" may be non-appeal plays (J/R 10-II, pg 59), but I don't think this is one of them.) Something is wrong because once the runner attempts to regain home plate, he no longer has "reached" home plate and must be tagged out under the normal tag-out rule (OBR 7.08c). But there's three outs, so this is all ridiculous. This leads us to say that the run does NOT score, without the need for an appeal. But does this then imply:

1) If this runner tries to regain and touch home, he is considered never to have scored. (NAPBL 3.3) He cannot score now because there are three outs.
2) If this runner does not try to regain and touch home, he DID reach home and scores unless an appeal is upheld (NAPBL 3.3).

This is ridiculous! We are penalizing a runner for trying to correct his mistake! I don't see any way out of this. Help!

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Jan 13th, 2001 at 12:42 PM]

[Bfair]

Read the rulebook, read NAPBL, read J/R, read JEA, read Brinkman-----then go on the field and do your job.
And may the force be with you, Luke.

[chris s]

I got this as a time play, 3rd out recorded before a runner scored.At this point, result of no run is gonna be the same, appeal for fourth out upheld, that is...

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by chris s
I got this as a time play, 3rd out recorded before a runner scored.

So, what if the runner passed home and went directly into his dugout? What do you have then?

P-Sz

[SamNVa]

I'm going to go out on a limb (saw in hand) and say that if the runner, who had missesd the plate, tries to return and touch home, but does nottouch home before the third out is recorded, then the run does not score, but if he goes straight to the dugout and the defense does not appeal the miss of the plate, then the run scores.

There are two basic reasons for this view on my part. The first is that the rules/accepted interpretations state that if the runner tries to return and touch the plate, he is in fact trying to gain the base and must be tagged by the defense just as though he was approaching the plate from 3rd. If he touches the plate prior to the 3rd out the run scores, if he doesn't make it back to the plate prior to the third out, the run doesn't count. The rules also state that if he misses the base and doesn't try to return, then he can be called out on appeal, and a advantageous 4th out appeal can nullify the run if the defense is clever.

The second reason that I would rule this way is far more pragmatic. If the runner tries to return and touch the plate, he has, by his actions, announced for everyone to see that he missed the plate in the first place so his run was not legally scored prior to the third out being recorded, therefore I feel justified in not scoring the run. If he doesn't try to return, but instead heads for the dugout, then his actions imply that he believes the run was scored, so unless the defense is astute enough to appeal the missed base, I'm going to give him credit for the run.

Now finally as to when the ball becomes dead after the 3rd out (as clearly it must or we wouldn't have to put it back into play to begin the next half inning) I would contend that the ball becomes dead after the defensive team has left the field after the 3rd out since that is the point at which an appeal can no longer be made. Up until that point, the ball must remain alive to allow any possible appeals.

[PeteBooth]

So, what if the runner passed home and went directly into his dugout? What do you have then?

Patrick if a runner does not come back and try and re-touch in a reasonable amount of time - We have an out as he is deemed to have abandoned the basepath. OBR 7.08j/k.

In FED this is spelled out. In FED end of playing action runner fails to touch or retouch we declare runner out.

Pete Booth

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by SamNVa
I'm going to go out on a limb (saw in hand) and say that if the runner, who had missesd the plate, tries to return and touch home, but does nottouch home before the third out is recorded, then the run does not score, but if he goes straight to the dugout and the defense does not appeal the miss of the plate, then the run scores.

There are two basic reasons for this view on my part. The first is that the rules/accepted interpretations state that if the runner tries to return and touch the plate, he is in fact trying to gain the base and must be tagged by the defense just as though he was approaching the plate from 3rd. If he touches the plate prior to the 3rd out the run scores, if he doesn't make it back to the plate prior to the third out, the run doesn't count. The rules also state that if he misses the base and doesn't try to return, then he can be called out on appeal, and a advantageous 4th out appeal can nullify the run if the defense is clever.

The second reason that I would rule this way is far more pragmatic. If the runner tries to return and touch the plate, he has, by his actions, announced for everyone to see that he missed the plate in the first place so his run was not legally scored prior to the third out being recorded, therefore I feel justified in not scoring the run. If he doesn't try to return, but instead heads for the dugout, then his actions imply that he believes the run was scored, so unless the defense is astute enough to appeal the missed base, I'm going to give him credit for the run.

I agree! That is the ruling that is apparent from everything we know. But here's the problem: we are PENALIZING the runner who tries to correct his mistake, and he has no chance of actually correcting the mistake! In fact, by trying to correct his error, he completely and with no chance of reprieve gives up the run. This happens at no other base and in no other situation, and it bugs me!

And Peter, I can appreciate your humor, but I hope you don't mislead anyone else on the board. Let it be known that the runner can NOT be called out for abandonment after he has passed home--unless he never touches the plate, returns toward third, and THEN abandons.

