Another ejection situation that I want some input on, guys.

Bottom of the 6th inning. R1, R2, zero outs. Batter is at the plate with a 2-1 count. Squares around to bunt, noticed the fastball is coming in at him, tries to duck out of the way and gets plunked in the shoulder.

PU does not many any call. No point to first base. No "Yes he did! That's a strike!". Just silence. Opposing manager comes out to the PU and barks "Hey! That should be a strike", making reference to the fact that he thought the batter went around.

At that point, PU reluctantly and quietly goes, "Ya, that's a strike". Batter is pissed off and 3B coach comes in to argue. They asked him why he didn't make the call originally and why he waited for the "coach to make the call for him." They then asked him to at least ask his partner for help. He refused, and the batter continued to argue. Finally, PU ejects the batter.

Next batter comes up to the plate, strikes out. Under his breath, he muttered something as simple as "come on...". PU ejected him too, and looked really defensive in doing so. The defense was wondering themselves why he was thrown out, as they didn't hear him say anything and he had his back to the umpire.

In sum.....

#1) What should the call have been on the 1st batter in the situation? Does the position of the bat make the difference, or does it depend if he offered at it or not? Should he have made the call earlier? Should he have asked for help at least?

#2) Was he too defensive... and thus wrongfully ejected the second player?

Only have your slant of events here, not sating you are embellishing, but we don't have both sides of the issue. This will limit my answers at least

#1, The call should have been whatever the umpire saw, regardless of how long he took to make it. The position of the bat really makes no difference unless the position appears to be an offer. The position of the ball was probably the reason PU called a strike. He must have judged it to have been in the zone, or a swing by the batter. Should he have asked for help? If he judged pitch a strike, no. On a check swing, maybe but not mandatory.

#2 If you aren't sure why batter #2 was ejected, neither am I. Can make no comment here.

1) The umpire should take all the time he needs to make the call, but should not take so long that the coach comes out of the dugout before he has made a call. That's a LONG time. If a fastball is running in on him and he trys to duck and get's hit, my inclination would be to send him to 1B. Either way, 1 or 2 seconds max, there should be a call, one way or the other.
2) If the batter said "come on" and that's all he said, I would ignore that.

Taking what you said and envisioning it, I would have given the batter first base. I do not consider holding the bat over the plate a strike unless there is a motion toward the ball or I determine he really thought that's where the ball was going to be. Next, he had to have abandoned his attempt to swing by ducking. Forget whether the bat went past the plate, he's got to avoid, and if he ain't swinging, it doesn't matter where the bat goes in his effort to move. So to first my batter would go (and to first he went when I had a very similar situation a couple of months ago).

As for the second ejection: sounds rather shaky to me, but I suspect that either your partner was feeling a bit uppity, or you're missing a part of the story between him and and player.

-Craig

I do not consider holding the bat over the plate a strike unless there is a motion toward the ball

At least in FED, holding the bat over the plate is a strike as outlined in 2-8-1. This is different from softball in that the mere holding of the bat over the plate is not considered a strike.

Baseball_north,

This is your second thread questioning the officials calls over ejections in which it seems YOUR players were involved and possibly guilty. At some point you have to realalize that bad baseball , usually gets bad officiating. Something you just have'nt come around to accept.

I used to tell my players to SHUT their mouths and accept what happens out there, DEAL WITH IT. I will deal with the officials. At some point, I realized that the official doing my game did'nt belong there however he was the best one we had for that game. Arguing with him only pissed him off, and I very very seldom won.

I know your going to get all offended by this and say that you are just trying to find out information to learn how these things should be properly handled the next time. I have already coverd that. The truth of the matter is you want us to make you feel good by saying the officials were wrong and you were right.

Hey Sh**T Happens, Deal with it.

Pitches coming straight at the batter, are also coming straight at the umpire. (if we are in the slot) The PU has a high probability of getting hit and, as a result, may freeze on his call. This still happens to me on occasion and I have good catchers. I instinctively tense up on a inside pitch when the batter bails out.

The PU should have made no call (ball) and gone to his partner when the coach came out about the batter getting first base. Let the BU be the final judge of whether the batter offered. This is one of those occasions where the plate umpire probably does not have the best view of what happened. The base umpire, at the very least, has a relaxed and detached view of what happened. When we are about to get hurt, our perception and judgment are distorted.

As for the second situation, I would have to be there. However, I am known for quick ejections on players that give me any lip.

Peter

2-8-1 simply defines a bunt as "holds the bat in the path of the ball". IMO, if you hold the bat in the path of the ball, the two will meet, and we will not have a question of whether he attempted or not. I think we still have to judge whether he attempted, even in FED.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I realize that my view is slanted, as I was the first batter that was ejected. I realize that I am telling my side of the story, but I am also an umpire and I know the perspective from behind the catcher too.

Our league is age 19-21, and it gets pretty heated. We seldom have problems such as these, but it is not just our team. Opposing players have had confrontations as well. We actually have a lot of solid umpires up here, but in my opinion, this guy is not fit to do these games. In previous games, he messed up a few calls, and he never seems to sure of himself.

I know that these situations happen in baseball. In this situation, I felt that it was not handled properly by the PU. That is why I posted it on here. I wanted to get some other opinions on the situation.

And I realize that umpires are not going to be perfect (from being one myself for 6 years), but just as I expect a player to be pissed at me for screwing up, I do not expect myself or my teammates to let something like this slide without any argument. This was a big game too, we were playing the team directly ahead of us in the standings.

Thanks for the input guys.

Oh, and another thing that isn't totally relevant.....

I might not have had such a conversation with the umpire if a high 70s fastball drilled me in the bicep. For anyone that has been hit by a pitch and not given 1st base, no matter the situation, is enough to piss you off.

Not always
 

I don't know where you play, but around here in summer league the guys want to HIT.

We have lots of our college players and wantabes that will try their best to stay in the box even if they are hit (of course this would be a marginal hit)

Whether the umpire is qualified or not, he still is the umpire. Part of being a good player is knowing how to respond to different umpires.

You have to know which ones you can talk to and which ones you can't.

Thanks
David

What difference does that make?
 

Then make an attempt to get out of the way. Then you will not have to worry about it.

But I have seen coaches go nuts over a curve ball hitting their batter and they moved into the pitch. So who cares what their reaction is.

Peace

Re: Not always
 

David,

I agree with you. Almost every umpire in the association I know by name, as I have worked games with 90% of the umpires that umpire my games when I am playing. I did not know this guy, and only recognized him from a previous game where he messed up some easy calls. I know that most other umpires would have made a quicker call on this play. And I would not have said some of the things I said to get tossed if it were an umpire I know personally.

Hopefully I don't have any upcoming assignments with this umpire. That would be pure awkwardness.

Re: What difference does that make?
 

I know what you are saying, but I did try to get out of the way. That's why I hit the deck. The ball would have hit me square in the stomach, put I just reacted and moved in a way where it hit my arm.

I say this all the time.
 

None of us were there. We did not see the play. We can only give some feedback based on our own experiences. Maybe the umpire did blow the call. But maybe he was correct too. I was not there and I did not see the play. But I do see more and more batters at all levels trying to get hit by pitches.

Peace

Read the last sentence of 7.2.1B and you'll see that your statement is in error.

Great. An umpire shows his behind when he's playing. Why don't you just tell everybody it's perfectly OK for players and coaches to be unsportsmanlike, just because they THINK the umpire is wrong.

You aren't an umpire. You are a rat who umpires once in a while. Big difference.

It takes a pretty big man to insult someone on an internet message board.

I didn't direct anything to you... I don't understand why you have to fire insults back?

You seem to have the attitude of an umpire that has never played the game before.... and does not know what it is like to be in the players' shoes.

BN;

I believe that I have about the worst "attitude" here. My abrasiveness is continually criticized by the wimps and wannabes who inhabit the boards.

Rich's, Tee's, Carl's, WCB's and my attitudes (as well as numerous other umpires of accomplishment) are formulated because we know what were doing and have little patience with greenhorns and wannabes who think that they know what they are doing. You should listen more and write less. We know what were doing. An BS umpire like yourself, in an unruly bush league, has nothing on us.

BTW, I can't speak for Rich, but I played NCAA baseball. It was only D-III but it was real baseball. I have been hit by the pitch, engaged in cheating (at my coach's direction), and know exactly how to behave like a "rat." It is exactly why I have so little tolerance for BS.