P-Sz

[BJ Moose]

Reconsider this. The runner who as missed home and enters dugout CANNOT be called out for abandonment. He missed home, but he "reached" it. He has no bases to run or abandon. He can only get out on an appeal.

Originally posted by PeteBooth

So, what if the runner passed home and went directly into his dugout? What do you have then?

Patrick if a runner does not come back and try and re-touch in a reasonable amount of time - We have an out as he is deemed to have abandoned the basepath. OBR 7.08j/k.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
Reconsider this. The runner who as missed home and enters dugout CANNOT be called out for abandonment. He missed home, but he "reached" it. He has no bases to run or abandon. He can only get out on an appeal.

You should check out the last four characters of Peter's message, quoted above.

P-Sz

[DJWickham]

Moose's initial question concerned when is the ball dead?

We know the ball must be alive for the defense to appeal to get the advantageous fourth out. Even if the defense wrongly appeals, the ball is live until the ruling on the appeal. So, after the third out, the ball is at least in limbo pending appeal (sort of like the election).

In our situation, it was certainly possible that the defense could attempt to appeal the failure to retouch home. The appeal would be denied because the runner returned to the plate and wasn't tagged.

So, the umpire seems to have two choices in recognizing time. First, treat the the ball as dead on the third out. If the defense actually makes an appeal, then the umpire will then recognize live ball to rule on the appeal. Under that choice, Moose's original analysis would hold true: the runner retouched the plate during dead ball-no run.

The second notion, is to treat the ball as live until the defense has a reasonable opportunity to make an appeal (even wrongly), and then the umpire will recognize time if the defense has not made an appeal. Under that notion, the runner retouched the plate during live ball, but after the third out was recorded.

Same result, but very different reasoning.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by DJWickham
[B]Moose's initial question concerned when is the ball dead?

We know the ball must be alive for the defense to appeal to get the advantageous fourth out. Even if the defense wrongly appeals, the ball is live until the ruling on the appeal. So, after the third out, the ball is at least in limbo pending appeal (sort of like the election).

In our situation, it was certainly possible that the defense could attempt to appeal the failure to retouch home. The appeal would be denied because the runner returned to the plate and wasn't tagged.

So, the umpire seems to have two choices in recognizing time. First, treat the the ball as dead on the third out. If the defense actually makes an appeal, then the umpire will then recognize live ball to rule on the appeal. Under that choice, Moose's original analysis would hold true: the runner retouched the plate during dead ball-no run.

The second notion, is to treat the ball as live until the defense has a reasonable opportunity to make an appeal (even wrongly), and then the umpire will recognize time if the defense has not made an appeal. Under that notion, the runner retouched the plate during live ball, but after the third out was recorded.

Same result, but very different reasoning.
[B]

We've established that the ball is not immediately dead on the third out. This is fairly well-accepted; the defense always has a chance to get a "fourth out" play--by appeal, tag, or force--until all infielders leave the field. (OBR 7.10, J/R 10-II, pg 58-59)

As for your second notion, the runners ALWAYS have a chance to touch the plate to correct their mistakes--that is, to prevent the defense from getting an out on appeal. Three outs SHOULDN'T matter. In this case, though, they do: The runner, by returning to the plate, is admitting that he never touched and is like the runner who never reached home--he hasn't scored yet. Since there are three outs, he can't score. BUT, this same runner, who passes the plate and enters the dugout, scores until and unless a "fourth-out" appeal takes place. Do you see how we penalize a runner who is trying to correct his mistake, though in reality, he is not able to correct it?

P-Sz

[BJ Moose]

What are you talking about? You mean the rule quoted by Pete... OK....it requires an APPEAL. So my post was correct.

Please don't post in Secret Code...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski

You should check out the last four characters of Peter's message, quoted above.

P-Sz

[DJWickham]

Patrick:
I wouldn't call it is a "penalty" to require that the runner who misses home either retouch the plate before he is tagged or before the third out, but I understand your point. There is 1 way to score if you snake into the dugout (defense does not appeal), and 2 ways not to score if you try to retouch (you get tagged or 3rd out is made).

Perhaps FED does have the best answer. Retouch (successfully) or you are out.

[DDonnelly19]

Advantageous 4th outs can only come in the form of an appeal, specifically during relaxed action. By inference the ball is live, until the infielders have left the field, after the third out, but only relaxed action can occur. Any attempted advancement or retreat of a runner is ignored. The defense only need to touch home plate to complete the appeal, even if the runner is attempting to touch. This interpretation is an extention of the PBUC's ruling on a runner leaving the dugout to touch home.

EXAMPLE -- R3 misses the plate before the third out, and then attempts to retouch the plate after the 3rd out is made at another base. RULING -- R3's actions after the 3rd out are ignored, and the defense still may appeal R3's missing the plate by only a tag of the base. R3's run is contingent on a successful appeal.

Granted this isn't an official ruling, but I think this interpretation will allow the offense not to "screw" itself into trying to correct a mistake, but will still allow the defense to appeal.