Peter

Lighten up...we're on the same team
 

Whoa...There are a lot of us that compete in competitive sports. As a player, I have a better appreciation of what it takes to do his job. I can and do get infuraited by guys who just go through the motions, because it is an adult league/rec league or not up to his standards. I am paying his fee and expect a lot more than my teammates that may not know any better. BUT, I never take action on the field, court or ice. I don't tell my teammates that he blew a rule or a coverage, so that they can tear into him. self control is the name of the game. Secondly, you have mentioned that it is a small community of officials up there, keep that in mind. You may not want to work with him in the future, but he certainly will remember you and it will get around. We are bound by an unwritten code of ethics. Whether I am playing in a contest or watching in the stands, I scrutinize the officiating. But I do not contribute to the abuse we hate so much.

You may be correct about a call, ruling or mechanics, but you hate being shown up on the field, right? Buy him a beer (they do have an abundance of that up there) and shoot the sh*t. The topic will come up and you'll be better served on teh field as a player and umpire.

I agree with everyone's comments except for Rich's. I understand that you guys call a higher level of ball, but maybe your ignorance about Canada makes you think baseball is nothing here. I don't intend that to be an insult. It is taken very seriously, and it is competitive. It's not a bush league where people do not know what they are doing. I played with a guy who got drafted by the Marlins a few years ago. My city has about 60 umpires, so it's not like we only have 5 or so to go around.

I respect your opinions, and I realize that you guys most likely have more experience and such than me. But it seems to me that some of you think that you are above the game and that any umpire that isn't at your level is automatically not a good official.

I do not mean to offend anyone, and if I did then I apologize ahead of time, but those are just my two cents on the subject.

But you know what it's like to be in an umpire's shoes and that means you know the right way and the wrong way to behave on a field.

People know you umpire, especially if you are from a small town. Those that see you act this way either (1) think it is the right way to behave because, well, you're an umpire, or (2) are umpires and see you act this way and wonder if you have their backs when they need you.

There is a high school coach around here that umpires. I've worked his team twice and restricted him to the dugout twice. I'd probably work with him if assigned, but I'd certainly remember his behavior and realize I might be alone out there when the chips are down.

I realize that, and can appreciate what you are saying.

We are not in a small town where everyone knows I umpire... the only people that know are my family, friends, teammates, fellow umpires, and a few coaches throughout the league. But I understand what you are saying.

I understand that I have created a double-standard for myself. If a player said to me what I said to the umpire, I would have ejected him also. No question. I do have some regret on what I said, but stubbornly think the call was wrong.

But the thing for me is..... I try to separate my playing from my umpiring. I am not a player/umpire when I have my baseball uniform on. I am a player and a player only. It would be unfair to my teammates to do otherwise. When I umpire, I am not a player. I call the game using the mechanics and rules that I have learned over the years.

It is unfair to your teammates to get yourself tossed no matter how bad the call was. As an umpire you should understand that you buy NOTHING with the umpires by showing your worse half. All you do is either get ejected or annoy them or both. Likely both.

Once you don the blue you can no longer fully separate the roles you fill at a ball game. So many people know you as a blue and you must conduct yourself as you ideally expect others to conduct themselves.

I coach a rec team (12-13), play AA (empahsis on the first A) slo-pitch softball, umpire AA softball and umpire youth baseball.

As the way it happens I sometimes end up calling games in the same division I coach in. There is no way on earth I can fully separate my duties as a coach and the fact that I am also an umpire. As a coach I MUST act as I expect coaches to act when I am the blue. To do anything else is hypocritical. Granted I get a lot more emotional as a coach but I do not ever yell or direct side remarks at an umpire and I keep it short and simple.

As an aside to a previous posting I am watching a softball tournament across the screet from my office and on the near field the blue has his water bottle hanging off the baskstop right behind the plate and the only batting helmet is being worn by the pitcher (AA slo-pitch)

I'm not going to disagree with you on that point, Rich. Being ejected only makes things worse for your team. I guess my bottom line is that just because I am an umpire, doesn't mean I am going to act A LOT differently as a player. Things happen in the heat of the moment. People get angry. That's the way sports go. They are emotional, competitive, and have an agressive nature sometimes.

I am going to be brutally blunt for a moment, but I say this as advice and not condescending. Grow up. You are an adult, act like it. Treat others as you want to be treated. If you can't control your emotions, don't play the game. Set the example for others. That is leadership.

Funny thing about being an umpire, people all across the area that I live know that I am an umpire. Even people I don't know, know that I am an official, and they expect me to be even keeled when I am on the baseball field and off.

Very nice. You've just insulted about 80% of all baseball players and umpires out there. As you said, you have about the worst attitude on this board, and I agree with you whole-heartedly. You are a lame punk who has no true respect for this game or else you'd understand one of the basic tenets of officiating: EVERY game is important because it's the most important game to the players that day.

And the next time you're in McDonald's and toilet seat is nasty, remember that the janitor has nothing on you because he works in an unruly bush-restaurant: either you clean the seat yourself or you hold it in and get cramps.

-Craig

Naw, more like 90%. In doing that, he did have to use up about 40% of his complete writing repetoire though- the parts where he says "I'm a Big Dog and anybody that disagrees with a Big Dog is an idiot, a liar and screws small farm animals".

Now, go to the top of the page and take a look in the Moderator's Section. Re-read the sentence that says personal attacks will not be tolerated. It doesn't really say it, but it actually means that personal attacks on Big Dogs and Contributing Writers will not be tolerated.

Now hurry out, y'all, and buy a paid subscription so you can get the other 60% of his knowledge. :D

<i>"Umpires of accomplishment?"</i>. Gotta love it.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 10th, 2004 at 02:47 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jumpmaster

Quote:

[i]Funny thing about being an umpire, people all across the area that I live know that I am an umpire. Even people I don't know, know that I am an official, and they expect me to be even keeled when I am on the baseball field and off.

jump,
This is such an important point and very well stated. Wish that officials in all sports could read your post.
barb

Baseball_North,
I used to feel that way with all my sports.
Around 40 the years changed me, and I began to enjoy the competition from the standpoint of skill and not score; yet, I have always thought winning is a ton better than participating. Sure, play to win, but be a winner in any case.
It's a metamorphsis.
We learn. We change.
mick

I never said anything about the game not being important. As a matter of fact, I teach umpires to treat every game as a learning experience and give it 100%. A crappy game with a score of 11-2 is a great time to sharpen your own game because usually no one yells at you. Usually!

I have been to numerous umpires camps and conferences. At every one, there is some jerk student who wants to argue with the Major League umpire/NCAA big dog that we have brought in to train us.

This board is exactly the same. There are a few people who really know what they are doing and bunch a Little League and Babe Ruth style umpires who want to argue with them. At the camps, the Major League bigs dogs politely engage the jerk students. Likewise, here on the forum most of the big dogs politely engage the apprentices. A few, like me, tell them to shut up and listen.

Notice that nothing in what I said should reflect negatively on what 90% of coaches and players in Little League are trying to accomplish. They are trying to have fun and learn something. They are being good sports and practice sportsmanship. If it weren't for the other 10% of morons and wannabes, they would not even need trained umpires.

To do this job right requires at least 30 hours of classroom training, 30 more hours of on-field training, and 10 hours per year of on-field refresher and mechanics checkups. That's the minimum to stay proficient. If you want to get better, a whole lot more is required.

The wannabes want to attend a two hour clinic and come to the forum and argue with me. They think that this will make them better and that they are now good umpires.

They suck, and they and their ilk are the only ones that don't know it. Real umpires know that they suck, and the coaches and players that suffer through their games know they suck. Most real umpires politely string them along in their delusion. That is the one thing that makes me different. In that regard, I am like the coaches and players who tell them that they suck.

Yesterday, I did a 16 year old Babe Ruth tournament with a three man crew. The plate umpire sucked. Between innings, I talked to the other base umpire about what I was going to say to the plate umpire after the game.

"Fortunately" for the plate umpire, he suffered from heat exhaustion and had to be carted away in an ambulance. He did not get to hear my critique which would have ruined his day more than the hospital visit. My other partner knew what I was going to say and opined that perhaps a hospital visit was better than my a$$ chewing.

Peter

Just out of curiousity, what was it about the home plate umpire that sucked so bad that you were going to chew his a$$ after the game?

I would really like to know so that I may avoid such things in the future.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness

Quote:

Yesterday, I did a 16 year old Babe Ruth tournament with a three man crew. The plate umpire sucked. Between innings, I talked to the other base umpire about what I was going to say to the plate umpire after the game. "Fortunately" for the plate umpire, he suffered from heat exhaustion and had to be carted away in an ambulance. He did not get to hear my critique which would have ruined his day more than the hospital visit. My other partner knew what I was going to say and opined that perhaps a hospital visit was better than my a$$ chewing. Peter

This board is exactly the same. There are a few people who really know what they are doing and bunch a Little League and Babe Ruth style umpires who want to argue with them. At the camps, the Major League bigs dogs politely engage the jerk students. Likewise, here on the forum most of the big dogs politely engage the apprentices. A few, like me, tell them to shut up and listen.

The wannabes want to attend a two hour clinic and come to the forum and argue with me. They think that this will make them better and that they are now good umpires.

They suck, and they and their ilk are the only ones that don't know it. Real umpires know that they suck, and the coaches and players that suffer through their games know they suck. Most real umpires politely string them along in their delusion. That is the one thing that makes me different. In that regard, I am like the coaches and players who tell them that they suck.

[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with that completely!!!!

There's just no damn way that the "greenhorns and wannabes" and "bullsh*t umpires from the unruly bush leagues" should ever have the temerity to question any of the "officials of accomplishment" on this forum. That's just not right! They should know their place, damnit! They're not "Big Dogs, are they? Whatinthehell do they think this is anyway? A public forum or something? They should just "suck" quietly!

It is OK for you greenhorns, wannabes and bullsh*t umpires to pay to read the Master's articles though. Just make sure that you don't try to comment on them afterwards!!!!

Sigh! It's just not easy to be a Big Dog anymore!

Lah me!

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

I agree with that completely!!!!

There's just no damn way that the "greenhorns and wannabes" and "bullsh*t umpires from the unruly bush leagues" should ever have the temerity to question any of the "officials of accomplishment" on this forum. That's just not right! They should know their place, damnit! They're not "Big Dogs, are they? Whatinthehell do they think this is anyway? A public forum or something? They should just "suck" quietly!

It is OK for you greenhorns, wannabes and bullsh*t umpires to pay to read the Master's articles though. Just make sure that you don't try to comment on them afterwards!!!!

Sigh! It's just not easy to be a Big Dog anymore!

Lah me!

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah but no matter how badly the new guy sucked, or how great the big dog feels about himself after working his big time exciting "real" game, one fact still remains:

There are 6 billion people in China who do not give a sh1t.

:shrug:

Yeah but no matter how badly the new guy sucked, or how great the big dog feels about himself after working his big time exciting "real" game, one fact still remains:

There are 6 billion people in China who do not give a sh1t.

[/B][/QUOTE]Aaaaaargh!!

Heresy!!!!!!!

Forgive him, O Umpire of Accomplishment. He knows not what he says.

I banish you to the Basketball Forum, Dan_ref. Begone! Go and be with your ilk! Shoo! Shoo!

Lah me!

The mantle of greatness.......

Sooo...would the opposite of the mantle of greatness be the buckner of infamy?

Hehehehe
 

Ya, what are you "Basketball Guys" doing here anyway?

Pretty soon there will be a deRock mention and Game Presence then things will go south . . .

I wish I could figger out how to rewrite HHH's post so that the good (and correct parts) could fall into place for some of our posters to understand.

Tee

Re: Hehehehe
 

I came here to worship at the feet of the Master.

Dan just came over to steal toilet paper again.

HHH, you can use this if you like, might help with those pesky guys :)

http://www.trumpio.com/funny/pope_noob.jpg

"Big Dogs."
 

There are a lot of people that are not what they say they are. There are a many of umpires in my area that work D1 and Minor League Baseball. Most are not even on a D1 staff or many were never hired by the Major League Baseball Program. So when guys try to tell you that they work D1, it means that they might know the assignor that might hire them at one or two games at Northern Illinois University for example, but never work any other school in NIU's Conference. I know guys that worked only D1 games at my Alma Mater's school, but worked no where else. It is not like the other sports where you will not get a change unless they hire you on their staff in some capacity. I know in football for example, you cannot just work a Big Ten game because unless you are hired by the assignor of the conference. And at best you might only work one or two games a year if you are not considered a full staff member. They do have associate staff members that fill in or work the lower tier games.

So when guys try to push their abilities on everyone and tell you they work a level, watch out. I am sure there are individuals that are here that are very legitimate in what they say and do. But I know there are people that are trying to convince the rest of us that they accomplished something, but leaving out very specific details. There are a lot of guys that have worked games at DeKalb, IL and did not work any other teams in that conference. There are many guys that have worked a Schaumburg Flyers game, but have not worked any other team in the division games or places that the Flyers play. I just had this very conversation with a D1 Umpire that works on a staff and works regular conference series. Even before he was hired, he did the same thing I mentioned above.

So when a "so-called" Big Dog comes here or anywhere trying to tell us how much they know and what they have done, you have to watch out. I will tell you that I have done some D3 and JUCO Baseball in my time. But I might do less than 10 games a year and mostly do it when I have an opening after I get my HS schedule. I am not on a staff, never have tried to be. I am not better than the other umpires that work the games with me; I just work when I can. It really is not a big deal in my opinion. But I guess people have to pump themselves up to put down other people.

Peace

It's funny, you chastised me for name calling when I said that your name was appropriate to you officiating philosophy. Yet, I've read nothing but venom from you lately. You may dress it up in flowery parlance, but mastering our language does not mask the sentiment.

You seem to have difficulty with anyone who is a more accomplished official than you. "Big Dogs"...does that refer to anyone at a level above you?

If I'm not mistaken, when I back up my opinions with on field examples or talk about my training, you asked why I feel compelled to post my resumé at every turn. Sorry, but when I support a claim with real world experience, I don't go back to my LL days. HHH, Carl, et al have distinguished resumés. Why chide them for that? If you differ with their opinion, be logical and eloquent enough to challenge them. But don't come here and ask for me to abstain from negative threads and name calling when you are living in a glass house.

Re: Re: Hehehehe
 

http://web.umr.edu/~ccf/pictures/psh2002/12.jpg

Since you asked
 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Kaliix;

He completely missed two catcher's interference calls. From down at third in position D, I could tell that he missed both of them. The second was so gross that the catcher's mitt was torn off and thrown 6 feet. As everyone yelled at him, I wandered in near the mound as if to say

"Buddy, you better get some help cause I have it."

He finally motioned us in and my partner and I gave him some much needed help. He changed the call to catcher's interference and the other coach did not say a word.

He called several worm burners strikes.

On a nut cutter fail/foul call, he weakly yelled foul and few heard it. I had called the BR out at second before everyone realized that he had called foul and we had to send the BR back to bat. No one was happy. One run and an out were taken off of the board. (After the game, I was told that the videotape showed the ball was fair.)

He allowed the pitcher to argue with him. It should have been an immediate ejection. (Maybe not, because the PU had just balled a cock shot.)

A batter threw a small temper tantrum at home plate after a swinging strike out. This should have been an immediate ejection. These two incidents were a direct result of his not controlling the game.

He allowed some minor crap to come out of the dugouts but my partner and I shut it down after he failed to deal with it.

On the plus side; he LOOKS like a good umpire when calling balls and strikes. He has the right look, which so many lack.

Also, he stopped an illegal substitution which many umpires would have missed. The coach tried an illegal reentry, and the official scorekeeper in the press box let it happen.

Peter



[Edited by His High Holiness on Jul 12th, 2004 at 01:35 PM]

Maybe you can explain to me exactly how I'm using venom when I very accurately quote the names and phrases used by your "Officials of Accomplishment"? For instance, "Big Dog" is Peter's term, not mine.

Or maybe are you talking to Peter, and his "ilk", about the name calling? I'm just repeating what I read.

I do not think I have even mentioned your name?
 

I must have stuck a cord with you. I do not recall that I have mentioned anyone specifically. ;)

I can only speak for me; I have no problem with anyone accomplishing anything. There is always someone out there better than you or more accomplished than you are. If I have learned anything from all my sports that is one thing I have noticed. Even at the major levels, there are officials that have reached higher levels than many working on regular staffs. Again Windy, you do not know me really at all. So please be very careful what you think you know about me and what you want to perceive. But if you call yourself a "Big Dog,” I have to ask you why? What makes you better than everyone else out there? Were you not at some point in your career at the bottom? Were you never on the field and did not know things? If you consider yourself better than everyone else around you, I think that says something about what lack of confidence you have in your own ability.

There is a way to do it and there is a way not to do it. I have talked about many games and levels without trying to belittle people for it (I have learned this the hard way myself). I was once accused of giving my schedule or talking about my levels. But I always try to make it clear that I have been fortunate and got help from others in the process. Everything I have accomplished in officiating was because someone pulled me up and gave me a chance. Now once I was there I had to perform. That is the reason I have continually gotten opportunity after opportunity, but to suggest I am jealous is silly. I have not even worked 10 years. But I have been working varsity and college ball most of my umpiring an officiating career. I have nothing but more to accomplish, but I know my place. So not sure what I would be concerned with. I cannot expect to go to a Super Sectional without first being Certified and having some playoff experience.


Well, I have never gotten upset with Carl about what he has done in his career. I have disagreed with him because I have believed that he lives in the past at times. But that is not different with any older umpire that is used to doing things one way when they were coming up, now the landscape has changed and philosophies have changed. But that does not mean I have never learned from Carl or taken on his many philosophies.

Peter on the other hand, likes to insult everyone not on his level of baseball. He just seems to like insulting people because they do not agree with his position. I really do not care what his level is at all.



Windy, I have been very logical and very eloquent in challenging them. Just because you disagree, does not make it so. But Peter spends half his time trying to call people names, but I guess you consider that eloquent? Peter has been upset with me and insulted me and I for the life I me do not know why? I know I have said things over the years, but what would make someone so worried about me that they have to constantly get personal? And when you have disagreed with me, you give a resume than take issue with the points people say. You even have given examples in other sports but have yet to admit being wrong on any level to back up a point of view you hold. You call that eloquent and logical?

Windy, this was not directed at you. I in no way was talking about you specifically. I really am talking about anyone that might try to convince the rest of us that they have "achieved" certain things to keep those things in perspective. Even the things I have accomplished, I do my best to keep them in perspective. There are guys in MLB, the NFL and the NBA that you have never heard of. You could not recognize them if they walked right by you. But for the most part there are people that we know them and all their many accomplishments that have worked in at those levels for years. So there have been always people that have achieved more than you have. And there are a lot of guys that made it to those levels, only to find themselves back with the rest of the pack. You might have been there, but have you done 11 College World Series as an official that I saw speak at the IHSA Convention? You tell me why he is so humble?

Peace

L.E.A.R.N. 2 R.E.A.D.
 

I replied to Jurassic Referee. That would be the reference to his name IN THE VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH.

I did not read this post, since you couldn't be bothered to read mine. It was directed to someone else.

Jurassic - This is for you, no one else...
 

[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you can explain to me exactly how I'm using venom when I very accurately quote the names and phrases used by your "Officials of Accomplishment"? For instance, "Big Dog" is Peter's term, not mine.

Or maybe are you talking to Peter, and his "ilk", about the name calling? I'm just repeating what I read. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nope, I was talking to you...at least you were intelligent to read the entire post and understand the reference. I don't think I have ever been accused of implying that "the other umpire" was logical or eloquent.

You are smart enough to realize the implications of "Master" or "O Umpire of Accomplishment". Your purpose was sarcastic AND demeaning. I'm just surprised that you would go down that road after our little adventure a couple of weeks ago. I don't care what past you have with those members, I disdain hypocrisy. Don't tell one member to refrain from contributions that don't add to the discussion, when you do the opposite. You called me on it and I've attempted to add more than detract. At least your discusssion with me always included a relevant argument to the topic. I may not have agreed, but I respected the fact that you challenged it and didn't turn it into a personality war. I always respect those that can argue well - logically and eloquently. I'm just at a loss to what your cause is here.

Re: Jurassic - This is for you, no one else...
 

Maybe you can explain to me exactly how I'm using venom when I very accurately quote the names and phrases used by your "Officials of Accomplishment"? For instance, "Big Dog" is Peter's term, not mine.

Or maybe are you talking to Peter, and his "ilk", about the name calling? I'm just repeating what I read. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nope, I was talking to you...at least you were intelligent to read the entire post and understand the reference. I don't think I have ever been accused of implying that "the other umpire" was logical or eloquent.

You are smart enough to realize the implications of "Master" or "O Umpire of Accomplishment". Your purpose was sarcastic AND demeaning. I'm just surprised that you would go down that road after our little adventure a couple of weeks ago. I don't care what past you have with those members, I disdain hypocrisy. Don't tell one member to refrain from contributions that don't add to the discussion, when you do the opposite. You called me on it and I've attempted to add more than detract. At least your discusssion with me always included a relevant argument to the topic. I may not have agreed, but I respected the fact that you challenged it and didn't turn it into a personality war. I always respect those that can argue well - logically and eloquently. I'm just at a loss to what your cause is here. [/B][/QUOTE]Windy, read all the posts again. All I did was quote someone elses' words. Not mine- someone elses. For instance, someone else called me "feable(sic)-minded" in one of his posts in another thread. Now some people might have taken that the wrong way, and think that it might have been demeaning- but I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. I'll certainly try to refrain from calling people names, but I also don't think that it's just as wrong when I point out the other people that are doing so.

Now do you seriously want to know what my cause is? Well,lemme tell you. My cause is that I sureashell don't want to see this board go the way of McGriffs. Whether it's the basketball or baseball side, I don't want the "Observers" of the world posting their crap and hatred here too, even if they do it under another name. I'm with you- I don't like hypocrisy either. I also don't like elitism. I sureashell have enough common sense to know that some people posting in this forum are a heckuva lot more experienced, capable, more knowledgeable and just all-around better umpires than a lot of the other umpires that post here. And always will be. Having said that, there is still no damn way in the world that gives the better umpire the right to dump on any of the other guys asking questions or trying to make a point here. Help them. Don't tell them to shut up and stop posting because they don't know what they're talking about. That's just wrong, imo. What may seem like something that's very basic to you, Windy, may be something that these other guys have never heard of before. They have to learn too. Give them that chance before you judge and dismiss them.

Now I have to also say, Windy, that I didn't really direct the above comments at you. Lately, I think that you have attempted to add more than subtract- and I think that you have done that. I've learned a few things from you- which is why I come over here and lurk in the first place. You've also refrained too from a lot of the extraneous attacks on Rut lately. There's nothing the matter with arguing with him. Hell, Rut and I have had some dandies in the past, and we will probably have some in the future too- but when we're done with 'em, we're done. Just going after him for the sheer sport of it,or just to try and antagonize him, doesn't really add much to this board, or say much about the person trying to do that either imo.

I'm off the bandwagon now. Hopefully, I can disappear back to the basketball board now and you guys will never have to put up with me again. I hope so too.

Re: I do not think I have even mentioned your name?
 

Rut;

If you want to know why you are not taken seriously, the above statement says it all. No one else would assign to your writings the words "logical" and "eloquent." Only you believe that about yourself.

An official must know how he is perceived by others. For instance, I know that most on the board perceive me as an a$$hole and worse. If you think that anyone thinks of you as logical and eloquent...

I can only say that you are delusional.

Peter

Re: Re: I do not think I have even mentioned your name?
 

Obsessive-compulsive disorder

Definition:
An anxiety disorder characterized by an inability to resist or stop continuous, abnormal thoughts or fears combined with ritualistic, repetitive, and involuntary defense behavior.

Taken from:
http://www.healthcentral.com/mhc/top/000929.cfm

See a doctor. Really.

Little League umpires
 

Others have insisted that I am compulsive about the atrociousness of LL umpires.

You must be a LL umpire to have taken such offense.

You may have opened a can of worms.

When the editor first assigned me my moniker four years ago, it was simply His Holiness. I immediately adopted it with great pride for it had been bestowed upon me by a recognized big dog.

That offended a number of posters of the Catholic persuasion. In a very rare moment of sensitivity for me, I accepted a promotion to His High Holiness so I would not be confused with the man who umpires in a dress.

Okeedokee.